0:00

If you have an interest in

0:02

financial literacy, that includes learning about

0:04

the world of non-fungible tokens or

0:06

NFTs. Now there's

0:08

going to be polarized response

0:10

to this. Some people are highly

0:13

interested in learning about NFTs, others

0:16

are quick to disregard it. But

0:18

if financial literacy is the objective,

0:21

then learning the foundational

0:23

elements of NFTs is

0:25

imperative. Today, Harvard

0:28

Business School professor Scott

0:30

Duke-Commoner along with Web3

0:32

expert Steve Kaczynski join

0:35

us to explain

0:37

at a deep fundamental level

0:40

what exactly NFTs are. Welcome

0:42

to the Afford Anything podcast. You

0:44

can afford anything but not

0:46

everything. Every choice carries a

0:49

trade-off and this show is about optimizing

0:52

money, time, focus, attention and

0:54

all other limited resources. I'm your

0:56

host Paula Pant. I trained in

0:58

economic reporting at Columbia University and

1:01

I help you focus on

1:03

what matters. Today, as I

1:05

mentioned, Harvard Business

1:07

School professor Scott Duke-Commoner

1:09

joins us for a

1:12

no frills, no

1:14

BS explanation of

1:17

the world of Web3 and

1:19

NFTs. Now learning about NFTs

1:21

enhances financial literacy by virtue

1:23

of introducing concepts such as

1:26

blockchain technology, decentralized

1:28

finance or DeFi and

1:31

digital assets. Understanding

1:33

these concepts is central to

1:35

understanding how to navigate both

1:37

finance and technology. NFTs can

1:39

of course be highly speculative

1:41

and volatile, but they do

1:43

pose a potential for

1:47

diversification and profit if that

1:49

is something that you choose to

1:52

allocate a portion of your portfolio into. There

1:54

are many good reasons why you may or

1:56

may not want to do that, but

1:59

learning about Earnest you. And.

2:01

Blockchain technology and but three. Give.

2:04

You arms, you, With.

2:06

A solid bedrock of information. from

2:08

which you can make an informed. Thoughtful.

2:12

Decision. This. Is an emerging

2:14

asset class with significant risk, and it

2:16

is also a topic that has. Significant.

2:20

Cultural and economic impacts. including.

2:23

It's impact on the way in which people

2:25

invest in. Arts. So.

2:27

As you would like to

2:29

understand this intersection between finance,

2:31

technology and culture. As. Well

2:34

as to enhance your financial literacy. You.

2:36

Will enjoy today's. Episode with Harvard

2:38

Business Professor Got To Commoners

2:40

and Web Three experts Kaczynski,

2:45

I see this guy I've heard that about.

2:47

I. Say. It will have.

2:49

Thank you for joining us. You.

2:51

Know it's rare for me to have

2:53

to guests on the show at the

2:55

same time so I would love for

2:57

each of you to introduce yourselves one

2:59

at a time before we dive into

3:01

today's very deep conversation about and a

3:03

season web three. I'm

3:05

Scott Commoners. I teach at Harvard Business

3:08

School in the entrepreneurial management units. I

3:10

teach making Markets or curse about marketplace

3:12

design in the just recently co launched

3:14

or first ever course on Web Three

3:16

called Building Web Three Business. And

3:18

then I'm also a research partner at a

3:20

sixteen. the crypto. Where. I

3:23

work and will get us to buy a

3:25

team of other researchers and and broader collaboration

3:27

with the from and on. Foundational questions and

3:29

in Crypto and Crypto Marketplace Design. We coauthor

3:32

the first ever Harvard Business Review article in

3:34

In a Tease a couple of years ago

3:36

and then we just finished and published the

3:38

Everything Token which is a a book that

3:40

talks about what enough to use holly, create

3:43

value and then how you can build businesses

3:45

around them. And or build them

3:47

into your businesses. Also. Quicker

3:49

disclaimer and disclosure notes. Steven.

3:52

I both collect and pulled digital assets of

3:54

various forms including lots and lots of In

3:56

F T's or and we also advise companies

3:59

in the space. Helping think about

4:01

their their faces, challenges and puzzles. Also

4:03

a sixteen. The is a registered investment

4:05

visor with the Securities and Exchange Commission

4:07

so none of this is are you

4:09

business legal tax for an investment advice.

4:11

My name is Steve to the and

4:13

ski My experience in web three and

4:15

and if he's was. I started their

4:17

full time a couple years ago. I.

4:20

Host a daily morning show recovered the

4:22

news of the day called Coffee with

4:25

Kept in Scotland. I coauthored the first

4:27

Harvard Business Review article about an empty

4:29

together in November of Twenty Twenty One.

4:32

I. Also do consulting including working with

4:34

Starbucks, is the community lead on

4:36

Starbucks Odyssey, their Web Three and a

4:39

T program as well as a

4:41

brand that's needed to web Three called

4:43

Doodles And of course recently are

4:45

coauthored the Everything Token with Scott

4:47

speaking. A Foundational Questions That are

4:49

the most foundational Question: What

4:51

Is an Amnesty? It's. Sort

4:53

of a a record. This is. You.

4:56

And will talk about with the you isn't a second. Own.

4:59

This digital asset. And

5:01

that to that be attached to other

5:04

information or or media right? So the

5:06

digital deed to and associated image or

5:08

could be a physical get this is

5:10

as a digital deed to. Either.

5:12

If the right to claim a physical item

5:14

or do have a a digital deed to

5:16

a hoodie you can later collect from my

5:18

from whoever selling as we even occasionally seem

5:20

like an F T's used with scenes things

5:22

like houses like you to digital deed the

5:24

but actually acting like a transfer of a

5:26

deal then the other thing to think about

5:28

is like what does it mean to say

5:31

you own a digital record with had digital

5:33

goods of a for for years radio there's

5:35

been music files on on computers and like

5:37

your i tunes a coward or you spot

5:39

a fi. It. We have lots

5:41

of images we the course stored in all the

5:43

social media platforms under the sun right your my

5:45

facebook profile as was full of images and so

5:47

forth. But. The

5:49

difference is. That. in

5:51

those context is actually very hard to define

5:53

property rights so we can digital goods your

5:56

pre and f t's it's been really hard

5:58

to sort of say what it means actually

6:00

own something. If I own a digital image, or

6:03

rather, I have a digital image on my computer, and

6:05

I say I want to sell it to you or

6:07

transfer it to you, give you ownership of it, what

6:10

does that even mean? If I email you a copy,

6:12

I still have a copy on my computer, presumably, and

6:14

then maybe you trust me not to resell it because I'm

6:16

the original seller. But then if you want to sell it

6:19

to somebody else, how do they trust

6:21

that you're going to delete the copy? And how

6:23

do you even know who owns what? It's

6:26

been very difficult to do market design

6:28

around digital goods for precisely

6:30

this reason, that when using

6:33

or accessing the good is sort of the same

6:35

as copying it, you

6:37

can't really define an owner very precisely.

6:40

And so NFTs, oh, by the way, the

6:42

term stands for non-fungible token, non-fungible

6:44

in the sense that each one is individually

6:46

distinct. A

6:48

non-fungible token is a

6:50

way of creating essentially like a

6:52

ledger record that is a token, it

6:55

represents ownership, it's a thing that can be passed

6:57

from one person to the other, to another, or

6:59

stored in your personal account. And

7:02

you can verify consistently who owns

7:04

it. And so when

7:07

I instantiate, I create a non-fungible token

7:09

associated to an image, what I'm really

7:11

doing is saying, look, I

7:13

am creating an asset, a digital record,

7:16

that whoever owns this

7:18

digital record, they have a computer account that

7:20

controls the record and can determine how it's

7:22

used and can verify that they are the

7:25

owner. They as the

7:27

owner of, sort of the record, also own the

7:29

image in the same way that like when you

7:31

write a paper deed to say you own this

7:33

piece of physical property, it's

7:35

standing in for being able to just like hand someone the

7:37

property because it's kind of hard to hand someone a house.

7:40

Yeah, and I would just very quickly build on

7:42

that with an analogy that we really like. Imagine

7:45

you go to a museum and you see a

7:47

beautiful painting on the wall. That painting

7:49

is worth a tremendous amount of

7:51

money. Now you can take a picture of that

7:53

painting, but that picture is not worth anything at

7:56

all. You could buy a print in the gift

7:58

shop and it's not worth really any. anything

8:00

at all either. The reason why the one

8:02

on the wall is worth so much money

8:04

is because the museum owns it. It's the

8:06

original and they can prove both

8:08

of those things and up until recently

8:11

it was impossible or nearly impossible without

8:13

a tremendous amount of effort to prove

8:15

the ownership of digital property but now

8:17

to Scott's point owning those digital property

8:19

rights actually leads to so many applications

8:21

that could fundamentally disrupt a

8:23

variety of industries almost everything we

8:25

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Indy. How

12:04

do NFTs differ from other

12:06

forms of blockchain technology? Because

12:08

my understanding is that blockchain

12:11

technology is fundamentally a recordkeeping

12:14

methodology and that on

12:17

blockchain, you can have a

12:19

ledger in which you record

12:21

transactions and record

12:23

ownership rights. I'm not

12:25

sure we would say they differ.

12:27

They're actually an application of this

12:30

ledger technology. So a blockchain is

12:32

a large digital and decentralized, typically

12:34

ledger. So it's a system

12:36

of recordkeeping that keeps track of who owns what

12:38

in digital space, exactly the same way you might

12:40

maintain a bank ledger or something of the sort.

12:43

Except modern blockchains are often very generalizable. You

12:45

can do more with them, like you know,

12:48

run, store software and execute the software as

12:50

part of the ledger. And

12:53

NFTs are one particular category of record.

12:55

Two very common record types are

12:57

fungible tokens and non-fungible tokens. Fungible

13:00

tokens, most cryptocurrencies are of this

13:02

format. Any two units

13:04

are sort of exchangeable and interchangeable. Non-fungible

13:07

tokens, you sort of instantiate an individual record

13:10

for each type of ownership or item or

13:12

instance of ownership you want to track. And

13:15

then the ledger, indeed, exactly as you say,

13:17

keeps track of who owns it. And that's

13:19

what enables this sort of synchrony and clarity

13:21

of ownership. I have an NFT and then

13:23

I send it to Steve, right? Maybe it's

13:25

an NFT associated to an image or it

13:27

could be an NFT associated with digital ticket,

13:29

right? I got a ticket to a concert,

13:31

but it turns out I can't go. So

13:34

I send my ticket to Steve. The blockchain

13:36

ledger records securely

13:39

and verifiably that the digital ownership

13:41

record in my account has been

13:43

transferred to Steve's account. And

13:46

many of the most popular blockchains today

13:48

have the additional feature of being public,

13:50

right? And so, for

13:52

example, if somebody just wanted to

13:55

give out a restaurant discount or

13:57

something to your restaurant. right

14:00

next to the concert venue and you wanted to give out

14:02

a discount to anybody who had a ticket, you

14:04

could verify ticket ownership in the same way you

14:06

could look at a physical ticket. You can verify

14:09

that these digital tickets are real using

14:12

the blockchain without having to interact with the

14:14

venue or with Ticketmaster and whoever. And so

14:16

it captures actually a lot of that intuitive

14:20

interaction and third party opportunity

14:22

that physical tickets have. And

14:25

then the other thing, just sort of thinking

14:27

again about the way the ledger works here, because

14:30

blockchains are fundamentally like software

14:32

platforms and by design they're

14:35

interoperable, which means you can

14:37

use what's on them and cross many different

14:39

platforms. They're technology standards.

14:42

An individual can on their website interact

14:44

with the stuff that's on the blockchain.

14:47

You can create higher order and

14:49

more generalized experiences on top of

14:52

blockchain records. This idea of like

14:54

the NFT staircase, they start with

14:56

simple ownership, but because they live

14:59

on these big public interoperable

15:01

software databases, you can actually

15:04

build more and more on top of them

15:06

in a way that creates additional value. It's like the

15:08

fungible versus non fungible is like, Hey, I could trade

15:10

you $1 for $1, one

15:12

grain of rice for one grain of rice, one Bitcoin

15:15

for one Bitcoin. But you wouldn't trade me your puppy

15:17

for my puppy because your puppy is non fungible. That's

15:19

your dog. And so, when you think

15:21

about it that way, or my ticket, like if you

15:23

have a front row ticket to a concert, it is

15:25

non fungible to the ticket in the upper deck. And

15:28

in many ways, that's the distinction between, sort

15:30

of like maybe think of a fungible general admission ticket.

15:32

And once you start to think about those applications,

15:34

it opens up why you care about

15:36

owning maybe one of these versus trading

15:39

one Bitcoin for another Bitcoin or anything else.

15:43

Let's say that you have a in the physical world,

15:45

you have a home that is valued at $300,000. The

15:50

cash value of that home $300,000, that is

15:52

fungible, the same 300,000 pile of $300,000 single

15:55

dollar bill. is

16:00

exchangeable for any other pile of $300,000

16:03

single dollar bills, right? By

16:06

contrast, that particular home which

16:08

your grandma lived in is

16:11

non-fungible. It's a tremendous analogy

16:13

actually. Beautiful analogy. I

16:16

love this. The non-fungibility can also see where

16:18

differences in value might come from, right? So

16:20

if it's the house that your grandmother lived

16:22

in, you might put strong idiosyncratic value and

16:25

want to own that house and

16:28

want to own the associated deed to that

16:30

house more than some other house and more

16:32

than other people would value this particular house.

16:35

And so it's very much like NFTs are

16:37

about property rights. They're about giving digital goods

16:39

the same type of property infrastructure that we

16:41

have for physical goods and then enabling people

16:44

to acquire those goods and make use of

16:46

them in digital space. Can

16:48

you elaborate on the NFT staircase? You

16:51

know, we've established that an NFT

16:53

is a digital record of some

16:55

unique digital asset. But how then

16:57

can a staircase get built that

17:00

layers additional value on top of

17:02

that? This is one of the

17:04

wonderful parts about it is that it is

17:06

a flexible brand asset because it is software.

17:08

So right now, we'll kind of build it

17:10

out with maybe the ticket example as one

17:12

to give you the steps and then we'll

17:14

kind of go up them. You have ownership,

17:16

which is the basic function of the blockchain.

17:18

It proves infallible digital ownership through blockchains. Then

17:20

you have utility, which are things you can

17:22

build on top of them. Then you have

17:25

identity, something that you maybe tied to that.

17:27

Then we have community. And then finally, we

17:29

have evolution. And you know, the way

17:31

it sort of like builds up the staircase, I

17:34

would say is very different than say, you know, the

17:36

way a ticket is used now. So right now when

17:38

you use a ticket, maybe you go in, you scan

17:40

that QR code, and then you throw it away. Like

17:43

that's the end of the use of the ticket. But

17:45

right now, the way a ticket works is obviously you

17:47

own the ticket, right? You then have

17:49

the utility of going to the event, right? That

17:51

is something you do. But really think

17:54

about any sports team you like, you probably have

17:56

a little bit of an identity tied to them,

17:58

right? I went to the Ohio State University. I

18:00

love the football team. So I have an

18:02

identity tied around it. And when you elevate

18:04

to community, if I'm walking through the Denver

18:06

airport and I see someone with an Ohio

18:08

State shirt, I will yell OH. They

18:10

will yell I-O. We've never met. We'll never

18:12

meet again. It could be a good person.

18:14

It could be a bad person. I don't

18:16

know. But that's all we had by the

18:18

way, wanted to be in an airport with

18:20

Steve to watch this happen. I've heard versions

18:22

of this story before. I'm so curious. Sorry,

18:24

go ahead Steve. Oh, and it's absolutely happened.

18:26

But what makes it great is like, you

18:28

know, you start to talk about

18:31

like the flexibility of it. And it's like, okay,

18:33

like Scott's example where let's say you have this

18:35

identity and this community tied around it. But maybe

18:37

a bar that's across the street from the Ohio

18:39

Stadium or in the same neighborhood, because it's obviously

18:42

on a campus, says we want to be the

18:44

bar of anybody who has season tickets to Ohio

18:46

State. So maybe that NFT being a valuable thing

18:48

instead of being a punch ticket or a QR

18:50

code you throw away, they would say, walk into

18:53

this bar, scan it, and you get access to

18:55

a special area because you are a season ticket

18:57

holder and we are forming the community of Ohio

18:59

State. You know, you

19:01

could picture the same thing in any sports team.

19:03

Similarly, if you're not a sports fan, an example

19:06

we sometimes like to use is like, think about

19:08

theater, right? Like, I'm a theater fan. Like, I

19:10

love Broadway. I went to

19:12

see Hamilton. It was one of the best things

19:14

I've ever seen live. Well, if Lin-Manuel Miranda said,

19:16

hey, when I did the Heights, I

19:19

was still coming up and people were figuring me out.

19:21

He could say, anybody who went to the Heights can

19:23

now cut the line and get to go to Hamilton.

19:25

I'm able to let you get access to that because

19:27

we can verify infallibly you bought this ticket, you own

19:29

this ticket, or even take it a step back. The

19:33

most popular artist in the world right now is

19:35

Taylor Swift. If you want to go to a

19:37

Taylor Swift concert, you're probably buying on secondary from

19:39

somebody who bought it at drop and is gouging

19:42

you on secondary. But if she had NFTs to

19:44

her top fans, she'll be able to give them

19:46

first access and even other access, like an opportunity

19:48

to buy exclusive merchandise. So you

19:51

can quickly see how this identity community and this

19:53

brand building can be built on top of it.

19:56

And Then to touch on the evolution part of it. you know, what's

19:58

great about NFTs is that they're not just a brand. When you

20:00

own them because of that identity and community

20:02

aspect, you inherently have a feeling about it

20:04

that you want to see succeed you. The

20:06

sports team example. you know if you see

20:09

the coat and doing good job people are

20:11

online yellen for his job which I'm not

20:13

necessarily advocating for, but it's because you want

20:15

that seem to improve. What in Nfc holder

20:17

will do is they will give you the

20:19

answers to a focus group question without you

20:21

even having to ask them because they know

20:23

what they want to see as somebody who

20:25

is a fan of your brand and so

20:28

you can see where a brand traditional it's.

20:30

Traditional brand like up Starbucks or a Nike

20:32

or a sports team or anybody could build

20:34

around and if he's in the city ownership.

20:36

to say all Jeep owners can get together

20:38

and some week as they love their Jeeps

20:41

and find a way to kind of build

20:43

utility around it and you know the examples

20:45

go on and on. But that small thing

20:47

of digital ownership and digital property rights can

20:49

extend because what it does it lets you

20:52

find your tribe everywhere and and just put

20:54

like one last point on it. I mean

20:56

I see it in like see the Starbucks

20:58

Odyssey community where you know there are people

21:00

from California who are friends with people from

21:03

Chicago who never would have met is the

21:05

word and that server together And in fact

21:07

Scott nice met because he held a neutral

21:09

Tolkien. To. A community that we like.

21:11

We have never met in person and yet we

21:13

wrote a book together. So. I.

21:15

Think those are examples of legacy Davis still

21:17

never met in person, we have never met

21:19

and for me but unlike literally thousands of

21:22

hours assume calls for we have never actually

21:24

been vs. And

21:26

it's it's It's the perfect example of like

21:28

and it sees where. We found something that

21:30

we white, he had utility, we liked, We

21:32

built a sense of identity around it. We

21:34

met in a community shared space which was

21:36

a X Twitter space that we met online

21:38

and we became friends. and then we wrote

21:40

a book together. and it's example of like

21:42

how these things can all sort of coalesce

21:44

into one arm. So we're of living example a

21:47

be on a Pc or case with. That's kind of

21:49

how it can turn from just a thing, you own

21:51

it, just. it's more than just a monkey picture on

21:53

the internet. it's an entire brand as as you can

21:55

build around. so

21:58

soon all those examples that you go when

22:00

I'm imagining the Swifties or

22:03

Broadway fans or sports fans,

22:07

for that to really permeate

22:09

into the culture

22:11

of everyday life, there would have to

22:13

be mass adoption, mass use of NFTs

22:15

from the average

22:18

individual. Why has

22:20

that not happened yet? What are the barriers?

22:22

Because right now, NFTs

22:25

and this entire world of

22:27

blockchain and cryptocurrency seems to

22:29

be something that is relegated

22:31

to one very niche corner of the

22:33

internet, where it's a little bit like

22:36

rock climbing, the people who are into it are

22:38

obsessed with it. And then everybody else

22:40

has like no relationship to it whatsoever.

22:42

I love

22:45

your analogies, by the way, your analogies are

22:47

phenomenal. Your analogies are so on point. And

22:49

as someone who has, for many phases of

22:51

my many different life been a

22:53

completely obsessive rock climber. Perfect,

23:00

perfect analogy. First of all, your

23:03

question is sort of like, why mass adoption hasn't happened. And

23:05

I'll talk about that in a second. But I do want

23:07

to point out that one of the things that's sort of

23:10

magical about web three, is that there's

23:12

a different paradigm of accounts. Like what

23:14

you as a user have is different

23:16

from what you have in web two

23:18

and sort of classic internet platforms and

23:20

classic internet platforms. And

23:22

every website you go to, whether it's, you

23:24

know, a social media platform, or,

23:27

you know, a shopping site, or something, you

23:29

have basically a separate account, we're starting to

23:31

see, by the way, a small number of

23:33

cross cutting accounts, like you can think about

23:35

like shop pay. So a lot of independent

23:37

retailers now use shop pay for the checkout

23:39

flow, and shop will store your checkout information.

23:41

And so when you land at another shop

23:43

pay retailer, it'll just text you a confirmation

23:46

code and import all of your payment information.

23:48

Right. And that's pretty cool, right? That saves

23:50

a lot of time, you don't have to

23:52

create A separate payment account on this website, you

23:54

might never go back to, because you have one sort

23:56

of master payment account that can be used on many

23:58

different websites. When three is

24:01

sort of a generalization, a bad idea.

24:03

You. Control A set of. Digital.

24:06

Accounts which are awesome, Cold wallets.

24:09

Instead. Of creating a new account

24:11

for each website you log into you

24:13

take this your your well as your

24:15

digital accounts and connected to each website

24:17

and if it loads information from there.

24:20

And so one thing that's your special about it

24:23

is it means once you acquire your first and

24:25

as ticket or something like this right if you

24:27

you you're attending a concert for which the tickets

24:29

happened to be an F t's you set up

24:31

one of these accounts, you set up a wallet.

24:34

And now, at least in principle you have

24:36

an account the can be used throughout other

24:39

web three applications later and so they're actually

24:41

used to serve like a potential for a

24:43

much stronger flywheel there and on some dimension

24:45

because. You see that just

24:48

for an article about this Project Syndicate recently

24:50

that. Once you join the into

24:52

one of these web three applications receive you acquire

24:54

and and f t for some reason now suddenly

24:56

you can have and use and have to use

24:59

for other reasons and indeed you know that ticket

25:01

you have. You can start engaging in all sorts

25:03

of various activities built on top of it. If.

25:07

You know, some fan creates an online stand

25:09

channel for everyone who holds a season ticket

25:11

pass. You can take your season ticket passage

25:13

just like direct imported over there without having

25:15

to do any additional efforts. You just basically

25:17

use your wallet loggins a log into the

25:20

chat channel to make an analogy on that.

25:22

It's like I used to work with Deathly

25:24

Hot Pockets is one of our brands. In

25:26

one of my favorite example, when like the

25:28

Hot Pockets unsurprisingly targets tamers right they want

25:30

to talk to gamers, they sponsor and are

25:33

you know energy which is is beginning team

25:35

which is like a giant. Sponsor of approach

25:37

and stay with Still certainly do that,

25:39

but imagine of Hot Pockets wanted to

25:41

know People were absolutely positively gamers. Well

25:43

what if they said everybody who bought

25:45

the most recent fortnight Skyn can connect

25:47

Fat Wallet Because that's where the fortnight

25:50

Skyn I exist to their website and

25:52

get a twenty percent discount. Like is

25:54

that like simple for the brand building

25:56

to say. Now we can with certainty

25:58

say the person making this. He.

26:00

Is in the gaming because we know for

26:02

a fact residents hey this person might be

26:04

happen to stumble upon the gaining team. or

26:07

maybe we'll see maybe they won't it's we

26:09

know that are gaining right now actively and

26:11

spending money and ecosystem. But Scarlets continue. Know.

26:13

It or years as a great soon as the

26:15

saying like hot pockets if they're trying to market

26:17

the gamers with the have to do right now

26:20

is very abstract right? They like go to a

26:22

web platform like Facebook and they say look we're

26:24

trying to market the gamers and face before will

26:26

sell them something like okay you're looking for your

26:28

twenty to thirty five year olds in these demographics

26:30

are the A loot the tell you something that

26:32

lets you sort of. Target the

26:34

gamers in this very abstract and indirect way

26:37

where he really lucky face purple. Know this

26:39

person's active in these gaming groups, but but

26:41

when it be nicer if hot pockets just

26:43

say look if you're an active gamer, come

26:45

to our site, connect your gaming accounts and

26:47

were like give you rewards based on the

26:49

stuff you've collected. By that would

26:51

be like a so much more direct, like

26:53

new intermediary and and actually answering the question

26:55

that they're trying to answer in the first

26:57

place rather than having to sort of vector

26:59

into it in this abstract web. But

27:02

okay, so. If. It has all this

27:04

why are people doing it on the So

27:06

There are a bunch of challenges first of

27:08

all. and and. In. A week we talk

27:10

about this of along the book. First

27:13

of all, With. Three Technology

27:15

is currently very early. In.

27:17

You're like well you know it's been around for

27:20

ten years. has the but the internet ten years

27:22

in was also early. great if we think about

27:24

relative to what people do with the internet now

27:26

and like all the ways to better their lives

27:28

right? The the internet proceeded smartphones by a wide

27:30

margin and smartphones are have a lot of us

27:32

interact with much of the internet today. It

27:35

when three tech his early and in

27:37

particular for many people and for many

27:40

applications that that exist on the technology

27:42

today. you have to

27:44

interact very close to the rails of the

27:46

system it's very inaccessible to the average user

27:48

because you have to understand the technology what's

27:50

going on you have to sort of understand

27:52

how the block chain works and like how

27:54

you interact with that how do basically it

27:57

affects send a message to the ledger telling

27:59

it to do update and so forth. You're

28:01

not like writing computer code to do this, but

28:03

you're still, you know, interacting with things

28:05

that come out in like binary strings and

28:07

stuff. It's very, it's confusing. We're like in

28:09

the Linux era right now. Yeah, we're starting

28:12

exactly. We're sort of in a Linux era. By

28:14

the way, remember, Linux is actually, you know, there

28:16

was a Linux era, but we also live in

28:18

the Linux era today, right? The open source Linux

28:21

platform basically won a lot of like server and

28:23

platform wars. And so there's a sense in which

28:26

it was the domain of people who were

28:28

really into these like open source and like sort

28:30

of rails of the system project. But actually the

28:32

fact that it was this big open source ecosystem

28:34

actually enabled it to create a lot of value.

28:37

And then sort of in the Linux era, and

28:39

there's a second challenge on top of that. Oh,

28:43

and especially as a side note, so much

28:45

of crypto to this point has been financialized,

28:47

but there's also, you know, sort of an

28:50

accessibility problem on that dimension, right? Like a

28:52

lot of the early experimental NFT products were

28:54

things that were very by design,

28:56

like sort of were very small supply,

28:59

they were and they were became very

29:01

quickly expensive, right? For better or worse,

29:03

right? And so not

29:05

only did you need a lot of technical

29:07

understanding and savvy and experience to be

29:09

able to interact with this market, but

29:11

for many people also, you needed

29:14

a fair amount of financial capital, all of

29:16

these things, you know, made it very hard to access.

29:18

But we also think, you know, at least, Steven,

29:21

I hope that these are all very non equilibrium

29:23

phenomena. And when we talk to the book, like,

29:25

you know, what are digital goods, really? Like, what

29:27

are the digital goods we like mostly like to

29:29

collect, we collect, you know, songs, you know, song

29:32

tracks and souvenirs, you know, and we're imagining that

29:34

like people will get NFTs, when

29:36

they go to national parks, right, those like

29:38

national parks, stamp passports, this

29:40

is like a digitally native version of that. And

29:42

you'll be paying a dollar or two for them.

29:44

And we're already seeing the market starting to move

29:46

towards these like much more mass market, digital collectible

29:48

products and so forth. And then

29:50

there's one other big challenge here, which is that a lot

29:52

of in part, because the technology is running

29:55

so close to the rails, it lacks

29:57

a lot of the protections that currently lacks a

29:59

lot of the protections that consumers are used to

30:01

for other consumer internet products. If

30:04

I transfer an NFT to the wrong address, and

30:06

I go to an NFT platform and I want

30:08

to send an NFT to someone, I will often

30:10

get a warning. NFT transfer to

30:12

wrong address cannot be recovered. It's like you put

30:14

a thing in the mail with the wrong address

30:16

on it, and it's probably gone. Those

30:19

sorts of things are totally, account recovery is

30:21

hard. These are things that we're not used

30:24

to at all from the consumer internet. If

30:26

you lose access to even a very

30:29

secure account, there's some mechanism

30:31

at the end of the day, there's like

30:33

a human somewhere who can help you solve

30:35

it. Typically, the accounts people use to interact

30:37

with blockchains, by and large, do not yet

30:39

have those sorts of consumer protections built in,

30:42

but all of that is changed. There

30:44

are new layers being built on top that

30:47

abstract away a lot of the technological rails

30:49

and implement a lot of those consumer protections.

30:52

I think even the Linux era, as you said, that was a great

30:54

way of explaining it to the point of when

30:57

I think about, again, as someone who's 40

30:59

years old, I remember I saw Nate

31:01

Burgetsi, a comedian I love, made a joke where he

31:03

was like, when I was a kid, someone's like, do

31:05

you have a computer in your home? He's like, what

31:07

are you, a zillionaire? Because there were these tech and

31:10

cost barriers to do it. And it's like, when I

31:12

was building websites in 95, 96, 97, as

31:16

a middle schooler, if I had a line

31:18

of code off, the whole web page turned into code. If

31:20

my sister got a phone call, it kicked me offline because

31:22

everything was through the internet. And I think a lot of

31:24

times, like we have short memories to think about in

31:26

the 90s, the idea of banking

31:28

online, you would never do that. Now I

31:31

never bank offline. When you look about cell

31:33

phones, 20 years

31:35

ago, the iPhone didn't exist. Now this

31:37

morning, I ran an entire radio show

31:39

off my phone. One of our

31:41

favorite anecdotes we see is, David Letterman

31:43

giving Bill Gates a hard time, he's explaining

31:46

the internet. David Letterman says, he

31:48

says, well, you can listen to your baseball game on

31:50

the internet. Dave, you're a baseball fan. And he says,

31:52

have you heard of a radio? And he goes, yeah,

31:54

but you can listen to it anytime. And he says,

31:56

have you heard of a tape recorder? And the concept

31:59

of a tape recorder, quarter and a radio replacing

32:01

the internet is wild, but this is how these

32:03

technologies tend to evolve. And I think sooner than

32:05

we think, we'll see this thing sort of move

32:07

forward. So it's just early. I mean, there was

32:09

time when the cost and tech barrier of the

32:11

internet was way too high. And now it's, you

32:13

know, at the palm of our hands in a

32:15

six inch screen. You

32:17

know, there's something we'll drop in the show notes, but there's

32:19

a image that I have of a

32:21

print newspaper article that was written right around the

32:24

year 2000. The

32:26

headline said internet may just be a passing

32:28

fad. You

32:30

can find that about video games too, by the way. People

32:32

said video games are a passing fad. Streaming wasn't going to

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P. You and eight. And

35:05

gonna repeat. Back some of the things I've

35:07

heard to make sure that I'm understanding correctly.

35:09

So as you talk about the fact that

35:11

this is right now a little the inaccessible

35:13

it it you need to be a technical.

35:15

You need to be close to the rails

35:18

of it or what. That reminds me of

35:20

his. Before blogging became what

35:22

it is today. or really see that

35:24

the heyday of blogging was probably. Two

35:27

Thousand and Eight Two. Thousand and Ten, right?

35:29

And that was largely because they

35:31

were programs like Wordpress that made

35:33

divulging accessible to people who were

35:35

people like me who are not

35:37

tech savvy. In the personal

35:40

finance face. Ah, one of the biggest

35:42

and earliest personal finance bloggers is a

35:44

guy by the name of Shady Roth's

35:46

very, very good friend of mine. A

35:48

part of the reason that he was

35:50

early to personal finance logging it is

35:52

because he started doing it in the

35:54

days when you had a hard code.

35:56

Every your. Blog. Posts. Future.

36:00

were blogging back then. Is that essentially what's going

36:02

on right now? Were we're in the days when

36:04

you had to hard code a blog

36:06

post? That's a great analogy again. It's like, it's

36:08

like, you know, yeah, like really incredible at these.

36:11

Yeah. Yeah. It's like you do it for a

36:13

living. Yeah. It's exactly how it is. Right. It's

36:15

like hard coding and doing the blogging, by the

36:17

way, JD sounds like my people then, um, hard

36:19

coding in the blogging is, is there versus like

36:22

now, you know, the three of us could go

36:24

get a Squarespace and spin up a website tonight.

36:26

Right. And that, you know, that out of the

36:28

box software and those out of the box picks

36:31

and shovels are going to be so huge for

36:33

moving things forward. When you can tell a small

36:35

business, take this software, use it.

36:37

And now it's accessible to you to build an

36:39

entire loyalty, you know, NFT program to help level

36:42

up your business versus right now, you know, some

36:44

of the bigger brands, the Nike's, the Starbucks, the,

36:46

you know, et cetera, are really kind of looking

36:48

into, you know, you see Disney legging in a

36:51

little bit because they can, because they're able to

36:53

do it right now. Right.

36:55

So basically we're waiting for more plug

36:57

and play that, that non-technically savvy people

36:59

can, can intuitively use.

37:02

And that stuff's being deployed like in real

37:05

time right now, the first

37:07

really intuitive, no code platforms

37:10

for launching various NFT assets that I

37:12

was sort of exposed to came

37:15

out in the period we were working on this book.

37:17

And suddenly now people were able

37:20

to deploy NFTs without writing code,

37:22

but there's still a need to understand that these platforms,

37:24

even just the decisions they have you make as

37:26

you're launching your NFT collection, you still have to

37:28

understand a lot about what's going on under the

37:31

hood in order to make those sorts of decisions.

37:33

And so like, and then yet, just

37:35

very recently, we're seeing like a whole another layer

37:37

of abstraction being built on top of it. So,

37:39

so I do think the blogging analogy very apt,

37:41

you know, there was sort of write your, you

37:44

write your blog by hand that, you know, sort

37:46

of via HTML, then it was like WYSIWYG editors,

37:48

and then there's, you know, WordPress and so forth.

37:50

And so we're, we're maybe now in the WYSIWYG

37:52

era and hoping to get to WordPress soon.

37:55

Right. Yeah. So the second thing that you talked

37:58

about, which is the lack of security.

38:01

You know, I bought a few years ago, I

38:03

got a cold storage wallet

38:06

for some cryptocurrency that I held. And for the

38:08

people who are listening, that just means that it's

38:10

a digital wallet that is disconnected from the internet.

38:13

And I remember when I read the

38:15

terms and conditions, it

38:18

essentially said like, if you lose the password,

38:20

may God have mercy on your soul, right?

38:25

I mean,

38:28

those were basically the cheese and cheese that I had to

38:30

agree to. And

38:34

I remember talking to my best

38:37

friend who is a software programmer. And I

38:39

know we're talking about NFTs and not crypto

38:41

specifically. But in this conversation, she was

38:44

saying, I don't think crypto will ever be part of

38:46

our daily lives, because the only way to keep it

38:48

truly secure is by putting it in cold storage. And

38:51

if you lose

38:53

this physical, I lose physical things all

38:55

the time, I can barely keep track

38:57

of I mean, I lost

38:59

my aura ring this morning, and it is literally

39:02

supposed to be on my finger. So

39:08

given that that's where the market is

39:10

right now, how

39:12

can this security problem

39:15

be improved? I think there's

39:17

a couple things. And I think there are like

39:19

certain software is being built, like there's a software

39:21

called wallet guard, for example, that it's an extension

39:23

you in the current like existing, you know, market

39:25

where you install on your computer. And

39:27

when you go to make a transaction, it

39:30

will warn you if things seem malicious, it

39:32

will warn you if things seem wrong. So

39:34

it's like just an extra layer of security

39:36

to slow you down and say, hey, you

39:39

think this is a real link, but

39:41

it's not we've actually seen recently some

39:43

people getting hacked in some and pushing

39:45

supposedly to a platform called NBA Top

39:47

Shot, which is a digital collectible for

39:49

sort of basketball, almost digital basketball cards,

39:51

but they're live moments. And you

39:53

know, these people have been getting hacked and sending people

39:55

there. Well, if you're connecting a while to that you

39:58

had wallet guard, it would warn you that this This

40:00

is a malicious site, don't connect your wallet to it.

40:02

Things like that exist. You mentioned the cold

40:04

storage. That is an example of a key

40:07

where you need to be physically present to

40:09

approve something in your hand before

40:11

you do it. I think these sorts of

40:13

levels of security will improve, but also there are

40:15

custodial options where you can hold cryptocurrency. Coinbase says,

40:17

hey, hold it here. Yes, you still have to

40:19

trust Coinbase the same way you would trust a

40:21

bank with your money, but there are ones like

40:23

that and others that exist the same way. I'll

40:26

actually be curious to get Scott's thought on this

40:28

because I don't know if we've ever talked about

40:30

it. I think most people are

40:32

more comfortable with a custodial option where

40:35

if you're, say, Nestle and you set

40:37

up a program like this or

40:39

you're DiGiorno-Pizza and you do, I think most people

40:42

aren't going to want to say, I want to

40:44

set up my own non-custodial wallet where I control

40:46

all these assets and need a cold wallet. I

40:48

think they're going to say, Nestle, we trust you

40:50

to find a custodial partner who can hold those,

40:52

say, on your website without having to think about

40:54

it because I think the

40:57

goal, generally speaking, is the blockchain disappears

40:59

into the background and it becomes

41:02

the software that powers it, much

41:04

like a QR code, as I mentioned earlier, that just

41:06

powers the ticket. You don't say, let me go to

41:08

the football game and grab my QR code. You say,

41:10

let me go get my ticket. I think similarly, you'll

41:12

just call the asset what it is and say, oh,

41:14

I'm part of DiGiorno, I'm

41:17

a DiGiorno-Pizza head or whatever they call and you'll

41:19

just be in their platform using it and they'll

41:21

set up a custodial option. My

41:24

inclination is that's the direction things go

41:26

more so than the self-custody option, even if that

41:28

is an option. Scott, I wonder if you kind

41:30

of are aligned on that. I totally

41:32

agree. Also, I think it's important to note that on

41:35

the evolution path we're imagining for NFTs,

41:39

the need for self-custody goes down

41:41

for two reasons. One is you're

41:44

using these assets sort of like in

41:46

the ordinary course of business. Again, you're using

41:48

them as tickets to events. You're using

41:50

them as sort of coupons. You're using

41:52

them as digital wearables in like metaverse

41:54

games and things like that. Having

41:58

that wrapped in a custodial option, I think is important. sign

42:00

because both of those platforms might be the closing item, the

42:02

destroying needed message. So the idea is that the

42:04

symbiotic side quality is the silver market or the silver market. Is

42:06

that to change the product ofcat contract,

42:10

the brackets

42:19

nice to me. But we're in this coronavirus

42:23

Goblin guys the concept is another product

42:25

that's happening. But not only revitalization. So

42:28

this is a very interesting concept. And I think the

42:31

reason why we're talking about this is because it's

42:34

a little bit more precise than that. It's like you're

42:37

moving the underlying account pointers somehow. And

42:41

so the uses we're going to see for these things are

42:44

ones in which that type of architecture is often going

42:47

to be, you know, optimal, even just from a design perspective.

42:51

And again, from the user experience perspective,

42:54

I think also like very important. But I think

42:56

that the concerns

42:58

that are being addressed, you know, both

43:01

the concerns around security are less because like

43:04

you're not invested in the same way and nor are necessarily

43:07

going to be as interested in trying to capture

43:10

your stamps from your national park passport or

43:13

something like that, right? It's like this is again,

43:16

sort of a phenomenon that is, you know, sort of

43:19

very present in this, you know, sort of very unstable

43:22

equilibrium with a lot of people holding large value

43:24

assets that sort of move around a lot. As

43:28

these become sort of much more part of everyday applications,

43:30

we're going to see them being managed through

43:33

wallet platforms that look like a lot of the types

43:35

of consumer applications we see today. They're going to be

43:38

custodial. They're going to be intuitive. And

43:40

they're going to have sort of better account recovery

43:43

back end options than sort of what you see, you

43:46

know, what you were describing for a hardware wallet. And

43:49

then again, they're going to be types of assets that

43:51

are much more native and intuitive for that interaction type.

43:57

As A footnote,: there's also a lot of evolution that I'm. The

44:00

controversy: We shouldn't really be to this but

44:02

Slater see any of the. There's also a

44:04

lot of evolution in questions like how do

44:07

you do account recovery? How do you do

44:09

various forms of protection even in these like

44:11

yourself custody Solutions: As more people use the

44:13

infrastructure and it needs to become more broadly

44:16

accessible even the hardened like base versions of

44:18

these technologies people understand you have to figure

44:20

out ways to make them more usable for

44:22

the ordinary consumer. With

44:25

a custodial option at. One.

44:28

Risk is that the risk

44:30

that the underlying entity might

44:33

collapse and you're we saw.

44:35

Voyager, for example, are collapsing.

44:37

We've seen a lot of

44:40

these custodians collapse and when

44:42

that happens, the depositors who

44:44

had deposits. Enough. Custodians,

44:47

That collapsed, lost their deposits right? Will

44:49

Voyager being a perfect example out. What

44:51

we've also seen is that there is

44:53

generally miss trust us banks. And so

44:56

a couple years ago when Silicon Valley

44:58

that collapsed and then first a public

45:00

there's you know, Signature Bank and First

45:02

Republic when all of that went down,

45:05

I never at that time I started

45:07

hearing from people in this audience who

45:09

had. Deposits at. At.

45:12

Very secure. Well established major banks

45:14

like Chase Bank saying he should

45:16

I with drivers that you know

45:18

people were People were panicking and

45:20

people were ready to make bank

45:22

runs. Even that

45:24

with the collapse of just a couple of regional

45:26

banks that were. As the

45:28

icy insured so. Given.

45:31

The lack of Sts protection

45:33

given the. Risk.

45:35

Of custodial collapse. And

45:38

given what that would mean to any depositors who

45:40

are unlucky enough to be holding the bag,

45:42

how do we safeguard against all of that. A

45:46

great question. Neither See nor I nor

45:48

are regulatory experts either. So we're We're

45:50

not really qualified to speak to the

45:52

precise details of how this should work,

45:54

but at a high level, banks are

45:56

regulated and insured. You're.

45:58

the sort of centralized with quasi-centralized

46:00

entities dealing in the

46:02

web 3 space, many

46:06

of the centralized entities have actually been

46:08

on the edge of regulation.

46:12

But a common

46:15

misconception about the concept

46:18

of a free market is that a free market is

46:20

a market without rules. Even

46:22

Hayek didn't think a free market was a

46:24

market without rules. To the contrary, Hayek thought

46:26

the idea is to design the market so

46:28

that the rules enable the market to be

46:31

as free as possible in the sense that

46:33

people can engage in the types of transactions

46:35

and interactions they want. Regulation

46:38

and disclosure and probably some degree

46:40

of insurance, all of these things

46:42

are going to be very important

46:44

for custodial solutions to become broad

46:46

mainstream, especially to the extent that

46:48

this borders on financial technology applications.

46:50

I'm sure Ticketmaster is subject to

46:52

some sort of rules around what

46:55

happens if tickets evaporate or somehow

46:57

get extracted from the system. In

46:59

all of these contexts, I think we need regulatory

47:02

rules that make the system easier

47:04

and better for consumers to use.

47:07

And that's actually a necessary step, talking about

47:09

this mass adoption, that's a necessary step to

47:12

making this technology accessible and usable by everyone.

47:15

The other thing that's kind of cool about it,

47:17

related to NFT specifically, is in theory, so let's

47:20

say that Jeep released NFTs to everybody who owned

47:22

Jeep that's sort of showing their Jeep owner because

47:24

Jeep people love their Jeeps, right? And it's like

47:26

figuring out how they can all get together. And

47:29

let's say Jeep says, you know what, we don't

47:31

want to build anything on top of this or

47:33

maintain it. Well, if it's built on a blockchain

47:35

that is publicly accessible, in theory, they

47:37

could say, does anybody else want to pick this up?

47:39

And it's very easy to transfer over and Jeep doesn't

47:42

lose anything. They continue to get the brand equity of

47:44

having those out in the wild. And

47:46

the person who's taking it over can take it

47:48

over quite easily if they're willing to relinquish that

47:50

sort of brand control, which is something that's not

47:52

a super big ask if they're going to sunset

47:54

it anyway to say, hey, just prove your ownership

47:56

tokens. It makes it a little bit easier for

47:58

people to say, hey, we're shutting this down. But if

48:00

anybody wants to take control of these tokens, they're

48:03

on a public blockchain. So it actually makes it

48:05

a little more accessible than, say, a program that's

48:07

in a current digital scenario where it's like, let's

48:09

say, G-PAD, a digital program completely built on a

48:11

closed server and they shut it down. Transferring

48:13

that to someone else would be a tremendous lift. Transferring

48:15

a set of tokens that are on a blockchain to

48:17

another group, well, it's not easy. I don't want to

48:20

underplay that right now. It's a little bit easier and

48:22

more realistic to say somebody's saying, I am the biggest

48:24

G-fan in the world. I

48:26

own 74 Jeeps and I'm a multimillionaire. I want to

48:28

run this thing. Someone could do that and

48:30

then run the Jeep program all the same. So they

48:33

actually have a little bit more ability to survive. And

48:35

once you're on the blockchain, if they're not removed from

48:37

the safe face of the earth because they're immutably there,

48:40

someone theoretically could always build on top of

48:42

them even if the company gives up. So

48:44

it's a unique property of NFTs that we've

48:46

seen brands where they haven't done particularly well and

48:48

then a really intrepid sort of person comes and

48:50

picks it up and takes it over and brings

48:53

it to new success. We've

48:55

already seen this in Web3, so it's certainly

48:57

a doable thing where somebody could spin those

48:59

off even if a brand or a company goes

49:01

with NFT. So it has a different unique property there.

49:04

Yes. Let me jump in for one

49:06

more second if you don't mind. So Steve raises

49:08

a really important point, which is that these digital

49:11

assets have a form of persistence that exist. And

49:13

this is separate from the like what

49:16

happens if your custodial solution like Voyager

49:18

is fundamentally mismanaging or misrepresenting what they're

49:20

doing with the digital assets. But

49:23

just the digital assets themselves, right, like in

49:26

Web2 incarnations of digital goods, right, if you

49:28

have a

49:30

book on Kindle or sort

49:32

of a song on iTunes, that asset lives

49:34

inside the platform. And if for some reason

49:36

the platform goes down, right, like iTunes pushes

49:39

an update that bricks the system for a

49:41

day, like now you can't listen to your

49:43

music, or if Apple, sort of,

49:45

God forbid, should fold, then

49:48

everything you've stored in that platform,

49:51

you know, sort of, no longer exists,

49:53

right, you're sort of, it's a bunch of records

49:55

in a database that just sort of goes down,

49:57

it doesn't exist anymore. I'm sure Apple has

49:59

a lot of records. would do something to try and

50:01

transfer information out or whatever. But

50:05

fundamentally, the digital assets live in the platform. Pokemon

50:08

Go is maybe a better table. The Pokemon you've

50:10

collected, my brother's a huge Pokemon Go

50:12

player. If Pokemon

50:14

Go were to sunset tomorrow, those Pokemon

50:16

would disappear. There's no

50:19

life of them outside of the platform. But

50:22

with NFTs, the digital asset,

50:25

the record lives on a

50:27

public interoperable decentralized ledger. And

50:30

so if the creator leaves the picture

50:32

or whatever, the company that produced, if

50:34

you had Pokemon and NFTs and

50:36

the Pokemon company went out of business, people would still

50:38

be able to play games with their Pokemon. They'd still

50:40

be able to do things with them just like you

50:42

can with Pokemon cards. If you have

50:45

the Pokemon cards, and indeed, Pokemon cards still

50:47

going strong, but a different collectible card game

50:49

from my childhood, Star Trek TCG. Any

50:54

Star Trek TCG fans out there? Let's go. Still

50:57

a fan. The game is no longer

50:59

being produced. But of course, you can still play the game

51:01

with the cards because you have the cards. And

51:04

so blockchains give these assets a sort

51:06

of persistence that's very

51:09

much like what we're used to with physical

51:11

assets. And that means it's possible to wrap

51:13

them with new platforms, even if

51:15

the original creator goes out of business or stops innovating

51:17

on them. I

51:19

want to define a term that we've been using

51:22

throughout this conversation that we haven't actually talked to

51:24

define. And that is Web 3. So

51:26

what is Web 3? How does

51:28

it differ from Web 2? And also,

51:31

was there ever a Web 1? I

51:34

should shout out a second book by one of

51:36

my A16Z crypto colleagues, Chris Dickson, called Read Write

51:38

Own, that is really sort of like this history

51:40

of the internet that I'm about to like, you

51:42

know, borrow from a little bit here. So

51:44

there definitely was a Web 1, there definitely was a Web 2,

51:46

and we're sort of still in the middle of it. And there's

51:49

this Web 3. And these

51:51

are often organized in what are

51:53

called the Read, Write and Own

51:55

eras. So read

51:57

the early internet Web 1, you know, based

52:00

Basically, what did you have the

52:02

ability to do as an ordinary consumer? On the

52:04

internet, you could go around and read stuff. You

52:06

could go to a webpage and see things that were on

52:09

it. You could look up your

52:11

favorite finance blogger, your personal finance blogger or

52:13

something. You can read their finance blog. But

52:17

primarily, the interaction was purely

52:19

consumption of information. Unless

52:21

you were a business or the person creating the

52:23

information that others were consuming. The

52:26

web was a platform for accessing

52:29

information. The

52:35

writing phase was when you suddenly now had

52:38

the ability to write content into it as

52:40

well. It isn't read-only.

52:42

It's also now you can add. The

52:44

consumer experience becomes modern message boards and

52:46

so forth. You interact

52:49

with the content that you're consuming

52:51

in some way. You

52:53

can write and communicate with others through the

52:55

internet. Then

52:59

this web 3 era is

53:02

characterized by these wallet

53:04

accounts that we've been talking about. You yourself

53:06

own your digital assets. In the right era, in

53:09

web 2, what you created, all

53:11

this content that individuals were creating on

53:13

the internet typically lived inside of walled

53:15

garden platforms. Platforms that walled themselves against

53:17

others and to try and aggregate as

53:19

much information inside of them as possible

53:21

as a way of making

53:24

their business models grow. Leveraging

53:27

network effects to make the consumer experience.

53:29

Think Facebook. They can show you better

53:31

and better content, things you more want

53:33

to see. Also, they can show you

53:35

better and better ads. Their competitive advantage

53:37

in doing so is from having aggregated lots

53:39

of people and learn lots of things about

53:42

them. Train predictive models to figure out what

53:44

you should show whom. That gets

53:46

better the more people join. That's a network effect.

53:49

More people join the platform. The platform's

53:51

ability to create value for each individual

53:53

consumer goes up. But

53:57

the competitive advantage comes from... locking

54:00

in all of those users and locking in all

54:02

of that information and sort of growing their platforms

54:04

relative to their competitors so that their network effects

54:06

are stronger and they can sort of always continue

54:08

to provide the best version of these services. My

54:12

former student and frequent co-author, Jad Esber,

54:14

who's now a

54:16

Web3 founder, founded a company called

54:18

Kudos Labs, uses

54:20

this metaphor that in

54:22

Web2, it's like you rent an

54:24

apartment, right? You sort of create an

54:27

account on Facebook or on Twitter or something. You rent an

54:29

apartment, you put a bunch of posters on the wall. And

54:32

you form memories too, right? Those are your likes

54:34

and sort of all of the sort of content

54:36

that people and reputation you've built up there. You

54:39

form your memories, you put up your posters, and

54:41

then if you want to like move to another

54:43

platform, you have to leave all that stuff behind. You

54:46

leave your posters, all your memories like drop out of your

54:48

head. You can't take anything you've

54:50

built in a platform with you. Whereas

54:53

in Web3, you own all of that. When

54:56

you post something, that post lives in

54:58

a digital account that you control. And

55:00

when someone says, I like it, that

55:02

interaction sort of also sort of lives

55:04

in an interoperable transferable account. Now

55:06

you can move from platform to platform taking all your

55:08

posters with you. And so that's

55:10

the sort of the transformations from a

55:12

world of walled garden platforms with individual

55:14

accounts on each platform and locked in

55:16

users, right? The more you've embedded yourself

55:18

in a platform, the harder it is

55:20

to leave. In

55:23

Web3, the hope at least is that

55:25

you get to much more competitive environments across these

55:27

platforms because the users can vote with their feet.

55:29

They can just take all of their content and

55:31

move it to a platform that offers better terms.

55:33

And we've seen that happen in many different contexts

55:35

in Web3 already. But Steve, you have a great

55:37

metaphor for this, so let me hand it to

55:40

you. No, I always kind of look at it

55:42

like this, right? It's like the read write-on goes

55:44

kind of as follows. In

55:46

Web1, you were the consumer, right? You could buy

55:48

things, you could kind of read, you were the

55:50

consumer. In Web2, like, let's not mince words,

55:52

you're the product, right? They're using your information, they're selling

55:55

your data, that's what you are. In

55:57

Web3, you are part of the brand and it's a

55:59

sh... huge distinction that allows people to be

56:01

participatory and create a line incentive structures. Cause

56:03

let's face it, like if you are enjoying

56:05

that and the brand's building on top of

56:07

it, you're going to continue to interact with

56:10

it more because of that level of ownership,

56:12

identity, and community you build around it. So

56:14

it's, you know, from going from being the

56:16

consumer to the product of the brand is

56:18

a massive step forward. And to Scott's point,

56:20

I can't recommend Read Write Own enough by

56:22

Chris Dixon to people because it really sort

56:24

of lays that out in a very thoughtful

56:26

way. Yeah. Are

56:28

there any ideas on what might come next?

56:31

It is, can we predict what web

56:33

four might be or is it what comes

56:35

after own? To

56:40

infinity and beyond, maybe we skipped straight, maybe it's like windows

56:42

and we, we skipped to like, you know, you know,

56:44

web 10 or something. Um, I

56:47

think what's really an interesting concept to me

56:49

that I'm hearing more and more from web

56:51

three native brands. And I think this is

56:53

going to have to have like an evolution

56:56

to it is the concept of participatory brand-based

56:58

storytelling. That's always on meaning like, if you

57:00

own an asset, a persistent asset in an

57:02

ecosystem, like let's say you and a character

57:04

in a universe, you can build a

57:06

story around it. I was talking to someone from a

57:09

company called truth labs this morning, this

57:11

person, process gray, who is, who's created an

57:14

incredible, you know, ecosystem and the idea of

57:16

like somebody being able to have

57:18

an asset in the ecosystem, build a story

57:20

and then be inserted into it. To me,

57:22

that actually goes even beyond the ownership category,

57:25

even though it's part of web three and

57:27

something that I think I see as evolving,

57:29

I could see that becoming a new category

57:31

where you imagine being somebody who

57:33

was deployed a character that becomes a character

57:36

in the Marvel universe because you build a

57:38

story around it, you create a character around

57:40

it, whatever that is, to me, I don't

57:42

know what that's called or if that's an

57:44

entirely new category, but it's a different way

57:47

that you're going to be able to

57:49

interact with ownership that I think to me seems

57:51

like at least a half step above what we

57:53

see with web three in its current form. And

57:55

so that would probably be my thought is like

57:57

you can become the Jeep person.

58:00

who then becomes like a spokesperson, a

58:02

representative from Jeep, like never before. Um,

58:04

you know, and so I think maybe there's something to be said

58:06

about that. I don't know how to put my finger on it

58:08

because it's hard. I think that participation

58:11

with a brand is something that we see

58:14

coming from web three, but becoming a next

58:16

iteration of how you interact with them. Um,

58:18

possibly would be the next iteration of the internet. Yeah.

58:21

I like that a lot. We would call it

58:23

like read, write own immerse, right?

58:26

That somehow, you know, your

58:28

digital and physical experiences,

58:31

your ability to interact with your favorite

58:33

brands, teams, whatever, um, you

58:36

know, the ownership technology of web

58:39

three evolves and transforms that right. It puts

58:41

you in a sort of bi-directional communication with

58:43

your favorite brand. Right. Like, you know,

58:45

and, and, and incidentally on

58:47

the brand side, it gives them

58:50

the ability to have a longer and

58:52

more extended interaction with the customer. Um,

58:54

one of the things we did with some copies

58:56

of the book is we put these chips in

58:58

them that haven't attached NFT. So when you tap

59:01

the chip in the book, it like, you know,

59:03

gives you an NFT that's attached specifically to your

59:05

special copy of the book. So they were different

59:07

themes. We did them with various NFT communities. We

59:09

did some for, for friends. Um, but

59:12

like this idea that now we have a digital

59:14

imprint of people who have read the book and

59:16

they can interact with us and we can interact

59:18

with them and other people, if they want, can

59:20

innovate around. If someone else were launching a book

59:23

on web four, you know, maybe they would like

59:25

look to these people as potential early readers

59:27

and commenters. Um, that

59:29

I think is like very novel and it

59:32

lets, it lets the, the brand

59:34

continue the interaction with the customer past the

59:36

point of sale, which has always been, you

59:38

know, something that was potentially high value for

59:40

both the customer and the brand. Um,

59:43

but as Steve says, it also unlocks

59:46

this possibility of immersive interaction, right?

59:48

That you can actually

59:50

have a character in a story universe,

59:52

or you can actually

59:54

like, you know, be

59:57

a part of the, like, of the

59:59

design. of future products and so forth.

1:00:03

And maybe it was once we all have our

1:00:05

VR glasses on or something of the sort, that

1:00:08

would be a truly immersive experience in the sense

1:00:10

that when you're thinking things about a brand, you

1:00:13

can sort of experience and add those

1:00:15

into the brand or sort of submit

1:00:17

them directly. Sorry, now we're in really

1:00:19

scary tech space where we're

1:00:21

running this podcast and discussion about VR and

1:00:24

brain reading and where everyone's totally cyberplunked. Realistically,

1:00:26

we're talking about tickets to shows, but no,

1:00:28

no, but like what makes Web One, Web

1:00:31

Two, and Web Three unique is that they

1:00:33

are general purpose and they're widespread technologies. And

1:00:35

I think an immerse, just to give like one

1:00:37

more quick example of that, like, well, maybe you're

1:00:39

not a storyteller, but maybe you're somebody who really

1:00:41

likes Nike and you wear their clothes. And I'm

1:00:43

giving an example, Nike's not saying this, but like

1:00:46

looking at any clothing brand, in theory,

1:00:48

they could chip that and say, hey, like you're a

1:00:50

billboard to the world for us, so if you attend

1:00:52

a concert in our clothes, we could give you some

1:00:54

sort of credit or loyalty against it. So you're immersed

1:00:56

in the brand in the sense that they could reward

1:00:58

back to you for showing up to a show, because

1:01:00

there's a chip, they know there were 60,000 people there,

1:01:03

right? Like it's an immersive example where maybe you're

1:01:05

not telling stories, but maybe you're immersed as a,

1:01:07

you know, like people underestimate being a billboard to

1:01:09

the world for every brand and everything they wear,

1:01:11

both online and offline. And there is potentially an

1:01:13

immersion there that happens, it's isn't necessarily tied to

1:01:16

storytelling, but yeah, I like the idea of rewrite

1:01:18

own, immerse as potentially the next one, because there

1:01:20

can be built, and it makes sense because each

1:01:22

iteration of the internet is built on the last.

1:01:24

And I think that this one would be built

1:01:27

on top of that in that way. That,

1:01:29

and that makes a lot of sense as well, especially

1:01:32

as AR becomes more and more developed and more

1:01:34

integrated with our lives. I mean, the Apple Vision

1:01:36

Pro has already taken off in

1:01:38

a way that Google

1:01:41

Glasses from a few years ago never did. I

1:01:44

still have my Google Glass. And so,

1:01:46

so yeah, and

1:01:48

it's clear even that the Apple Vision Pro

1:01:50

is just version one of, you know, what

1:01:55

the gap between version one and

1:01:57

version two. 10

1:02:00

is going to be rolled apart. So

1:02:04

we're coming to the end of our time. Are there any

1:02:06

final takeaways that you would like to impart on this audience?

1:02:10

I mean, on my end, I just appreciate your

1:02:12

line of questioning and your, you know, sort of

1:02:14

grasp of the concepts in

1:02:16

a very understandable way, like you

1:02:18

very largely do our job as well or better

1:02:20

than we do. So we appreciate like all the

1:02:22

analogies kind of pointing throughout and your, your line

1:02:25

of questioning. So, you know, I appreciate anybody going

1:02:27

out and grabbing the book. And if you're on

1:02:29

a social media platform, my big ask is if

1:02:31

you grab the everything token, please tag us so

1:02:34

we can thank you personally. We have had thousands

1:02:36

of people tag us online. And we are thanking

1:02:38

every single one of them because it

1:02:40

means the world to us because our goal is

1:02:42

just to spread these ideas. And, you know, whether

1:02:44

you are somebody who is super tech savvy, or

1:02:47

you're just somebody who wants to learn and understand

1:02:49

it. It's a, you know, if you listen

1:02:51

to audible, I think it's a five

1:02:53

and a half hour listen on regular speed.

1:02:55

So fairly short, easy listen, if

1:02:57

you're looking to understand it, we really just want to

1:02:59

move this technology forward so that, you know, we can

1:03:02

enhance the lives of brands and consumers by getting it

1:03:04

in the right hands and the right ideas. So appreciate

1:03:06

you having us and hope that you know, more people will

1:03:09

check it out. Let me let

1:03:11

me say a second. Thank you. You've been an

1:03:13

incredible host and to the audience listening like you're,

1:03:15

you're awesome. And we're so excited

1:03:17

that you're curious and want to

1:03:19

learn more about this technology. And

1:03:23

again, I mean, I think this

1:03:25

is a space where intellectual curiosity

1:03:28

has a lot of dividends, because

1:03:30

there's so much new and novelty being

1:03:33

explored in web three, you know, sort

1:03:35

of it's, it's a totally different paradigm

1:03:37

for how we could have our interactions

1:03:39

on the internet, that in

1:03:41

many ways, you know, Steve and I, you

1:03:43

know, sort of believe and hope will

1:03:46

make the sort of our

1:03:48

experiences consumers and you know, sort of better

1:03:50

and more aligned, right? Sort of like the

1:03:52

the experience of being a consumer on the

1:03:54

internet, you know, with the platforms and brands

1:03:56

you interact with, like more alignment, more opportunities

1:03:59

for value creation. for all. And

1:04:01

so, you know, we'd

1:04:03

love, you know, we'd love to hear from you. We'd love your thoughts.

1:04:06

Please push us on our ideas, right? It's like, it's

1:04:08

great to hear from people like, oh my gosh, we

1:04:10

loved your book, like, you know, every single part of

1:04:12

that was perfect, like, absolutely wonderful. It's

1:04:15

in many ways even better to have people come and

1:04:17

challenge and say like, you know, okay, like we, you

1:04:19

know, this thing on page 12, like, I don't really

1:04:21

get it, like, you know, sort of like, let's, let's

1:04:23

talk about it. Because that's how we keep learning, too,

1:04:25

right? Like, you know, sort of, and, you know, I

1:04:27

was as a teacher, right, I get every year, all

1:04:29

these students who, you know, push me on really hard

1:04:31

ideas, right? And that's how we like, you sort of

1:04:33

level up and like, sort of build forward to, you

1:04:36

know, Web 3 and 3.1 and 5 and whatever

1:04:39

else is next. So thank you

1:04:41

so much. Thank you for having us. Thank

1:04:43

you for tuning in and QED. Thank

1:04:50

you to Harvard Business School Professor Scott

1:04:53

Duke-Kommeners, as well as Web

1:04:55

3 expert, Steve Kaczynski. What

1:04:57

are three key takeaways that we got from this discussion? Number

1:05:00

one, for the sake

1:05:02

of financial literacy, you

1:05:05

need to know what an NFT is. And

1:05:07

the primary takeaway

1:05:10

of this interview was

1:05:13

to facilitate a foundational understanding

1:05:15

of the root question, what

1:05:18

is an NFT? The

1:05:21

term stands for non-fungible token. Non-fungible

1:05:23

in the sense that each one is

1:05:25

individually distinct. A

1:05:28

non-fungible token is a

1:05:30

way of creating essentially like a

1:05:32

ledger record that is a token, it

1:05:34

represents ownership. It's a thing that can be passed

1:05:36

from one person to the other to another or

1:05:39

stored in your personal account. And

1:05:42

you can verify consistently who owns

1:05:44

it. Whoever owns

1:05:47

this digital record, they have a computer account

1:05:49

that controls the record and can determine how

1:05:51

it's used and can verify that they are

1:05:53

the owner. So it's a digital deed to

1:05:55

an associated image, or it could be a

1:05:58

physical good. And so an understanding... of

1:06:00

the fundamental root question, what

1:06:03

is an NFT? That is the

1:06:05

first key takeaway. Now, the

1:06:07

second key takeaway, as

1:06:09

a beginner, you hear a lot of terms,

1:06:12

decentralized finance, cryptocurrency,

1:06:15

digital ledger, Bitcoin, blockchain,

1:06:17

NFTs, and it can be

1:06:19

hard to parse through all of this new vocabulary.

1:06:22

In the second key takeaway, Scott

1:06:24

and Steve describe how

1:06:26

NFTs are an application of

1:06:29

blockchain technology. I'm not

1:06:31

sure we would say they differ.

1:06:33

They're actually an application of this

1:06:36

ledger technology. So a blockchain is

1:06:38

a large digital and decentralized, typically

1:06:40

ledger. So it's a system of

1:06:42

record keeping that keeps track of who owns

1:06:44

what in digital space, exactly the same way

1:06:46

you might maintain like a bank

1:06:48

ledger or something of the sort, except modern blockchains

1:06:51

are often very generalizable. You can do more with

1:06:53

them, like you know, run, you store software and

1:06:55

like execute the software as part of the ledger.

1:06:58

And NFTs are one particular

1:07:00

category of record. Two very common

1:07:03

record types are fungible tokens and

1:07:05

non-fungible tokens. Fungible tokens, most

1:07:07

cryptocurrencies are of this format. Any

1:07:10

two units are sort of exchangeable and interchangeable.

1:07:13

Non-fungible tokens, you sort of instantiate an

1:07:15

individual record for each type of ownership

1:07:17

or item or instance of ownership you

1:07:20

wanna track. And then the ledger,

1:07:22

indeed, exactly as you say, that keeps track of who owns

1:07:24

it. And so refining that understanding

1:07:27

is the second key takeaway. Finally,

1:07:30

key takeaway number three. In

1:07:32

this final key takeaway, we

1:07:34

discuss aspects of cryptocurrency security

1:07:36

that are geared around making

1:07:39

this investment more secure. Those

1:07:42

are three key takeaways from

1:07:44

our conversation with Harvard Business

1:07:46

School professors, Scott Duke-Commoner's and

1:07:49

Web3 expert, Steve Kaczynski. Thank you for

1:07:51

tuning into the Afford Anything podcast. If

1:07:54

you enjoyed today's episode, share it with a friend or

1:07:56

a family member. That is the single most important thing

1:07:58

that you can do to... Spread Financial

1:08:01

Literacy. If you'd like to discuss this

1:08:03

episode with members of our community, you

1:08:05

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1:08:10

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1:08:12

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