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should not be considered legal, medical, or

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anything. I'm

1:29

Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Anthony, air

1:32

quotes Nippie, Ames. And this

1:34

is A Little Bit Cultie. A

1:37

podcast about what happens when things that seem like a

1:39

great thing at first go bad. Every

1:41

week we chat with survivors, experts, and

1:43

whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly

1:45

by the people who live through them.

1:47

Because we want you to learn a few things we've had

1:49

to learn the hard way. better

2:00

keep listening to find out. Welcome to season

2:02

six of A Little Bit Cultie. Hello,

2:22

everybody, and welcome back to part

2:25

three of our Grotto NFT crypto

2:27

Bitcoin extravaganza. We're

2:29

on the threesome episode of our

2:31

three-part series. Is that what I did there? I do.

2:34

If you miss part one and two, this will not

2:36

make any sense. So go back to part one and

2:38

part two and let us know what you think. Enjoy.

2:54

So welcome back, everybody, to

2:56

part three. This is a complex

2:59

and nuanced story. Charm,

3:02

why don't we start with you? There are many,

3:04

many red flags you shared that you saw, and

3:06

you can see in retrospect, now that you know

3:08

what you're looking at. Tell us

3:10

about some of the final things that caused you

3:12

to pull away. The

3:15

beginning of the end for

3:17

me is Miami. I

3:20

flew down to go to my first in

3:22

real life grotto event around

3:25

Art Basel 2022. I

3:28

was excited. I had met three many

3:30

times. We were dating, but I had not met

3:32

so many of the other people. I really couldn't

3:34

wait. It's also the first time I was away

3:36

from my family in any sort of meaningful capacity

3:38

since my son was born. And so this was

3:40

it. This is what I picked for myself as

3:42

my first retreat. Three

3:44

had rented two houses. There was a

3:46

party house and a living house. Despite

3:49

the fact that I had

3:51

booked a hotel and I'd even paid for

3:53

it, three called me up and he insisted

3:55

that I stay in the house he

3:58

was staying in with the 33s. which

4:00

were the top collectors, which I wasn't

4:02

at the time, but he just said,

4:04

you're staying with the grotto. So I

4:06

canceled my hotel when I got there.

4:09

There was a few people there. But

4:11

the thing that really surprised me

4:13

the most was the amount

4:15

of drugs in the house,

4:17

specifically cocaine. And

4:20

it wasn't a surprise to me because there

4:22

are a ton of jokes and

4:24

memes and mentions of

4:26

cocaine in the grotto. But I guess

4:28

I didn't understand how literal that really

4:31

was and how prevalent 24 hours

4:33

a day, morning, noon, and night,

4:35

multiple plates of cocaine. And it

4:37

was sort of shocking to me

4:39

who doesn't do that type of

4:41

stuff. Three had told me previously

4:44

as a joke that he thought that

4:46

when the grotto finally came down, it was

4:48

going to be because of the DEA raid.

4:51

And again, I thought he was kidding. Like

4:53

I thought that was just bluster. And I

4:55

had been very frank with him that I

4:57

don't do that. He told me he didn't

4:59

do cocaine either. And that would prove

5:01

to be false, which I'd learned. So

5:05

going in, three was very clear

5:07

that me and him were having

5:09

a secret relationship. Three Sims never

5:11

publicly has a girlfriend is

5:14

sort of something he'd repeat to me and

5:16

tell me that that's not how the character

5:18

was written. He didn't want to make anybody

5:20

jealous or look like there

5:22

was favoritism or any impropriety in the project.

5:25

So I was floored

5:28

and surprised and

5:30

just confused when

5:32

on the first night, three who channeled

5:35

his alter ego, three Z's, really to

5:37

say, but how he bounds down the

5:40

stairs in his garish suit over the

5:42

top. And he's high five in the

5:44

grotto on the way down. And he

5:46

pulls me in and he kisses me

5:49

on the mouth in front of the

5:51

entire room. And I don't

5:53

know what to do with that, because I'm the

5:55

one who's been told there's no way, shape or

5:57

form that we're going to do any of that.

6:00

So, I don't even know what's

6:02

what, but I'm kind of excited

6:04

by it, honestly. At another point,

6:06

he discreetly holds my hand when

6:08

we're in a car with other

6:11

people. He pulls me aside several

6:13

times every day to check in,

6:15

to be close. And

6:17

even on a booze run, at one point we're in

6:19

a supermarket with another member of the grotto and when

6:21

it's just the two of us in the checkout line,

6:23

he brings up sex and contraception

6:26

and how he likes to fuck.

6:28

And I'm just confused, right? No

6:31

matter how I try and play it,

6:33

I feel like I fail. It just feels really

6:35

unfair, I think, when I look back at it

6:37

now. Because when I try

6:39

and reciprocate anything or share anything about

6:42

him with anybody else there, I get

6:44

in trouble. I get shot down. I

6:46

get told nobody can see. And

6:49

I'm trying to navigate an

6:51

impossible maze that I

6:54

just see there was never going to be

6:56

a win for me in it. And I

6:58

think I should have understood it when I

7:00

woke up one morning and one of the

7:02

other grotto gals had snuck into my room

7:04

and she was sitting at the foot of

7:06

my bed and she warns me to be

7:08

careful around three. And I'm like groggy, you

7:10

know, I'm like, what? I'm waking up and

7:12

it's the first time I've ever talked to

7:15

this person really, other than just meeting casually.

7:17

And she's like, yeah, when I

7:19

first joined the grotto, three told me that he

7:21

loved me despite the fact I'm married and it's

7:23

led to nothing but hurt. And

7:26

he's just like this with the women. And

7:29

despite somebody telling me to my face,

7:31

my thought is like, I know better.

7:34

I know him better. We are officially

7:37

seeing each other. And

7:40

I just didn't know he had been

7:42

doing this all along with everyone. And

7:45

it's stupid because there it is right in

7:47

my face, but I still continue on in all of

7:49

this. Meanwhile, like in

7:51

the other room, three's out there

7:53

jokingly talking with all the guys

7:55

about how we need more in

7:57

quote ovaries at the party. referring

8:00

to women. And this

8:02

is, again, I'm like, it's a

8:05

joke, kind of poor taste, but okay, he's

8:07

just being over the top. He swept up

8:09

in it, I guess. But this is after

8:11

the wives and girlfriends of the grotto are

8:13

by and large not invited. You had to

8:15

be in the project to attend. You had

8:17

to own certain NFTs. So there were some

8:19

women there who were investors and collectors, but

8:21

for the most part, you weren't allowed to

8:23

bring your woman. And yet we're being told

8:25

there's not enough women. Two of the members

8:27

of the grotto are encouraged to go to

8:29

a strip club and to try and pick

8:31

up strippers to bring back to the party

8:33

that night. And I just felt like it

8:36

was all kind of much and weird, like,

8:38

why can't we just all hang out and

8:40

have fun and be in the community? Like,

8:42

why do we need all this, like smoke

8:44

and mirrors and shit? Oh, but that night

8:46

we got to the party house and there's

8:48

these two really young

8:51

girls there. They're being referred to as the

8:53

party girls. And I like

8:55

kid you not, I thought these were the

8:57

strippers. I thought, Hey, I guess the guys

9:00

were successful and they brought these girls back.

9:02

And part of the reason I thought that is they

9:05

kept like changing into these really

9:07

skimpy outfits, like bikini tops and short

9:09

skirts and like every hour or so

9:12

they were in a different Philly outfit.

9:14

And I'm not even

9:16

like body shaming or slut shaming or

9:18

anything. It just felt like they were

9:21

there in some professional capacity, I guess,

9:23

because when you

9:25

tried to talk to them, they

9:27

knew nothing about the project or the art

9:30

or the blockchain or crypto. And

9:32

they simply seem to be there at

9:34

the pleasure of three and his best

9:36

friend, retro. They weren't otherwise really talking

9:38

to much of anybody. I found

9:40

out that they were 22. That is

9:42

younger. I mean, threesome

9:45

was there with it. It's his time, I

9:47

believe his 19 year old son. So people

9:49

thought it was his son's girlfriends. Like it

9:52

didn't look good and younger at the

9:54

time than his daughter.

9:56

Like so, you know,

9:58

again, I didn't know this pension of

10:00

his for these younger, younger women. So

10:02

it seemed out of character and weird.

10:05

And it wasn't just me. A lot

10:07

of the men in the grotto who

10:09

are married, who have daughters and stuff,

10:11

were trying to understand who they were

10:13

and why they were there. So

10:16

I'm just for the most part trying to have a

10:19

good time and ignore them and just do my own

10:21

thing. And then that sort of all shifts. So three

10:23

does cocaine. He ends up blaming

10:25

it on the wife of another prominent grotto

10:27

member. Oh, you know, so and so made

10:30

me do it, which is weird in itself.

10:32

Okay, you know, it's your party, it's your

10:34

place. Claim responsibility if that's what you're gonna

10:37

do, but that's how he's justifying it to

10:39

me. He's sort of being an asshole. And

10:41

then he follows the two 22 year

10:44

old girls upstairs. He's gone for

10:46

a while. I'm talking to other people. And he comes

10:48

back, he comes back down the

10:50

stairs and he's like, this is

10:53

so gross. He's touching his like fingers

10:55

together, like his thumb and his middle

10:57

finger. Like opening and closing his

10:59

hand. And he tells me that

11:01

he fingered the blonde. And then he tries to

11:04

touch me. And like, I'm

11:06

not okay right now. I'm

11:08

there with a guy who I think I'm

11:10

with and we're supposed to be in a

11:12

secret relationship. And now and threesome's doesn't have

11:14

a girlfriend and now he's with 22 year

11:16

old strippers. I don't even

11:19

understand. I'm like, that's not nice.

11:21

Even if we have no relationship,

11:23

that's not nice to do to

11:25

anybody. Female, male, otherwise

11:27

it's gross. And

11:29

like, I'm feeling like upset,

11:32

like assaulted I can tell he's trying to gauge

11:34

me. Like you can see him trying to read

11:36

me if I'm upset. So

11:38

at this point, like the house,

11:40

the grotto is like, there's drugs,

11:42

there's alcohol, there's almost no sleep.

11:45

Food comes, but not at regular intervals.

11:47

And there's like this delirium set in

11:50

and I'm not happy. I'm like definitely at

11:52

the point where I'm like wanting this, what

11:55

was so fun for a few days

11:57

is now not fun. And then I

11:59

get in a... altercation with

12:01

3's best friend, Ratro, after

12:04

Ratro had been on this multi-day long

12:07

cocaine bender. I mean, so

12:09

much so that he was bleeding out

12:11

his nose at points where he was

12:13

wearing the same clothes when I'd see

12:15

him at night and then the next

12:18

day because he wasn't sleeping. And in

12:20

this, I don't know what to call

12:22

it, argument, altercation situation, I guess, he

12:24

tells me that 3

12:26

fancies himself a womanizer and he

12:29

tells me that 3 has been

12:31

warned on many occasions not to

12:33

DM the woman of the project

12:36

anymore, that the women always cause

12:38

problems. And that last year, Shana

12:40

had caused the problems because she

12:43

had run out and that he had

12:45

to run after her and fish her

12:47

back and bring her back to 3.

12:49

And I'm learning all of this in

12:51

real time. I went in

12:53

like this is my first vacation

12:55

without my kids ever. I'm excited

12:58

to meet everybody. And what I

13:00

walk into is just this

13:05

horrible realization that nobody

13:09

is not who I thought he was.

13:11

And I'm just getting it from all angles. It's

13:14

funny, I am not

13:16

okay. I go to remove myself from

13:18

the situation. I start walking away and

13:20

Ratro gets sort of aggressive and he

13:22

starts following me. And he's leaning into

13:25

my space and talking louder. And like

13:27

as a woman like that, that's scary.

13:29

And another male member of the grotto,

13:31

the only other person who was there

13:33

at the time, defuses the situation by

13:36

literally putting his body in between us.

13:38

And it's interesting that shortly thereafter,

13:41

that guy was exited from the

13:43

project silently by Ratro, not even

13:45

3. So, you know, the

13:47

guy that came in and tried to defend

13:50

me ends up getting, you know,

13:52

silently removed. And that didn't happen until a

13:54

little bit later, but I'm go

13:57

back up to my room. I'm uninvited

13:59

for... the next night. So Vince, three

14:01

now knows and he

14:04

doesn't, I say, can I talk to

14:06

you? He refuses to see me. He

14:08

refuses to listen to me. He refuses.

14:10

He says there's no way Rattrow could

14:13

have possibly scared me because he's so

14:15

small. Well, I'm smaller. I'm five two.

14:17

And that's not any indication. Somebody who

14:19

is fucked up on five days worth

14:21

of drugs is not

14:24

exactly a reasonable person. So three

14:26

takes the young girls instead to the

14:28

next party that he was, that I was supposed

14:30

to go to. And he just

14:32

starts getting mean and sadistic

14:35

and like he was touching them, especially

14:37

the blonde and like just looking at

14:39

me, hugging her and looking at me,

14:41

touching her leg and looking at me.

14:43

Like you could tell at this point there

14:46

is nothing that he wants to do more

14:48

than just like go for the kill. And

14:50

I do not know why he starts

14:52

telling him. And this is like, I

14:55

can't tell you the depth of I felt on this.

14:58

He starts telling all my friends in the

15:00

project how ugly and how annoying I am.

15:02

And I think the supposition is like, have

15:05

you seen the type of girls I can

15:07

get? Why in the world

15:09

would I be with her? Like instead of

15:11

the fact that we had been seeing each

15:13

other, it's just like, I'm his

15:15

age. You know what I mean? I've

15:18

had kids, I'm curvy. I'm not thin.

15:20

I'm not, you know, you know, young

15:22

in those ways. And he just

15:24

started telling everybody that I was

15:27

like in quotes, a troll and a

15:29

two and all these like horrible things.

15:31

And then that I was just

15:34

trying to, I was just there because I wanted

15:36

to fuck him, that I was a

15:38

groupie, that I couldn't get a shot and

15:40

that I was just throwing myself at him

15:42

and it was pathetic. And that I had

15:44

ruined the entire week. So I

15:46

go home and I go silent

15:49

on the discord and I'm

15:51

really upset. I'm like trying to

15:53

like figure it out with my

15:55

husband who's also kind of livid, but like, it's not

15:57

a safe space for me really to be discussing this

15:59

stuff. because it's just a whole bunch of

16:02

awkward. And I'm just thinking I'm done,

16:04

but I'm valuable because I have photos

16:06

and videos of the whole week, including

16:09

the drugs and the girls. And

16:11

I realize that now. And

16:13

so what I would say, and I'll try and

16:16

keep it, I know it's a long

16:18

story, but this is where

16:20

I see the trickle down sadism

16:22

of the project because the second

16:24

in control, Fruitton reaches out to

16:26

me and he feigns concern. And

16:29

it's like the Stanford

16:31

prison experiment. Like if you give somebody

16:33

power, even if it's just perceived, they

16:35

can wield it in really cruel

16:38

ways. And so he tells me that

16:40

he's there for me, we

16:42

get on the phone and I tell him

16:44

all about the retro situation, but not even

16:46

about me in three, because I'm still protecting

16:48

this fucking guy. I

16:50

don't even know, I'm scared of him.

16:52

And I, well, anyway, he records the

16:54

call and I feel violated. It's

16:57

so violating to have somebody

16:59

reach out, say they're there for you and

17:01

then just record it. And

17:03

at least I presume he did, because three

17:05

told me that he did, and he yelled

17:07

at me really hard about it when I

17:09

finally did meet him in real life afterwards.

17:11

How soon after you leaving Miami and this

17:13

all happening, did you meet him again in

17:16

real life? It was a little over a

17:18

week later of me

17:20

not being in the grotto at all. And

17:23

the reason, I don't even know, I should

17:25

have just been gone, is that

17:27

I felt like I needed to prove that I

17:29

was the better person and I did have all these

17:31

photos and videos. And at the

17:33

time, maybe they were gonna make a documentary

17:35

or whatever they were gonna do. And I

17:37

was just trying to be professional and show

17:39

that I wasn't this horrible person, that they

17:42

all thought I was. And so I go

17:44

and you have to say, he's a big

17:46

dude. I don't even know,

17:48

somebody can speak to, I'm so short that everybody

17:50

just seems taller than me, but three is just

17:53

big. And I

17:55

felt just so small,

17:58

saddling up to him, but I... was like,

18:00

I'm going to state my case. I'm going to

18:02

be brave. I'm going to, I'm such

18:04

a conflict of first person, but I'm

18:07

like, I'm, I, I've hit my point

18:09

and, and I try. And it becomes

18:11

this gaslight fast. He tells me he's

18:13

been trying to break up with me

18:16

for months, just blatantly was

18:18

not true. He told me,

18:20

uh, that he'd been trying

18:22

to get out of our relationship, but he

18:25

never said it out loud because he didn't

18:27

want me to feel not special, but I

18:29

should have just known, but it was like

18:31

so incongruous to the dates we had been

18:33

on to the phone calls to like, it

18:35

was just like revisionist history. It's like somebody

18:38

telling you that the sky isn't blue. And

18:40

you're like, but I was there. I was

18:42

half of this. So I asked him, I

18:44

said, well, why did you kiss me in

18:46

front of the whole grotto if

18:49

we weren't together? I mean, at the very

18:51

least that would have been inappropriate if I'm

18:54

married and I'm there and we weren't together.

18:56

Or even if you were trying to break up with me, that's

18:58

cruel. He says, well, I didn't kiss

19:00

you. And I said, yeah, you did. And he

19:02

goes, well, I don't remember it. And

19:05

so I show him a video that

19:07

somebody had taken of him kissing me

19:09

and he just blows up and

19:11

he's like, who took this? What

19:13

do you want? Is it money? Are you

19:15

extorting me? And I

19:17

think I understood at this moment that like

19:19

you couldn't win. It was always my fault.

19:22

It's a secret relationship, but I'm going to

19:24

kiss you in front of everybody. Then when

19:26

you try and do it, kiss me later,

19:28

I'm going to just throw you down when

19:30

you're, I'm going to deny doing it. Then

19:32

I'm going to say, don't remember, I'm going

19:34

to do it. And then when you can

19:36

prove that I did it, it's your fault

19:38

because you're trying to extort me. Yep. All

19:40

the tactics. Yeah. It was

19:42

an abuse yo yo. He raised me

19:44

up really high and then he throw

19:46

me down really hard. And then I

19:49

try and slink off and then he

19:51

would come back in and raise me

19:53

up really high again. And he just

19:55

did this over and over and over

19:57

again. It just got to the point

19:59

where at this point he was just.

20:01

throwing me from such high height that

20:03

the impact was physically hurting, even

20:05

though it was just emotional. This was

20:08

the last time? Nope. I saw him

20:10

probably three more times and

20:12

came back into the community. You'd think it'd

20:14

be over, but he begged me back. He

20:17

told me I was dear to him. The

20:19

project needed me. I was important. And

20:21

I would just try to be his friend. And

20:24

I think I'll try and keep it short because

20:26

so much other, so much

20:28

happens. But I just decided I'm not chasing him

20:30

anymore. And it's just, I'm just going to be

20:32

a collector. And then it starts to

20:35

be where he starts texting me that

20:38

my gameplay is bad. And it's like, I'm like, damn,

20:41

I can't even spend money right. I can't give

20:43

him money right. There's nothing. I can't be his

20:45

friend. I can't be his girlfriend. I can't be

20:47

his... There's just nothing. And

20:49

I do see him again. And he's shitty

20:52

to me and he's shitty to other women.

20:54

And I see him being shitty to other

20:56

women. And it's almost easier to see the

20:59

abuse he's doing to them instead of me.

21:01

And the last time I saw him, I'm

21:03

going to skip over some of the middle,

21:05

but the last time I saw him was

21:08

like, I was not doing anything

21:10

romantic or sexual at this point with him.

21:12

Nothing. Just trying to be in the project.

21:14

And it's like, because he didn't feel like

21:17

he was getting as much of my attention

21:19

anymore, because now I was putting it back

21:21

into my own life and stuff. He starts

21:24

again, I need you. I miss you. I

21:26

want you. I can't stop thinking about you

21:28

stuff. I'm not even sure I want it

21:30

at that point. But at the same time,

21:33

there is a piece of me that is

21:36

like, this is what you wanted. And

21:38

so I go back and I do

21:40

see him one last time at his

21:42

studio one-on-one. And I think the thing

21:44

I'll say about it is he promises

21:46

me that he is going to make

21:48

me the general manager of one of

21:50

the teams, which is a huge deal

21:52

on the project, like a big promotion.

21:54

And I think he waits for me

21:56

to be flattered by it. And

21:59

then he... He turns and he says to

22:01

me, you ruined everything.

22:04

And I just waited for him to be done. I

22:06

knew he had to say it out loud before we

22:08

could proceed with the rest of the conversation. Like I

22:10

just had to like, if I could just blunt

22:12

that emotional punch and just let him, like I

22:14

was doing it for him because I knew he

22:16

needed to be terrible to me first before we

22:19

could move on. And at that point,

22:21

I just think I started going through the motions and

22:23

I was done. And even though I

22:25

still had a lot of feelings for him and it was

22:28

really hard because I didn't want to be thrown

22:30

out of the community and I was so financially

22:32

and emotionally invested in

22:34

it. You know, what happens is

22:37

Shana ends up posting

22:39

something on Instagram in

22:42

a story that I can read into. Like

22:44

I know that the legato jargon and

22:46

I'm like, wait a second. It sounds

22:49

like they're having problems, but they're not

22:51

together. And so I called her and

22:53

within like, I wanted to dislike Shana,

22:55

all the things that three had told

22:57

me about her. And within five minutes,

23:00

I just knew everything. She knew

23:02

everything. Like he was doing all

23:04

the same shit to both of

23:06

us. And it was like the

23:09

dams just broke and we started

23:11

to compare calendars and we started

23:13

to compare notes. And

23:16

I hate the fact like Shana and I have

23:18

become really close in this. Like she's one of

23:20

my favorite people in like the whole world. And

23:22

like, and the thing that like, once it makes

23:24

me cry is the whole time I was telling

23:27

him, I wish I had more female friends in

23:29

web three. Like I wish they were

23:31

safe places to like be a woman here. And he

23:33

was like telling me that it

23:35

wasn't shitty. He couldn't have

23:37

us talk. And it's like, in a way,

23:39

I feel like he blocked me even from

23:42

a real friendship. Like I, nothing good

23:44

came of it, but you know, we

23:46

unfortunately figured out very quickly and we had

23:48

suspected that maybe Kat was in that too.

23:51

And I'll let them talk about these calls

23:53

because I've been talking for a long time.

23:56

But it was really hard for me with Kat because

23:58

she's the same age as my daughter. They're

24:01

three months apart, and the

24:03

idea of a croon of

24:05

threesomes touching someone, my daughter's,

24:07

the inequity, it's so unfair.

24:10

The 22-year-olds were bad, but they

24:13

likely were flown down and had some idea of

24:15

what they were there. There was clearly some sort

24:17

of, whether it was drugs or money or

24:20

being taken care of, excitement for them.

24:23

Cat was just innocently caught in the

24:25

crossfire. I just stopped talking

24:27

to three. He was texting me, and he was

24:30

DMing me, and he was reaching out to me,

24:32

and I just wouldn't respond. I

24:34

listed one of my cards for sale. I'd

24:36

never done that before. After

24:38

three months of hearing almost nothing from him,

24:40

because he had vanished, I heard from him

24:42

within seven minutes after I listed the first

24:45

card for sale, and he knew something was

24:47

up. That was it. I've

24:49

not spoken to him since.

24:51

I've wanted to yell in his face

24:54

and say, I know you think you're smarter than

24:56

all of us. I know. It's

24:59

just like, I know you delight in duping people

25:01

and fooling people, but we know it all,

25:04

dude. We know so

25:06

much, but I didn't. I just let it

25:08

go, because I think in a way it's

25:10

better left unsaid. I'm not

25:12

going to put myself back there. There's

25:15

a point where

25:17

you begin to doubt

25:19

whether this person is for real. To

25:22

actually fully grasp the

25:24

moral bankruptcy factor of

25:27

somebody like this, most

25:29

people would think that you're absolutely paranoid

25:32

to truly be embracing ideas like that

25:34

about somebody that you know really well.

25:37

That's part of what's so hard about

25:39

placing all of these facts together and

25:41

comparing all of this. One of the

25:43

stuff is beyond what it seems

25:46

to be human, almost. Comparing

25:49

the schedules like she and I did about

25:52

when he was talking to certain people on

25:54

certain days, when he said that

25:56

we were broken up or having a fight or

25:58

not or whatever. There's

26:00

a certain point where like

26:02

the duping factor from one

26:04

individual is just absolutely uncanny.

26:06

Like how can somebody pursue

26:09

me every day, call me every

26:11

day, middle of the day, morning,

26:13

noon, and night all the time,

26:15

keep track of me all the

26:17

time, talk to me all the

26:19

time. It's just about it's almost

26:21

never me reaching out. It's always

26:23

them reaching out to me and

26:25

yet they live this completely duplicitous

26:27

lifestyle all the fucking time, have

26:29

multiple other girlfriends that they've managed

26:31

to suppress the truth

26:33

about. It's just

26:35

it's like beyond what you

26:37

could even conceive for a

26:39

person. There's a point where I was like a

26:42

mod in the grotto, I was helping with the

26:44

core of the project. And then when I look

26:46

back at just the

26:48

incredible amount of complete moral bankruptcy

26:50

that was at play, it sucks.

26:53

It makes me feel like I was

26:56

a fucking accomplice. Like even giving somebody

26:58

good advice daily about how

27:00

to manage their art career and things

27:03

like that. It's unbelievable where you just

27:05

you're like, I was

27:07

the first wife of a fucking cult

27:09

and I had no fucking idea. Even

27:11

though we were joking about it in

27:13

plain sight, like Brooke was saying, you

27:16

know, like it was such

27:18

a joke until like it wasn't, you

27:21

know, like we like, like a lot

27:23

of other ladies, like I'm interested in

27:25

true crime, like as a hobby and

27:27

stuff. And I've looked at cults like

27:30

I've watched documentaries on all the major

27:32

cults. We joked so much about this

27:34

group being a cult that

27:37

it became like an extravagant and

27:39

an extravagant LARP.

27:41

And like, I

27:44

started showing him cult documentaries, we would

27:46

watch them on the phone every night.

27:49

And like, there was this point in

27:51

time where I went out of

27:53

my way to find a really good one

27:55

on Jonestown, because there was a joke where

27:57

stylistically, it was just funny, they kind of

27:59

look alike and there's a few things like

28:01

that. And at the very end

28:03

of it, when it's showing the helicopter shots of

28:06

all the bodies, he goes, well,

28:08

yeah, but I don't

28:10

actually want to murder people. I was

28:12

like, he's for real then.

28:14

Who would even compare to that

28:16

level with make that genuine of

28:19

a comment at the end? It

28:21

made my skin crawl. It's like,

28:23

how long were you the first

28:25

lady? I mean, the whole

28:27

time, I guess he's a construct of

28:29

a human being is what it ends

28:31

up. So he tells everybody something different

28:33

about a year or so, two years,

28:35

two years. Okay. But then again, he

28:37

was telling certain people that we were

28:39

together when it made him look like

28:41

official, when it made him look better,

28:43

when it gave him business opportunities, when

28:45

it made him seem like a genuine

28:47

human. And then to other people, I

28:50

was like some girl that was

28:52

chasing him, which is there's

28:54

like a complete phone log of

28:57

him heavily chasing me the entire time.

28:59

I think we kind of joke that,

29:01

and it's not really a joke, but

29:04

Shana's really wife one. I'm

29:07

maybe wife two, or sometimes refer to

29:09

me as the grotto queen, because I

29:11

think like I was there to like,

29:14

make the guys spend more money

29:16

and to like, entertain a little

29:18

bit. And Kat was a secret.

29:20

I mean, just totally hidden on

29:23

the side. But yeah, it just felt

29:25

like there was a hierarchy. And we

29:28

all had a different purpose with him.

29:30

I think Shana was really the closest

29:32

thing to a real relationship that he's

29:34

maybe capable. I think I was there

29:37

to mother him when he felt down

29:39

or needed assurance. By the way, I

29:41

think he had things that he needed

29:43

from FOMO too. And some of the

29:45

guys, like it's not just the women,

29:48

he compartmentalized all the different needs he

29:50

had. And he also put different secrets

29:52

into all of us. Because if you

29:54

ever had the whole picture, I think

29:57

it'd be shocking. This

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You've heard from our sponsors. Now let's get back

31:35

to a little bit culty, shall we? Kat,

31:38

how did you get out? What was your

31:41

waking up process like? All

31:44

right. It started getting

31:46

really dark, basically, in general. I

31:49

told that his rage was getting out

31:51

of hand, his behavior got really unattractive

31:54

towards me. Basically, I

31:56

almost lost my place in

31:58

the dormitory even because of him.

32:00

because previously he insisted I don't

32:02

sign a contract for my

32:04

room because he would talk all the

32:07

time about a flat, he wants to

32:09

have a Vienna, that we can have

32:11

a together, whatever. And I was like,

32:13

even if I can pay half of

32:15

it, it's better. And then I almost

32:18

literally lost the place. It was last

32:20

minute safe, but for a moment, I

32:22

didn't have anywhere to live, potentially. So

32:25

that was really harsh on me.

32:27

And meanwhile, in August, we

32:29

weren't technically and hypothetically

32:31

together anymore because he, well,

32:34

he put it on a break because

32:36

he needed to go explore that kind

32:38

of lifestyle with a girl he has

32:41

now and hence then. Just to remind

32:43

our audience, you'd been together virtually, like

32:45

never met in person. Never. It had

32:47

been about a year? A

32:49

year. Okay. And then he shares with you

32:51

that he wants to explore a relationship with

32:54

somebody else, so he was pausing it with

32:56

you? Yeah, yes. He said he slept with

32:58

a girl who kind of again pursued him.

33:01

They went on an upstate weekend and he spent

33:03

the weekend with her and he told me all

33:05

this story and wished me just to fall apart

33:07

for him. Basically, all the meanwhile

33:09

saying, I love you, I don't know what to

33:11

do. I love her as

33:13

well, like, and let me just go do

33:15

this thing. I was so

33:18

understanding because we never even

33:20

met. I never understood in the first

33:22

place what he even wanted to be

33:24

with me. This is such a huge

33:26

age gap, cultural gap, distance. I was

33:28

like, okay, so much adoration and everything

33:30

and consistency. And I'm like, okay, if

33:33

it makes sense. But then I

33:35

was so like, go do your thing.

33:38

And then in September, we had a

33:40

long call when he said, okay, I

33:42

think I will continue doing this. And

33:45

that was officially like kind of

33:48

over. And he was saying that

33:50

his affair can end any day and any

33:52

night. You know, that, you know, it's something

33:54

you just can't end. Maybe when he gets

33:57

a passport, but that wasn't said out loud,

33:59

but it's It felt like he made

34:02

sure I promised to maintain a friendly

34:04

relationship with him so he can keep

34:06

me on the roster. I

34:10

did not understand that. I was like, okay,

34:12

so now that's over and I can kind

34:14

of move away from that. But I was

34:16

still very much tied to him. I was

34:18

also helping him with some technical work for

34:20

the project. Next

34:23

day, Charm reached out to me

34:25

in response to one of my

34:27

heartbroken stories, basically, on

34:30

Instagram and we started talking. I

34:32

thought it was just a friendly

34:34

conversation. We got to

34:36

name-dropping really quickly and

34:38

that's where I basically found out

34:40

everything. It

34:42

was literally just within an hour of

34:45

a conversation, it was all clear to

34:47

me. Next day,

34:49

I talked to Shayna too and we all

34:51

talked together now. What

34:54

happened then was an interesting

34:57

part of experience for me.

34:59

I blocked him everywhere we

35:01

ever did and did not talk. I

35:04

did not go into anything. I

35:07

felt that my body was shocked because I

35:09

remember after doing that, I was

35:11

shaking and I was calling my brother and I

35:13

was crying for a

35:15

minute because my body response

35:17

was just beyond anything because

35:20

my brother knew all about him and

35:22

I was telling my brother, my older

35:24

brother about all these things. But

35:27

consciously, it all made perfect sense to

35:29

me because I started looking back and

35:31

tearing down the whole coercion and fiction

35:34

he built for me and

35:36

all those words that he said after

35:39

any sexual or explicit content, he would

35:41

say, you belong to me, I'm the

35:43

one to guide you, I

35:46

know your needs and desires before you

35:48

know them yourself. Those

35:52

words suddenly appeared very ugly and

35:54

very atrocious, like said by an

35:56

older man to a teenage girl

35:58

on the internet. age of his

36:00

daughter. So I

36:02

just started seeing all those things. And

36:04

the fact is, when I was going in

36:06

into this relationship, I was aware that I

36:09

am taking the risk. I was convinced that

36:11

this is what makes sense for everyone, but

36:13

I was aware this is kind of shady.

36:16

And meanwhile, whereas

36:19

it was very deeply buried under

36:22

everything, under the manipulation,

36:24

the dependence, the admiration,

36:27

everything, but I

36:29

knew that I am capable of

36:31

taking the upper hand in

36:33

case that this ever turns out to

36:35

be not what it seemed. And I

36:38

was like, okay, then, so now this

36:40

is going to be a different conversation.

36:42

But this was basically very

36:45

interesting for me, the level of

36:47

self-destruction on his side. Because when

36:49

I saw all these situations that

36:51

we're in, I kind of

36:53

understood that there is no way out

36:55

for him out of this. I could

36:58

not understand where all the

37:00

intelligence went, that we were living in this

37:02

shade of greatness of this almost

37:05

omnipotent person. But what I saw, I

37:08

never hide who I am. And I would expect

37:10

if you are taking advantage of me, you got

37:12

to be at least paying attention. Because

37:15

to blame me is not a smart decision.

37:17

It's not a decision of a smart person.

37:19

A smart person doesn't do this. And that's

37:21

where it kind of started falling apart for

37:23

me, this whole illusion of, oh

37:26

my God, it's so scary, so

37:28

scary. It wasn't scary anymore. It was

37:30

scary on inertia. But

37:32

otherwise, I just saw that it's

37:35

a really bad situation for him. And

37:37

I'm completely, I have enough power, I

37:39

have been granted by him enough power

37:41

to eliminate him in a minute. And

37:44

I will do that. But yes, it was weird

37:46

to me in many ways. Yeah, I also, we

37:48

talked, I talked to Charm and I talked to

37:50

Shane and we talked to many other women

37:53

and collectors. And we found out that there

37:55

are more of us. More than three, more

37:57

than five, more than six, before and after.

38:00

and everyone bit him. And

38:02

those conversations brought up

38:04

very disturbing things that we

38:06

even haven't thought about. For

38:09

example, the way he talks

38:11

about women to other

38:13

collectors and to sometimes different women,

38:16

he just portrays them as sexual

38:19

trophies of different nationalities. So

38:21

he basically allegedly has a

38:23

list of women he slept

38:25

with, where there are also

38:27

nationalities of those women. And

38:30

he talks about it as

38:32

a sport where for

38:34

him to pursue a woman that

38:36

he already has on the list

38:39

is not interesting. But

38:41

when he hears something new, that

38:43

catches his attention in terms

38:45

of nationalities. And it is sometimes

38:47

when I read and heard those

38:49

stories, it is just appalling the

38:52

way he uses cultural context of

38:54

those nationalities in just absolutely inappropriate

38:56

ways. Maybe he thinks it makes

38:58

him feel like look more

39:00

interesting or anything, but it just grows. It

39:04

just literally grows. And this plays out in

39:06

a sense that there are many of us

39:08

who he pursued on the internet when we

39:10

come from all over the world, from all

39:12

different countries, many of us from underdeveloped

39:15

countries, of course, but either

39:17

way, not all of us are even young. It's

39:20

all a big game

39:24

for him. And also

39:26

the other thing that we found

39:28

out is basically how the cult

39:30

structure that we analyzed,

39:32

it was like we had

39:34

evidence that it was

39:37

very intentional because with one of

39:39

the first collectors, big collectors and

39:41

women he affiliated himself with and

39:44

pursued like that, also on the internet,

39:46

also from Russia. Well, yes, it was

39:49

a conversation of them talking about of

39:51

her not understanding if he's joking and

39:53

asking what do you want to make

39:55

it bigger than the project you want

39:57

to extend it and he says. Yeah,

40:00

life destinations, cult compounds.

40:03

And he says, an ideology. And

40:05

he answers, well, I already have

40:07

an ideology. I tell them to

40:09

hate this artist, they hate this

40:11

artist. So basically, he also thinks

40:13

he considered using psychedelics at some

40:15

point to control people. With

40:18

me, he would talk about mythology, and he built

40:20

a mythology in the project. Like we were talking

40:22

in the beginning, which I saw as

40:24

just an interesting approach to building a community

40:26

and an art project. But no, it is

40:29

very much building ideology and

40:32

converging some happenings and

40:34

lore. He was very obsessed

40:36

with lore, building all

40:39

the events and preserving

40:41

them, making them into

40:43

a separate NFT thing,

40:45

like mints. So everything

40:47

that will hold together a whole ecology

40:50

and history, it is a very cult base.

40:52

So it was all very much intentional. So

40:54

we found out a bunch of those things.

40:56

I was grossed out, I was angry, I

40:59

was not hurting anymore. I was like,

41:01

I've been crying myself to sleep enough

41:03

for life. Like, that was not anymore the

41:05

case. And yeah, I was immediately like, so

41:08

what do we do now? We talked to

41:10

people in the project, two collectors came

41:12

forward with our stories in

41:14

private. And then we came forward

41:17

with our stories in public on

41:19

Twitter, which mine was the first

41:21

one. And I've

41:23

gathered like 116,000 views that

41:26

post where I told literally

41:28

I was groomed by

41:30

45 year old man when I

41:32

was 18. And it's like,

41:35

it was hard for me, but I was

41:37

very intensely reacting that I need

41:39

to avenge my boundaries.

41:42

And this is the part of the healing

41:44

that started happening because this acting

41:46

on anger and being able to

41:48

avenge the boundaries that were being

41:50

pushed and neglected and disregarded for

41:52

a year. It was important.

41:55

It was really important. It like,

41:58

it gave me all the biggest. amount

42:00

of healing that I was able to finally

42:02

stand up for myself because my

42:04

body was completely shocked from this, honestly.

42:07

So, yeah, anything

42:10

else about the finalization of

42:13

this whole story? Maybe other people will

42:15

add more, but a lot of things

42:17

happened, but it tore his project, like

42:19

substantially tore it down. People started seeing

42:22

him for what he was, mostly also

42:24

not because of our stories, also because

42:26

of his reaction to our stories, because

42:28

of the ways he tries to explain

42:30

it away on a live stream that

42:33

he did for his collectors. Dear Lord,

42:35

I can lie better. Five-year-old

42:40

can lie better. This was absolutely

42:42

pathetic. To me, it was impossible

42:44

to listen to because the

42:46

thing with him and with people like

42:48

him is also sometimes that they did

42:51

not really have a feeling of appropriate.

42:53

Sometimes they start talking to you and

42:55

you don't understand why you're hearing this.

42:58

Basically, that whole live stream felt like

43:00

that thing. It was awkward,

43:02

embarrassing, and it didn't hold

43:04

together. People started falling out of

43:07

the project because of

43:09

what he said about charm, because of what

43:11

he said literally about all of this. If

43:13

they were on the fence, they were like,

43:15

okay, we're done. He did a

43:17

big part of the job himself. Now

43:20

he is continuing to just

43:23

perform. The performance is still

43:25

on, though very few people

43:27

are watching. Still, a

43:29

number of most invested people with,

43:32

I would say, the weakest moral

43:34

compass are staying in. Basically,

43:37

the problem is they're still pouring

43:39

money into that project because they

43:42

cannot get disillusioned in the person they

43:44

trusted so much and trusted to care

43:47

about them. He is now hoping

43:49

that this will fly over and everything will be fine again.

43:51

People forget. It

43:57

is a very important thing.

43:59

That girl, he started dating.

44:01

back in summer is a

44:03

28-year-old art writer, Brooklyn-based art

44:05

writer, Vitoria Benzin, her

44:08

name, her alias. And the

44:10

thing is, it is important for me

44:13

to mention, because this is not really

44:15

a personal choice anymore

44:17

for her to be together with

44:19

him as he was warned by

44:22

us and informed by us multiple

44:24

times about what he did, his

44:26

behavior and his wrongdoings and allegations

44:28

which she proceeded to ignore and

44:31

publicly defend him or just affiliate herself

44:33

with him. And now it becomes like

44:36

a dangerous thing because she is now

44:38

pitching his

44:40

project to other people she knows

44:42

in the art world. And that's

44:44

kind of, that's a problematic point

44:47

because that's a point I

44:49

was also, I really wanted to talk

44:51

about the responsibility that we bear towards

44:53

other people, even as members of a

44:55

cult and even as people who are

44:57

manipulated. The blame is on the cult

44:59

leader. He's the one who should go

45:01

down for all of this, but this

45:03

sense of responsibility towards other people, it

45:05

can really, it can be a saving

45:07

tool for us to get out of

45:09

the cult also, because that's what happened

45:12

when I heard the stories of Charm

45:14

and Shayna. I snapped out of it

45:16

immediately. If not for the sake

45:18

of our own safety and protection, but then

45:20

for the sake of like, if

45:22

this is true, what is my role in

45:24

it? What is my place? I might be

45:27

covering someone else's abuse and yeah,

45:30

any cult influences basically

45:33

in each or that way, a test

45:35

to our system of values and the

45:37

test to our moral compasses. And the

45:39

final decision where we say that's enough,

45:42

it always remains on us. So

45:44

that's important. Good for

45:46

you. Did you try to warn

45:48

this new woman yourselves? Yes. Like

45:51

another one of his ex

45:54

girlfriends did. I also did. I reached

45:56

out to her personally. We sent her

45:58

the emails. No,

46:00

with the email the links to the

46:03

allegations to the posts and That's

46:06

basically yes, we did but we got

46:08

ignored and we got blocked Based

46:11

on what I think was a

46:13

nameless that he gave her like

46:15

block those people because they are

46:17

haters Yes, we're the

46:19

mutineers. Yeah, he labeled us the years.

46:21

Yeah, those are your church bells That's

46:25

okay. It's perfect timing. Yeah, I feel

46:27

like Yeah, yeah

46:30

celebration in Vienna I

46:32

was wondering the people who stayed with it you said the

46:34

weaker of more moral compass Do you think there

46:36

is that and in addition? Is there a certain

46:38

sort of sunk cost fallacy where people don't want

46:40

to leave because it look if people leave do

46:42

they lose actually their money? Yeah, how

46:45

does the game work? So the game

46:47

works in that it's a financial Prison

46:50

you buy into the project you

46:52

buy NFT is you buy like

46:54

certain tokens? we'll call them and

46:57

then you know the as the game goes

46:59

on sometimes you have to Destroy

47:02

those tokens or give those tokens away

47:04

like they're sort of game playing pieces

47:06

but you start putting more and more and

47:09

more money in and then you do that

47:11

because you're expecting to get a more valuable

47:13

piece of Art a smaller edition something more

47:15

rare or something more special later in

47:18

he dangles this carrot where you don't get

47:20

that immediately Sometimes it could

47:22

be a year later. You're waiting for this

47:24

piece of art So at

47:26

any point to leave the project you're walking

47:28

away not only from the money you've spent

47:30

so far There's also all

47:33

the cost and the value of these assets

47:35

that have yet to be delivered and it

47:37

is genius as a trap

47:39

Because to get to that piece of

47:41

art there's gonna be ten more loyalty

47:44

tests several more spends You

47:46

know and all these other things in

47:48

between and then only people he is

47:50

he called in good faith like in

47:52

good standing Sorry, only grotto members in

47:55

good standing could get the art. So

47:57

to stay in good standing

47:59

You're just perpetually spending and

48:01

spending and spending both time,

48:03

money, energy, all of it.

48:06

So yeah, I mean, there's really

48:08

no exit ramp. And I would

48:10

say for the men, I think it's

48:12

really hard for them to admit that

48:15

they financially made a bad decision. Like

48:17

there's that joke that there's no, like

48:19

no men ever lose money, like in

48:21

the stock market, so to speak. Nobody

48:23

talks about their losses, only their wins.

48:26

And to admit it, a lot of

48:28

these people have put in tens and

48:30

tens and tens, if not even hundreds

48:32

of thousands of dollars into this project

48:34

that they then might have to like

48:36

realize those losses. They're not paper losses

48:38

anymore. Now they're real losses. If the

48:40

project is not valuable, like he told

48:43

us the valuation of this project was

48:45

so high. And if that turns out

48:48

to be not true, if there's really

48:50

no demand to resell these things, like

48:52

he was promising, like he was making

48:55

fake wash trades and all

48:57

this stuff to bolster and make it look

48:59

like there was a market

49:01

and demand for these, if that's gone,

49:03

then the money you sunk in was

49:06

not an investment. It was just

49:08

thrown away. I think a lot

49:10

of people were in precarious situations

49:12

with their significant others and their

49:15

families to admit how much money they'd put

49:17

into this and how there was

49:19

now nothing coming out. So the people who

49:21

stayed, yes, I think some were morally bankrupt.

49:23

I agree with Cat. And I think some

49:26

are the team owners who spent so

49:28

much money to buy in like $50,000

49:30

even to buy a team. And

49:34

then you leave with nothing. And I just think

49:36

they're trying to like, I think that a lot

49:38

of them have this idea, if they just stay

49:40

long enough, they can get to the next round

49:42

of people and sell out. And in that just

49:44

get swept right back up into it. And

49:48

now a brief message from our little bit

49:50

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move forward at sanovus.com. Break

51:29

time's over, people. Let's get back to this episode

51:31

of A Little Bit Cult-y. It's a good one.

51:35

It's a brilliant example of the sunk

51:37

cost fallacy that all the cults have.

51:40

And, you know, as bankrupt as this

51:42

guy is, he's certainly been taking notes

51:44

of those cult documentaries because it's a

51:47

classic dependency, you

51:49

know, sunk cost fallacy structure to keep

51:51

people in. I want to

51:53

move on to how FOMO woke up. Yeah, what

51:55

was the backlash from your community and once you

51:58

guys started outing them? Yeah,

52:00

I think in autumn of last year,

52:02

I felt in my heart that the

52:05

project was failing. He had

52:07

become so toxic to the

52:09

NFT community and the crypto community

52:11

that he was sort of a

52:13

pariah. And despite all his efforts

52:16

to, you know, be

52:18

political and make friends out there

52:21

with influential people, nobody wanted

52:23

to associate with him, just based

52:25

on his, toxic behavior

52:27

and abusive behavior that everybody

52:29

knew about. And I was sort of

52:31

trapped financially too. I will tell you, there's still, there's

52:34

still people who are participating who

52:37

I know for a fact don't want to leave because

52:39

they have too much invested in the project.

52:42

And that was me, I think last

52:44

October, until Charm

52:47

reached out to me with her, her

52:50

stories and I corroborated them

52:53

with Shana, I corroborated them with

52:55

Katarina as well. The possibility

52:57

that he was a sociopath entered my

53:00

mind, which I

53:02

guess we can define as somebody who takes pleasure

53:04

in punishing or destroying other people for being dumb

53:07

enough to engage with them in the first place.

53:09

You know, the fact that the victims can't

53:11

discern their insincerity

53:14

and misrepresentations is proof

53:16

that they deserve to be made into a victim. And

53:19

I kind of saw he was treating the women

53:21

the same way he was treating the men, even though

53:24

the men weren't involved in romantic

53:26

relationships with him. That

53:28

was my wake up call. The money

53:31

just didn't mean anything anymore

53:35

in relation to the

53:37

abuse. It was supposed to be a

53:39

utopian art project. He always built it

53:41

that way. This was a utopia to

53:43

protect us from the people

53:45

outside who actually wanted to take our

53:48

money and hurt us. But at the

53:50

same time, this is a quote, we participated

53:52

at his pleasure. He repeated

53:54

that so many times to drive that

53:56

home with us. We were there at

53:58

his pleasure. You know, I think

54:01

one of the red flags that really disturbed

54:04

me the most was I saw him

54:06

torture someone psychologically. It was at it

54:09

was at his open studio in Brooklyn

54:11

that he hosted. And the collectors came

54:14

by and I watched him put somebody

54:16

on the spot. And he asked that

54:18

that person prayed a

54:20

very expensive piece of

54:22

art that was

54:24

prestigious for one of his

54:26

own tokens. And if that person didn't

54:29

agree to that, there might be

54:31

some serious consequences. And the person was

54:33

in a lot of distress and it

54:35

was funny at first, but then

54:38

it was clear that

54:40

he was enjoying it. You could

54:42

you could you could really feel the

54:44

mean spirit and the pleasure in

54:46

making this person humiliated in

54:48

front of other people. You

54:50

know, that was long before Charms called

54:54

to me, but it just sat in

54:56

the back of my mind for a long time.

54:58

You know why? Because I realized that person was

55:00

being tortured could easily be

55:02

me one day and for

55:07

one reason or another. So

55:09

that was a very, very bad

55:11

thing that sat with me for

55:13

a long time. And were you already

55:15

out by the time that Charms called you? Were

55:17

you on the fence or what was your involvement

55:19

at that time? I was not out. I

55:22

was very close. I had actually

55:24

not paid my invoices for some of the

55:27

some of the pieces, which I

55:29

knew would have dire consequences, even

55:31

for one of the top collectors like me.

55:34

And incidentally, I mean,

55:36

I had paid thousands and thousands of dollars

55:38

for pieces of art that will never be

55:41

delivered to me because I decided to not

55:43

participate anymore as of November.

55:46

So this is actually a story about

55:48

that as well. I'm not sure if

55:50

we really covered that. A

55:52

lot of people are owed a lot of things

55:54

that they paid money for. Yeah, I was going to

55:57

ask, what kind of recourse do you guys have? It's

55:59

a criminal story. The question is, is

56:01

the person criminally insane? I mean, that's something

56:04

else that you need to ask. I

56:06

mean, I don't have the answer, but

56:08

it's a question that's on the table. So a quick question about

56:11

that. Has anyone gone to the authorities about

56:13

the criminal aspect of, like, I mean, isn't

56:15

that fraud? He told

56:17

me a story from over 10

56:19

years ago about getting canceled in

56:21

the corporate world by a group

56:23

of women. He always acted

56:26

like he was a victim

56:28

and they ganged up on him. Of course. And

56:31

I didn't believe that. But what I did

56:33

take into consideration is that it was over

56:35

10 years ago and he may have changed

56:38

by now. They don't change. And

56:41

apparently they don't change. But

56:44

there is a pattern when you look at

56:46

his life, there is a

56:48

pattern of this, of getting certain

56:50

things out of a situation and then having

56:52

to cut and run with what you've gotten.

56:55

Although he'll spin it in different ways. So I

56:58

think that I was the only one that had heard

57:01

all those rounds of stories in private,

57:03

hanging out with him one on one,

57:05

where he would like to go into

57:08

the strange eccentricities of his past with

57:11

me. And I protected him for

57:13

a long time. Regrettably

57:16

now, but I felt like

57:18

I was protecting somebody that was like on

57:21

the mend and had like repaired a

57:23

lot of these bad behaviors and hopefully grown out of

57:25

it. I mean, he's, he's told

57:28

me many things. It's like, you

57:30

have to piece together what's true

57:32

and what makes sense. Like many,

57:35

many times all the time, he

57:38

was talking about being worried about having

57:41

not paid his taxes in many, many

57:43

years. He told

57:45

me about like domestic violence

57:47

incidents with his son that he had when

57:51

he was living in Brooklyn. He

57:53

got violent with me in private a

57:55

couple of times. There's just a lot

57:58

to this that it makes it. It

58:01

makes it so hard to talk about, you know, because

58:03

it's just it going back to

58:05

the shame factor. It's like the

58:07

temperature getting turned up slowly in

58:10

this coercive control scenario, where he

58:12

ended up having just about

58:14

full control over my career at a

58:16

point, which started small and then got

58:18

a little bigger and a little bigger

58:20

and a little bigger until he's like

58:22

controlling your career moves and your finances.

58:25

And then you want to make the group look good

58:27

as a whole, and you want to do

58:29

the right thing. And so as

58:32

a mod in the Discord, as somebody that

58:34

like actually helped build the project itself all

58:36

the time for him over two years, like

58:38

I ended up just turning the volume down

58:40

on myself and just kind of being there

58:43

and being like not even really seen or

58:45

heard though, just to be more

58:47

and more helpful. It's just amazing how somebody can

58:49

condition you to just kind of fall

58:52

right into a place that's

58:54

not even you. I feel

58:56

like we all identify with that. Absolutely. Us

58:58

too. It wasn't even

59:00

us. Stephen Hasen talks about the

59:02

pre-cult identity and then the cult

59:05

identity. It's like this mask, right?

59:08

It's not you. It's this persona you

59:10

become in the group for all

59:12

the different reasons that, you know, we

59:14

joined in the first place, the

59:17

community, the financial benefit, the being

59:19

a part of something, the art, the values that

59:21

are important to you. And those are always going

59:23

to be the thing that keeps it together and

59:25

why you don't notice the temperature going up because

59:27

of the good things. There's enough good

59:30

to justify the bad. And

59:32

also because you're a good person, Sheena, you project

59:34

that goodness onto him. That's why all of you

59:36

assumed so many of the things he was saying

59:38

was a joke because you couldn't even imagine that

59:40

they would be real. Right? So,

59:43

and then the good, why it's so shameful, I

59:45

think, again, projecting is that when you see what

59:47

you see now, it's so obvious, but you, there's

59:49

no way you could have seen it because of

59:51

the, if you remember you, your goodness protects you

59:53

in some ways until, until you can see the

59:55

whole picture. And part of being able to see

59:57

the whole picture is. because you started to talk.

1:00:00

Well, and no, actually, Charm reached out to you.

1:00:02

Sheena, how did you see the whole picture? Because

1:00:04

it sounds like you woke up first. Yeah.

1:00:07

Is that right? I didn't expect, when

1:00:10

I started putting everything together, I

1:00:12

didn't expect anybody to believe me. I

1:00:15

hate admitting this, but this is not the only

1:00:17

abusive, coercive relationship that I've been in. Although

1:00:19

I didn't realize that this was doing it

1:00:22

all over again. So when I

1:00:24

put it together, I was like, here

1:00:26

it is all over again. And last

1:00:28

time, nobody believed me. So

1:00:30

I had to sit in the dark with it for

1:00:32

years and just kind of repair my

1:00:35

collapsed life from that scenario in

1:00:38

private. The redeeming aspect of

1:00:40

the way it went this time was

1:00:43

I got so much

1:00:45

support. People fucking believed me. Charm

1:00:49

believed me. Like

1:00:51

we got on the phone, it's

1:00:53

the first time ever after

1:00:55

like knowing her in this community for so

1:00:57

long, but we were just pitted against each

1:00:59

other in these subtle ways where we weren't

1:01:01

allowed to talk. And then we were

1:01:04

on the phone for like less than five minutes and

1:01:06

I could feel that we

1:01:08

fucking got it. You know, like it

1:01:10

was insane. It's so stupid to hear

1:01:13

myself see this, but like I knew

1:01:15

very early on that it was a

1:01:17

bad situation because the violence

1:01:19

incidents in private with him began

1:01:22

merely a month into me knowing

1:01:24

him. Violent in what

1:01:26

way? Like physically? Yeah, like it

1:01:29

started ramping up slowly over time where

1:01:32

it would be rage outbursts at

1:01:34

first. Very surreal,

1:01:36

didn't make any sense. Like sometimes what

1:01:38

it was even over, you know,

1:01:42

then it escalated to

1:01:44

he would get mad and throw a thing at

1:01:46

the wall and break it. And

1:01:49

then it would escalate to him throwing

1:01:51

a big thing near my head at

1:01:53

the wall. And then it escalated to

1:01:55

him getting in my face like where,

1:01:57

and I asked him, are you? going

1:01:59

to hit me?" And he was like,

1:02:01

maybe. We probably had

1:02:03

about six major fights where we quote

1:02:05

unquote had broken up for one night

1:02:07

or something. And then he would always

1:02:09

beg for me back. In

1:02:12

the spring of 23, I

1:02:17

remember that he asked

1:02:19

me to move in with him, to move

1:02:21

to Brooklyn. And I

1:02:23

heard myself saying to him, no, I

1:02:26

can't live with you in Brooklyn because what

1:02:28

if you get rageful with me, I'll have

1:02:30

nowhere to go. Which is

1:02:32

just such a weird thing to

1:02:34

actively negotiate with somebody. And then

1:02:37

we weren't breaking up in that

1:02:39

moment. And he acknowledged it.

1:02:43

It's hanging, but there's so many power

1:02:45

plays and stuff hanging with a

1:02:47

thread, like career and money, and

1:02:50

controlling our image and trying not

1:02:52

to reveal this to the world

1:02:54

because that's fucking embarrassing and weird.

1:02:56

And I'm not trying to crumble

1:02:58

his empire, et cetera, et cetera.

1:03:01

But that's when I

1:03:03

think that he started very much actively

1:03:05

looking for some other Trojan

1:03:07

horse scenario to jump into. Because it ends

1:03:09

up that the trend that we keep seeing

1:03:12

is this femme washing

1:03:14

trends where it

1:03:16

makes him look pretty good to surround

1:03:18

himself with certain women, you

1:03:21

know, like professionally or whatever. So I

1:03:24

know that that is a really tough spot

1:03:26

for you. I know he, I didn't know

1:03:28

till after he threatened to kick you out

1:03:30

of the house and you didn't have another

1:03:32

place to stay. I know that's happened a

1:03:34

few times. Oh yeah. He's done that many

1:03:36

times. He's, he's turned my

1:03:38

own friends against me that

1:03:41

I knew first. He's physically

1:03:43

threatened me. He

1:03:45

controlled my career. He would

1:03:47

do weird indirect threats to like,

1:03:49

he had a bad

1:03:52

relationship with his third wife and he

1:03:55

would tell me things like he should

1:03:57

have had her killed because

1:03:59

her species. Jesus. out about him continues

1:04:01

to be a problem in his

1:04:03

life. So these are things that

1:04:05

come to mind when you think about speaking

1:04:07

out. You

1:04:10

don't know if this person's full of shit

1:04:12

or not, but possibly they at least decided

1:04:14

to actually say that they would consider doing

1:04:16

such an insane thing. Right. That's

1:04:18

a real threat. I would take that as a real threat. What

1:04:21

do you hope our listeners take away? Are

1:04:23

you all getting justice anytime soon? Are you

1:04:25

hopeful? I think part of it is

1:04:28

a catharsis of just putting it out

1:04:30

there into the world. Like I said,

1:04:32

we've been so scared of him that

1:04:34

just saying these things out loud feels

1:04:37

just right, like just to show that we're

1:04:39

not scared anymore. And there is

1:04:41

a narrative that he's telling his community

1:04:44

that this is just a bad breakup

1:04:46

story with Shana, or this is just

1:04:48

a bunch of women who are jealous

1:04:50

and want him and all this stuff.

1:04:52

And it's not that it's really a

1:04:55

story of everyone says it's abuse. It's

1:04:57

financial imprisonment. I mean, it's a million

1:04:59

things that are nefarious and bad. And

1:05:01

I think we want to set

1:05:04

the record straight. Also, this is

1:05:06

something FOMO and I had talked about is

1:05:08

that like NFTs are here to say, we

1:05:10

actually love crypto. We love the

1:05:12

promise of new art and new

1:05:14

currencies and on this new web

1:05:16

three culture and in that there

1:05:18

unfortunately are going to be times

1:05:20

and places where these scams

1:05:23

and these cults can take place in a

1:05:25

new way. And I want to make sure

1:05:27

that others don't do it. Let us be

1:05:30

the ones to have done it to warn

1:05:32

others. And I'm not a

1:05:34

confrontational person, but I do like

1:05:36

justice. Justice is something that is

1:05:38

like baked into me. And this

1:05:41

has been so unfair and one

1:05:43

sided. And yeah, I'd like

1:05:45

to see him come to

1:05:47

justice. He's walking around with a tremendous

1:05:49

amount of financial

1:05:51

assets and money without having delivered

1:05:53

goods to people. Not even that

1:05:56

I think we want them, but

1:05:58

the point is like We were

1:06:00

sold a bill of goods. And we

1:06:02

were really hurt in that

1:06:04

process. And I just, you

1:06:07

know, I hope the people that are still

1:06:09

in the project, perhaps if any of them

1:06:11

hear it, they can know that this is

1:06:13

not the simple story of like jolted lovers

1:06:15

who were old enough to know better. And

1:06:17

therefore it's just not. We just wouldn't be

1:06:19

doing this and putting ourselves at risk. No.

1:06:22

Otherwise. One of my deepest

1:06:24

fears is that if this is just

1:06:26

an episode in his life, he will

1:06:28

evolve into something else next. And

1:06:31

I mean, we see that pattern. We know

1:06:33

his prior history to this and it's just

1:06:35

gonna keep going on and

1:06:37

on. I mean, it would be nice

1:06:39

to save some victims. Absolutely.

1:06:42

How much do you think he's built from

1:06:44

people? Like thousands, millions, hundreds of thousands? We've

1:06:46

talked about this and I would estimate it

1:06:48

to be between one and a half to

1:06:50

$2 million. Well,

1:06:53

I'm sure you don't want his art, but

1:06:55

maybe you want your money back. Yeah, we would all

1:06:57

love our money back and looking possibly

1:06:59

more because with that money, then

1:07:02

he certainly invested that money into other things,

1:07:04

which he's entitled, but as

1:07:06

to what he has versus what

1:07:08

he's reported, what he's paid

1:07:11

taxes on. I mean, we don't know

1:07:13

the specifics. I don't wanna get into

1:07:15

any trouble legally speculating,

1:07:17

but he's even said

1:07:20

it publicly, joking about not

1:07:22

paying taxes on his LFGs. So

1:07:24

we just know he has a lot of assets

1:07:27

tucked away and hidden in various spots.

1:07:30

Anything that we didn't ask

1:07:32

that you feel like

1:07:34

you need to say and record it in this time

1:07:37

capsule of where you are now? I can just

1:07:39

say what I would want to

1:07:41

say to the listeners in

1:07:43

some ways, like a couple of

1:07:46

things, three, to be precise, it

1:07:48

can be first, I got very

1:07:50

personal about this story and I

1:07:52

described in great detail how this

1:07:54

happened to me because I'm not

1:07:57

the first teenager who... happen

1:08:00

to be in this situation, I will

1:08:02

not be the last. And I think

1:08:04

it's super important to talk about this

1:08:06

for people to understand how this is

1:08:08

happening in general, that this is not

1:08:11

like not an asset. Wow, you trusted

1:08:13

the man you never saw. That's your

1:08:15

problem. No, it's not really. It's not

1:08:17

a me problem. That's an important topic.

1:08:19

I'm really glad that we got to

1:08:21

talk about it more. Also, a great

1:08:23

thing about healing after this, something

1:08:26

that I have experienced in the

1:08:28

aftermath of us coming forward and

1:08:30

me dealing with, of course, I've

1:08:32

been to like two therapists in

1:08:34

two different languages. That goes without

1:08:36

saying, but also I started feeling

1:08:39

like I cannot trust myself and

1:08:41

I cannot trust my own judgment

1:08:43

about other people. And what happened

1:08:45

literally in the aftermath, like next

1:08:47

week's I met a wonderful person.

1:08:50

And I also kind of started catching feelings,

1:08:52

started hanging out a guy

1:08:54

from a group of our friends and it turned

1:08:56

out to be, well, I was

1:08:58

very scared. I was like, I cannot do

1:09:00

this again. I cannot do a relationship. I'm

1:09:02

not ready. I'm such a wreck. But

1:09:05

I kind of went for

1:09:07

it and allowed myself to

1:09:09

explore this, of course, like

1:09:11

on my own terms. But

1:09:13

what it turned out to

1:09:15

be is the best relationship

1:09:18

ever I've ever been in. And this,

1:09:20

that person is just, it brings such

1:09:22

an effortless self-proclaimed love to the space

1:09:25

that I'm in. And it's just, it's

1:09:27

very easy. It's fun. It's safe. And

1:09:29

the thing about that is it is

1:09:31

very important not to let bad

1:09:34

things that happened in your

1:09:36

life to like hold you

1:09:38

from experiencing what is good

1:09:40

about the life. And like,

1:09:43

I'm really glad that I did experience

1:09:45

this. Like life is just, it can

1:09:47

be different. Not everyone is a psychopath,

1:09:49

you know? It's fun basically. And the

1:09:51

last thing is

1:09:54

just, it's just a general advice for

1:09:56

everyone out there. If you cannot do

1:09:58

it properly, For God's sake, do not

1:10:00

start a cult because those

1:10:03

tend to end pretty ugly. Thank

1:10:05

you. So glad that you found wisdom. What a

1:10:07

lovely positive note to end on

1:10:10

that you can go through this and still

1:10:12

find love and learn to trust yourself again.

1:10:14

It's really, really

1:10:16

beautiful thing, Kat. And so sorry that this

1:10:18

happened to all of you. And thank you

1:10:20

guys for sharing your stories. It's not easy.

1:10:22

It truly is not. Like

1:10:26

what you hear, do you? Give us

1:10:28

a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes.

1:10:30

Every little bit helps us get this cult

1:10:32

awareness content out there. Smash that

1:10:35

subscribe button. You know you want to. What

1:10:40

do you think, Sarah? Discord? Well, first-

1:10:43

Discord cults? Are they a thing of the future? They

1:10:46

are. Are we going to be doing more episodes? We

1:10:48

will. And first of all, I also

1:10:50

want to thank the Ted platform for giving me

1:10:52

the opportunity to do my Ted Talk, which brought

1:10:54

me into contact with Charm, who is

1:10:56

the first person to reach out from this group and

1:10:59

start chatting with me and say, holy shit, this

1:11:01

is all, I was in

1:11:03

a cult. And that's always a hard thing

1:11:06

to recognize. And I

1:11:08

appreciate the tenacity and fervor in

1:11:10

which she decided to rally

1:11:12

the troops here. And make it happen. Yeah. And

1:11:15

make it happen. The Edward Talk is turning out to be a great

1:11:17

resource. Why do you call it the Edward Talk? Because Ted is short

1:11:19

for Edward, isn't it? Oh, okay. Brilliant.

1:11:23

Ed Talk. Please do give our guests

1:11:25

some love and support. And if you

1:11:27

are listening to this and you happen

1:11:29

to be a member of the grotto

1:11:31

or connected to Jaime in any particular

1:11:33

way and you're like, is this a

1:11:36

cult? Is this not a cult? Play

1:11:38

this for them. Play this for them. But also I

1:11:40

want to say like, it doesn't even have to be

1:11:42

a cult. Are you in a healthy dynamic? Do you

1:11:44

feel good doing this? Do you feel

1:11:46

like this is good for you? And

1:11:49

this is sort of my new thing right now. Let's

1:11:51

just even take the word cult off the table. Yeah,

1:11:53

that's a good point. Toxic or a healthy dynamic? And

1:11:56

just from the outside, it doesn't look healthy to

1:11:58

me. So take care.

1:12:00

If you're not sure and you need

1:12:02

resources, please don't forget we have a

1:12:04

resource page, lovebutcultie.com/ resources.

1:12:07

That will go really nicely with your new silver

1:12:09

and black, a little bit culty fanny pack, now

1:12:12

available for the inner circle. Fanny packs

1:12:14

are making a comeback. Which also comes with a

1:12:16

discord channel, which is also not culty. Not

1:12:19

yet. Not yet. Until next time.

1:12:21

Bye. Sinking down to

1:12:23

the depths of the ocean. I'm

1:12:26

hanging on to the wind

1:12:28

of my love. If I

1:12:31

let go of it all I could leave, but

1:12:34

I know I won't. Thanks

1:12:40

for listening, everyone. We're heading over

1:12:42

to patreon.com/a little bit culty now

1:12:44

to discuss this episode. In the

1:12:47

meantime, dear listener, please remember, this

1:12:49

podcast is solely for general informational,

1:12:51

educational and entertainment purposes. It's not

1:12:53

intended as a substitute for real,

1:12:56

medical, legal or therapeutic advice. For

1:12:58

cult recovery resources and to learn

1:13:00

more about seeking safely in this

1:13:02

culty world, check out alittlebitculty.com/culty resources

1:13:05

and don't miss Sarah's TED talk

1:13:07

called, How Cult Literate Are You?

1:13:09

Great stuff. A Little Bit Culty

1:13:11

is a Trace 120 production, executive

1:13:14

produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippey

1:13:17

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