0:01

Her last. Gasp young media student taylor

0:03

arise and everyone's place to same.

0:07

Because it means I can finally get a drink. Biggest in

0:09

Twenty Ten and nineteen year old Taylor

0:11

our back was working in a community

0:14

radio station trying to make his way

0:16

into media. Cheesed,

0:18

where did that And one of the

0:20

first ways he tried was by appearing

0:23

on a reality tv show where contestants

0:25

battled to host the best dinner party.

0:27

These are on the overcooked side. There's nothing I

0:29

can do about it now. No point worrying and

0:31

let's just hope they don't notice. Are trying get

0:34

a bit. Of and in one moment and he

0:36

tells the produces why he will be good on

0:38

the show. Loves arguing these people.

0:40

The drama of at the theater

0:42

of a good site at the

0:45

dinner party that at the dinner

0:47

table is something that I relish.

0:52

From Shorts Media I'm and recall

0:54

Mack this is seven am. Former.

1:01

Channel Seven producer Taylor Our Back

1:04

has given extraordinary evidence and Bruce

1:06

Landmines defamation trial against Channel Ten.

1:09

His evidence is significant enough that

1:11

the judge sensationally reopen the case

1:13

and it could impact the final

1:16

verdict, but it's also led to

1:18

explosive allegations that ask questions at

1:20

the entire strongly in media. So

1:23

what has Our Back alleged and

1:25

why has he come forward now

1:28

today? Senior reporter for the Saturday

1:30

Paper, Rick Morton. On the

1:32

three men who are now at the center

1:34

of debris slim and defamation case. It's

1:42

Tuesday, April nine. Rick

1:49

In the past week, the entire

1:51

country has been pretty absorbed by

1:53

the conduct of some Australian Tv

1:55

produces, which has come to light

1:58

during Bruce Lemons defamation try. against

2:00

Channel 10 to begin with. Can

2:02

you tell me who they are? We're

2:04

talking about three men here really who until

2:07

very recently they all worked together at

2:09

Channel 7 on their Sunday night current

2:11

affairs show Spot White. And the

2:13

first man you kind of need to know is Steve Jackson.

2:18

Now Jackson had been a minor celebrity

2:21

inside Australian media circles, particularly

2:23

in Sydney. For an incident that

2:25

happened in 2006 has become

2:27

almost mythical and inside of folklore. But it

2:29

is real and it really has happened. And

2:31

it happened at the Eveningstar Hotel in Surrey

2:33

Hills, which colloquially was known

2:35

as the Evil Star. Which is one

2:38

of the pubs in this kind of

2:40

Bermuda triangle around News Corporation, South Street,

2:42

Lanka. So there were regular knock off

2:45

drinks. And Jackson who was at

2:47

the time a sub editor with the

2:49

Daily Telegraph got into an

2:51

argument with a former Daily Telegraph crime reporter,

2:53

Stephen Gibbs, who was actually a crime reporter

2:55

at the Sydney Morning Herald at that time.

2:58

And they were all drinking into the early

3:00

hours with a bunch of other journos. And

3:02

Gibbs allegedly told Jackson that he was

3:04

a postie. Now we don't know any,

3:06

you know, some theories say that Jackson had told

3:08

Jim that he was riding with a sheet and his pub

3:11

was terrible, etc, etc. What we

3:13

do know after that is

3:15

that according to the memory telling of

3:17

this story, Gibbs left and returned to

3:19

the pub with a gun and

3:22

kind of held it to Jackson's

3:24

stomach and threatened him. Now,

3:27

part of the reason this has gone down in

3:29

folklore is that the police were never able to

3:31

go through with prosecution. Eventually there was a weapons

3:33

charge possessing a prohibited

3:35

weapon that was eventually dropped. Other

3:38

journalists at the pub that night didn't

3:40

see anything. But even later,

3:42

the assault charge was dropped because and I'm not

3:44

I wish I was kidding, but the lawyers essentially

3:46

argued that everybody was too drunk and

3:49

nobody remembered anything. But it

3:51

did go through the courts up until that

3:53

point. So that's how we know about all of this stuff,

3:55

right? And so shortly after that, the case was through the

3:57

court for almost a year. 2007

4:00

at the end of that year Jackson goes off to the UK.

4:03

He gets jobs at the Daily Mirror and then at

4:05

the Guardian of all places. And

4:07

then returns to Australia where he's made chief

4:10

staff of the News Corp's Sunday Telegraph

4:12

which is their prized Sunday paper. And

4:14

then eventually head of news at both the Daily

4:16

Telegraph and the Sunday Telegraph. So a really big

4:20

kind of job that straddled the entire output of

4:22

the biggest papers in Sydney for News Corp at

4:24

the time. And of course Jack

4:27

O'Wes, who's known to everyone, goes off again to

4:29

work for Spotlight on Channel 7 where

4:32

he eventually becomes the supervising producer

4:35

of the first ever television sit down interview with

4:37

Bruce Lerman. And this is where we get to

4:39

the second character in this story who

4:41

alongside Jackson on that assignment is the

4:43

more junior producer Taylor Orback. And

4:46

of course he's now testifying at the Lerman

4:48

trial to throw this case back open into

4:50

whether Bruce Lerman had been

4:52

defamed by Channel 10's The

4:55

Project. And that of course has dragged

4:57

in a third character in this story, their

4:59

boss, Mark Llewellyn, the executive producer

5:02

of Spotlight. And Rick,

5:04

what is it that Taylor Orback had

5:06

to say about that interview that has

5:08

sensationally reopened this trial and why

5:11

is he saying it now? I

5:13

think that's a very good question and it's probably worth starting

5:15

with the why. Orback and

5:17

Jackson until very recently were not

5:20

just friends but very close friends.

5:22

They worked extremely closely together. By some

5:24

accounts it was Jackson that

5:27

helped Taylor Orback get the

5:29

cadetship that started his career

5:32

at The Daily Telegraph in around

5:34

2010. And

5:36

because Orback had, you know, he was quite

5:39

desperately so wanting to be a journalist. He was

5:41

a journalism student when he was on, in

5:44

2010, a featured contestant on

5:46

the competitive dinner party show on Foxtel

5:48

called Come Dine With Me where he

5:51

hosted a rock and roll themed dinner

5:53

party. We

6:01

learn a few things about Albach which is he's already

6:03

itching for a fight in this episode because he says

6:05

he loves the theater of the fight at the dinner

6:07

party or the dinner table. And that he really, he's

6:09

like 18 at this point, 18 or 19, he

6:12

really really really loves Elvis Presley and Elvis might be

6:14

the love of his life. Elvis Presley

6:17

is my man. I love his music, I

6:19

love his movies because he sings in it

6:21

and I can call him a good looking

6:23

man without being worried about my sexuality as

6:25

well. He is

6:27

a love of my life. Now,

6:30

eventually this kind of proximity to the

6:32

limelight, you know, led him into Jackson's

6:34

arms and Jackson becomes his mentor to

6:37

Taylor Albach. They are kind of two

6:40

peas in a pod and actually, you know, I used

6:42

to work at News Corp. I should probably declare the

6:44

fact that I've worked at News Corp. And they were

6:46

inseparable. And according to former colleagues at the

6:48

time who worked with both of them, you know, Albach

6:50

was the guy that would do anything for a story.

6:53

Nothing was too shameless or

6:55

shame-inducing. And they said, you know, anything

6:57

you asked him, he'd do it. And he almost

6:59

always delivered it. And they said, as long as he didn't break

7:01

any actual laws, we didn't ask too many questions about his methods.

7:03

It was just, did he get the yarn? And

7:07

it seems that approach kind of characterized Albach

7:09

and Jackson's pursuit of this interview with Bruce

7:11

Lerman. Now, Albach

7:14

now alleges that courting Bruce Lerman for

7:16

an interview became a sort of win

7:18

at all cost situation for both him

7:21

and Steve Jackson. You know, they

7:23

were trying to please their bosses at seven, which involved,

7:25

you know, golf trips

7:27

to Tasmania to kind

7:29

of consort with Bruce Lerman. There

7:32

were dinners and lunches and tickets

7:35

to sporting events. And

7:37

it kind of all culminated, maybe not

7:39

chronologically, but certainly in terms of intensity

7:42

and pressure in this massive night out

7:44

in Sydney. This is

7:46

early January, 2023. And

7:48

then, of course, Bruce Lerman and

7:50

John McGowan, who's a kind of conservative

7:52

right wing political fixer. He

7:55

makes problems go away and also creates, according to

7:57

his bio on Twitter. They all go back

7:59

to the American public. It on a bomb. It's in

8:01

Sydney and be stricken. And.

8:04

Bruce. Low. Immediately according to the old

8:06

access, many start talking about ordering sex

8:08

workers to the premises and we actually

8:11

had six messages from All That to

8:13

Steve Jackson going Vs On the Warpath.

8:15

It's. And. He's

8:17

taxing state decks and join essentially

8:20

help. What do I do? Ah,

8:22

and of course that not. And

8:26

then that's when we get some of

8:28

the clan from all back. Channel Seven

8:30

transferred at least some of that money

8:32

via per Zola flash pre. Production Costs

8:34

to keep are slim and happy. As

8:38

things transpire, the relationship between Steve

8:40

Jackson and Tyler. All that completely

8:42

breaks down. And. Like

8:45

a completely to the point where or back

8:47

is awesome stance about his old friend you

8:50

hate him dying Tuesday Jackson to It's All

8:52

About responded Yes I do indeed. Yes

8:55

sir, I do. And

8:57

the reason we're now even talking about any

8:59

this and the fact that all backers even

9:01

before the court is because Steve Jackson got

9:04

a job. For. Three thousand dollars a

9:06

year as the Police commissioners teeth spin

9:08

doctor Karen were be nice of Laos

9:10

and she'd gone through to spin doctors,

9:12

hadn't played, recently fired a former News

9:14

competitively dagon and then she'd hide Steve

9:16

Jackson and seem destined total his colleagues

9:18

had resigned at Portland. He told his

9:20

colleagues that he was going to work

9:22

for the commissioner and then of course

9:25

that's that's hit reported and it raises

9:27

eyebrows because I'm from Steve Jackson has.

9:29

Some. Live in. Interesting to him

9:31

and all. Back by all accounts,

9:34

start back landing against his former

9:36

friend who's now sworn enemy. To.

9:39

Kill off that job prospects. And

9:41

in the process of doing. Mentions.

9:45

Some. Of the things that they engaged in to

9:47

get the Bruce Lomond story and Embers Lemon says

9:49

it didn't happen. It was bizarre story concocted by

9:51

the. Purchaser and then

9:53

terror. All that says or I think

9:56

I'm going to get defamation live and

9:58

I'm also gonna submit muscle. Okay,

10:02

For. Channel Ten. And. They be

10:04

to reopen this thing and. And

10:08

Greek these allegations says many

10:10

extensive allegations. They've just been

10:12

talking about some about how

10:14

Channel Seven secured this interview

10:16

with very slim and they're

10:18

obviously really it's place is.

10:20

How high did knowledge of

10:22

these allegations go at the

10:24

network and what do know

10:26

about. What else is going on

10:28

a Channel Seven? Yeah, I'm in. This

10:30

blows my mind and I've been around

10:32

bits to swear. Third character and started

10:34

this is Martha Luella. He was brought

10:36

in as the executive producer a Spotless.

10:38

Now it should be kind of noted

10:40

that Llewelyn has denied all wrongdoing in

10:43

relation to the Lemon Enemies as has

10:45

Channel Seven and I said that Summers

10:47

tell old allegations are completely sub guided

10:49

and that Llewellyn has said he plays

10:51

the jealous and damn hard but never

10:53

at the expense of the truth. And

10:55

but what is clear. Is that Llewellyn

10:57

was central? To. The Networks pursuit

11:00

of this interview with Lemon and

11:02

Llewellyn flew. With. All back

11:04

to Tasmania on that trip to

11:06

play golf with Brooklyn and we

11:08

is weird how but alleges that

11:10

he was given some of the

11:13

material. From the criminal

11:15

trial. By. Bruce Lemon And most

11:17

disturbingly the reason why this is that

11:19

relevant to this defamation trouble is that

11:21

all that alleged that Martha well and

11:23

was involved in obtaining the two thousand

11:25

francs. Or clinic

11:27

and tix must Die and sector which

11:29

is been key part of the trial

11:31

because no one has been able to

11:33

prove. Who leaked these text

11:35

messages to Channel Seven? And that's

11:37

important because. All of this

11:40

stuff was handed over to Bruce Lemons legal

11:42

team and Bruce Lemon as part of the

11:44

normal procedure in a criminal trial. Of course,

11:46

if you're the defendant, you have access to

11:48

the material seguin matter tests, but according to

11:51

the harm and principal. And ah,

11:53

kind of most other. Traditional.

11:55

Interpretations of the law. that material

11:58

cannot be used in a other

12:00

way, it cannot prejudice a person, you

12:03

can't just use criminal proceedings whether you're

12:05

the accused or not to

12:07

gain access to personal information about some civilian and

12:09

then leak it to the press. It

12:12

can't be done and yet on the laptop screen

12:14

which Taylor Auerbach alleges,

12:16

Mark Llewellyn photographed private

12:19

text messages from Brittany Higgins to Peter

12:21

Fitzsimons about her book deal which were

12:23

only available in the criminal

12:26

evidence tent that wasn't necessarily tended

12:28

in court. Now if

12:30

this allegation is proven to be

12:32

true then it implicates both Llewellyn

12:34

and Lerman. After

12:38

the break what Taylor Auerbach's allegations

12:40

mean for the looming outcome of

12:43

Bruce Lerman's defamation trial? You

12:51

can't throw a rock without hitting a journalist who

12:53

thinks they can write fiction and most of them

12:55

are wrong but investigative reporter Louise

12:57

Milligan bucks the trend. Her new

12:59

novel called Pheasant's Nest and we

13:01

talk about it on this week's

13:03

Read This wherever you get your

13:05

podcasts. Investigative

13:07

reporter Louise Milligan started writing her

13:09

first novel almost a decade ago

13:12

but a few things got in

13:14

the way. Basically I wrote three

13:16

chapters put it away for seven years, wrote

13:19

my first book Cardinal, my

13:21

second book Witness, got sued

13:23

by the Attorney General. I'm Michael Williams and

13:25

on this week's episode of Read This I

13:33

chat with Louise Milligan about her first

13:36

novel Pheasant's Nest. Find it

13:38

wherever you listen. Rick

13:42

this case is about the original story

13:44

that aired of Brittany Higgins's claim that

13:46

she had been raped at Parliament House.

13:49

That first story which Bruce

13:51

Lerman has always denied and is now suing

13:53

Channel 10 over. How

13:55

exactly does this new evidence fit

13:57

into or kind of alter that and What's

14:00

at stake here? All that has now

14:02

become a sort of star witness for Channel

14:04

10 because his evidence goes both to Bruce

14:06

Lerman's integrity and honesty, which is central

14:09

to a defamation trial, which

14:11

has to test the reputation and good standing of that

14:13

applicant in order to decide

14:15

whether he's even got a reputation, right? But his

14:18

evidence goes to several points, really. First of all,

14:20

the allegation of whether or not Lerman handed over

14:22

documents that he shouldn't have Channel 7, which Bruce

14:24

Lerman denied in evidence under

14:27

questioning from Lisa Wilkinson's barrister, Asu

14:30

Chrisanthu, he said, no, I only

14:32

gave them an interview. So

14:34

that would be an enormous breach of

14:36

his oath for a

14:38

start. Now, secondly, the allegation that he

14:40

made illicit demands of seven in their

14:42

courtship of him for an interview further

14:45

goes to Bruce Lerman's integrity. And so

14:47

we're now expecting a judgment in

14:50

a defamation trial between Bruce Lerman and

14:53

Channel 10 and Lisa Wilkinson.

14:55

And the judges will have to rule on not

14:58

only whether Channel 10 discharged its duties properly, and

15:01

that what it aired, which was an interview with

15:03

Brittany Higgins, which never named Bruce Lerman, but which

15:05

could have identified him, and which subsequently he was

15:07

named in other media reports after the fact, whether

15:10

that interview was substantially true or

15:13

substantially false. And if it

15:15

was substantially true, whether it was covered, or not substantially

15:17

true, whether it was covered by qualified privilege, but

15:20

whether those allegations could reasonably believe to

15:22

be about Bruce Lerman, and

15:25

whether or not those allegations actually damaged

15:27

his reputation. And that's

15:29

the key decision now, which we're

15:31

awaiting. I think

15:33

in the court case, well, certainly it's

15:35

been closed again for the decision, and

15:37

barring any other major twist and turn,

15:39

we will get decision soon. And

15:43

yeah, this trial is about Bruce

15:45

Lerman's reputation, but I feel like

15:47

the further along we get the

15:49

reputations of media networks, especially Channel

15:51

7 and the Spotlight

15:53

program are really on the line

15:55

here. It feels like this trial is kind of turning

15:58

into a fight between Network 7 and Channel 7. versus

16:00

Network 10. Just

16:02

to go back to that, I'm wondering how

16:04

is Seven handling this very

16:07

unflattering publicity that's on them now? I

16:10

mean, they're in damage control, both the Spotlight

16:12

Program and the network in general. So

16:15

Channel 7 were issued with two subpoenas as

16:17

part of the defamation trial.

16:19

By Channel 10, the

16:21

moment that they watched, or their

16:23

lawyers watched the Spotlight Program, and

16:26

then the moment they watched the second Spotlight

16:28

Program, there were two with Bruce Lerman. In

16:30

both cases, they were hit with subpoenas for

16:32

all documents and information that might be relevant

16:35

to the defamation proceeding. Now, Channel

16:37

7 in what was a

16:39

six-month courtship of Bruce Lerman,

16:41

contended that there was only a

16:43

single text message exchange relating to

16:45

that between their employees, and

16:48

they handed over after much fighting, indeed,

16:50

the contract for the interview itself, which

16:53

they really couldn't pretend didn't exist, which

16:55

is how we found out that they had agreed

16:57

to pay a year's worth of Bruce Lerman's rent,

17:00

which was worth more than $100,000, which was

17:02

never disclosed. So that stuff

17:04

was handed over. But what we've now found

17:07

out because of Taylor Orback's intervention was

17:09

that Bruce MacWilliam wrote to

17:11

the court in an affidavit last week

17:13

or the week before. And

17:16

now he's Kerry Stokes' right-hand man who has

17:18

always been there through thick and thin. And

17:20

he says, oh, okay, yes. So we didn't

17:22

do any searches of

17:24

our internal email servers because

17:27

Mark Llewellyn told us, he gave us

17:29

an untested assurance that

17:31

there was nothing to find. So we didn't do any

17:33

searches. So Channel 7 didn't hand

17:35

over stuff that they were legally required to,

17:37

and Kerry Stokes is the chairperson of 7 West

17:39

Media, and

17:42

is no doubt furious, reportedly, about the

17:44

allegations, and Spotlight is under review at

17:46

the highest level. There were emergency meetings

17:48

between executives the moment these allegations started

17:50

coming out. But now, of course, we've

17:53

got Steve Jackson, who's out of two

17:55

jobs. Lost the police

17:57

commissioner job because of his friendship with Orback

17:59

that second. Howard and he's resigned from

18:01

General Seveld already and he's probably not going to get that one

18:03

back. So that's gone. All that

18:05

career is over for now at least unless

18:07

he pivots back into cooking shows. Mark

18:10

Llewellyn and Seveld were in emergency talks late

18:12

last week. It's hard to see

18:14

how anything good comes out of that. And

18:18

you know, just if you step back and

18:20

try and fit it all into view, the

18:23

carnage of this alleged incident between Brittany Higgins

18:25

and Bruce Llewellyn is absolutely, absolutely

18:28

staggering and gobsmacking. And

18:30

finally, Rick, you know, as someone who's worked

18:32

in the media for some time, what do

18:35

you think people should take away from

18:37

what's been alleged here? I guess

18:39

when it comes to the approach of people in

18:42

mainstream journalism, is this an aberration

18:44

or kind of the norm? You

18:47

know, every journalist, you know, it's very easy for someone to just kind

18:49

of sit here like me and just be like, oh yes, naughty, naughty.

18:52

But I do think it is required of

18:55

all of us to have a longhard think

18:57

about what we actually do and why we

18:59

do it. I

19:06

am torn about all this stuff. Like I have, I

19:08

still think journalism can be good. But

19:11

increasingly, I see even kind

19:13

of mild and sort of inoffensive versions

19:16

of journalism just being like, well, what is

19:18

the point? You

19:22

know, even just, you know, in a

19:24

completely anodyne world where people are chasing exclusives

19:26

and they're not even important exclusives, they're just

19:28

like, I managed to report this piece

19:31

of information about this program first

19:33

or this kind of maneuvering in parliament

19:35

I reported first, but only by an hour.

19:38

And then everyone else reported it. And

19:48

again, I'm not sitting here as someone who's better than that.

19:50

It sounds like I'm having a crisis of

19:52

confidence with Jayan. I

19:54

don't know that the culture is happening, you know, the

19:56

Wild West days seem to be over, or at least

19:59

I thought they were. the

20:01

days of the staggering long luncheon,

20:03

vanishingly rare these days.

20:05

But you can still have

20:08

these cultures bubble up and you still do the kind

20:10

of winner takes all, no

20:13

holds barred, do everything you can to get the

20:15

story. And it's

20:17

just tasteful. It's really, it leaves

20:19

a place for bad taste. Rick,

20:23

thanks so much for speaking with me today. Thanks,

20:26

Ann, it's always a pleasure. Thanks

20:30

for watching. Also

21:05

in the news today, opposition leader Peter Dutton has

21:07

already hit out at the Federal

21:09

Government Review into supermarket prices, saying

21:12

the appointment of former Labor Ministers

21:14

Craig Emerson and Wayne Swan meant

21:16

he believed the final report would

21:18

be dictated by current Treasurer Jim

21:20

Chalmers. In a press conference

21:23

yesterday, he branded it a quote from the

21:25

Mickey Mouse Review. And

21:27

reports indicate that 17 homes have been left uninhabitable

21:30

after flooding on the East Coast over

21:33

the weekend. The Australian

21:35

Associated Press reported flood damage was

21:37

particularly bad around the Hawkesbury area of

21:40

the South Coast, leaving 800 people to

21:42

be under an evacuation order and

21:44

160 homes damaged. I'm

21:47

Ann Schramkelmack, this is 7am. Thanks so

21:49

much for listening. We'll be back again

21:51

tomorrow. Thank

21:55

you. you