0:00

This is Vanessa Ivy Rose, and

0:02

I'm so happy you've been enjoying the latest

0:04

season of ABC's series, Reclaimed,

0:08

The Forgotten League, right here in

0:10

the 30 for 30 podcast feed.

0:12

It's been a pleasure getting to tell you about my grandfather

0:15

and to shed a light on the stories of Black baseball.

0:18

Today, we're bringing you the final episode of our

0:20

story. If you like it, I

0:22

hope you'll follow the Reclaimed podcast for

0:25

more stories like this one. And

0:27

make sure to stay tuned right here, because

0:29

the next 30 for 30 podcast is coming your way

0:32

in February. I can't wait. Until

0:35

next time, thank you. Here's

0:38

today's episode. Let's

0:41

go, come on. Let's get moving. Let's

0:44

get moving. Let's go, come

0:46

on.

0:47

There are two teams warming up

0:49

to face each other in a stadium

0:51

in Detroit. Both of

0:53

them are made up of Black high school students, joking

0:56

and jostling with

0:57

each other on the side of the field. Started

1:00

playing baseball around, I'd say three.

1:03

I played tee ball with my dad and I just

1:05

went on from there.

1:06

This is Jacoby Radcliffe. He's 18

1:09

years old. He's actually built

1:11

a little like my grandpa. He's

1:14

at least six feet tall and has that

1:16

same slim frame. But

1:19

the most noticeable thing about him is

1:22

his confidence. My

1:24

walkout song. OK, it's this song.

1:26

It's called Outside by Moe Three. It's

1:29

a great song, by the way.

1:30

It's baptize, it's nap time. And they can

1:32

find me in the north side, get hogs

1:35

high. Yeah, cause I'm outside, I'm

1:37

outside. They won't smoke, tell them

1:39

we outside.

1:40

Jacoby is about to play in a tribute

1:42

game for the Negro Leagues. So

1:45

he and the other players are decked out in the old

1:47

time uniforms. Jacoby

1:50

is wearing the Chicago American Giants

1:52

signature gray jersey with bold

1:54

red lettering and socks pulled high. And

1:58

this game. is one of his

2:01

last with his youth team. I graduated

2:03

high school June 7th in

2:06

the fall I would be attending Southern University

2:09

in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I'm on a

2:11

baseball scholarship and academic too. It's

2:14

very difficult because you had to go to a showcase

2:16

to perform in front of a lot of scouts and

2:19

the scouts have to like you in order

2:21

to offer you. So it was

2:23

a bit of a challenge because there was a lot of good dudes there. It's

2:27

hard to stay inspired,

2:28

to keep training to be the best.

2:31

But when you see someone who looks like you, doing

2:34

what you want to do, it

2:37

makes your dream feel possible.

2:40

For Jacoby, that's what happens when

2:42

he sees his favorite player, Padres

2:45

outfielder Juan Soto.

2:48

Like Juan Soto he'll do like this shuffle.

2:51

And I was like, when I first hear I was like, yeah, I'm doing it.

2:53

You, cause it's really intimidating the pitcher. They

2:55

don't wanna throw at you. That's a free base or

2:58

throw a fastball in and I just, you know,

3:00

hit a home run or a double. No, so it

3:02

was really a win-win situation for me.

3:06

What baseball gives Jacoby is

3:08

what I imagined it gave grandpa Turkey a

3:11

hundred years ago.

3:13

And knowing that he paved the way for players

3:15

like Jacoby

3:16

makes me feel proud.

3:21

I could be anybody who I wanna be on the field. It

3:24

makes me feel like I'm alive. There

3:30

is in theory, nothing stopping Jacoby from

3:34

getting into the majors, from

3:36

being the next Juan Soto, if

3:39

he wants to.

3:43

There's an easy story that people like to

3:45

tell about the Negro leagues. And

3:47

it goes like this.

3:50

Players like my grandfather endured all

3:52

that mistreatment and discrimination so

3:54

that one day players like Jacoby wouldn't

3:57

have to.

3:58

They would get the chances.

3:59

their grandfathers were denied. But

4:03

the truth is, even now,

4:06

can we honestly say that the space for

4:08

black players like Jacoby

4:10

is as big as the space for white players?

4:16

People think the Negro Leagues

4:18

is a story about the past, but

4:21

it isn't. The

4:23

Negro Leagues are part of the story

4:26

of black baseball today.

4:29

How we handle the legacy of past

4:31

injustice is how we write

4:34

what comes next. Because

4:36

those injustices, they

4:38

haven't been answered for.

4:41

And now, the soul

4:43

of the game hangs in the balance.

4:54

From ABC Audio, this

4:56

is Brie Klain, The

4:58

Forgotten League. I'm

5:01

Vanessa Ivy Rose.

5:04

Episode 6, A

5:07

White Man Sport.

5:13

After 12 o'clock, is that OK? After 12

5:16

or 1, 1 o'clock, is that OK?

5:19

All right,

5:22

we'll save you sight. What size do you need?

5:23

While Jacoby is warming

5:25

up inside, I'm out

5:27

front handing out t-shirts. I'm

5:30

a board member for an organization called

5:33

Friends of Historic Hamtramck Stadium,

5:36

which is where the game is being played.

5:39

So I'm here to watch it

5:40

and spend a little time with

5:43

family and friends. Can

5:45

you deliver some chairs with a birthday gift?

5:48

Deliver two wooden chairs if you

5:50

can. This is my

5:52

friend Gary.

5:54

He's the founder of, well, hold

5:56

up. I'll let him tell you.

5:58

Gary Gillette.

5:59

Founder of the Friends of Historic Camp Tramix

6:02

Stadium in 2012, Bon Vivant,

6:04

Man about Town, raconteur, flaner,

6:07

not gainfully employed. I've been working

6:10

on this project for 12 years now

6:12

and it's such a joy to see it come to fruition. Do

6:15

I look excited? I am very excited.

6:17

I'm very, very happy.

6:19

This project that Gary has been working

6:21

on is Camp Tramix Stadium.

6:24

Today we're doing a rededication of Historic

6:26

Camp Tramix Stadium, first opened in 1930, rebuilt

6:29

in 1941, closed in 1997,

6:32

and it's been rehabilitated according to historic

6:34

preservation standards and we're reopening it today

6:37

with the tribute game to the Negro Leagues

6:39

and one of four living Negro League players

6:41

still in the U.S. We've

6:44

named the field in honor of Turkey Stearns,

6:46

Hall of Famer and Detroit Stars Great, so

6:48

the full name would be Norman Turkey Stearns

6:51

Field at Historic Camp Tramix Stadium. That's

6:53

a mouthful.

6:55

Camp Tramix is a great example of

6:57

how protecting the future of the game

6:59

is about understanding the past. There

7:03

will be a ceremony before the game honoring

7:05

96-year-old former Negro League

7:07

player Ron Teasley. After

7:10

that, Jacoby's Chicago team

7:13

will play their opponents, a

7:15

Detroit team dressed in Grandpa Turkey's

7:18

old uniform, the Detroit Stars.

7:22

This stadium is where Grandpa

7:24

Turkey played some of his best years on the

7:26

Stars and where

7:29

so many other Negro League greats showed

7:31

what they could do. Satchel

7:33

Paige, Josh Gibson, Cool

7:36

Papa Bell, they all played

7:38

here.

7:40

The threat from the past to the present was broken,

7:43

but with this stadium, it has been restored.

7:48

Making that connection was

7:49

important for Gary Gillette. I've

7:51

been a member of the Society for American Baseball Research,

7:53

a nonprofit since 1983. Gary

7:56

says he always had an interest in ballparks.

7:59

wrote a book about

8:00

them. So and I did a

8:03

really huge coffee table book that if you dropped

8:05

it from five feet would kill cats

8:08

and dogs of less than 20 pounds easily

8:10

and crush them instantly. I mean

8:12

it's just a huge book. While

8:15

looking into Detroit ballparks, Gary

8:18

found research about Hamtramck Stadium, but

8:21

not very much. Gary

8:23

has worked hard to fill in the blanks of

8:25

the story. When

8:28

originally built it seated about 9,000, maybe another 1,000

8:30

or 2 in bleachers. In

8:34

the early 1970s to save

8:37

money on maintenance, the city cut

8:40

the grandstand back on both wings to

8:42

make it smaller. At

8:46

that point it would have seated about 2,500 in bleacher seats. The

8:52

Hamtramck Fire Marshal put up a capacity

8:54

sign a couple days ago saying maximum

8:56

capacity 1,050, which

8:59

says something about our spreading butts or

9:01

cheeks or hips. I guess you can edit the

9:04

butts out, right?

9:11

The stadium is about four miles from downtown

9:13

Detroit, 10 minutes away from

9:15

Comerica Park. It's right

9:18

in the middle of the Hamtramck neighborhood. And

9:21

there's a railway line that runs

9:23

impossibly

9:24

close to the southeastern edge

9:26

of the bleachers.

9:42

Clouds of soot or not, thousands

9:45

of fans packed the grandstand to

9:48

watch players like my grandfather excel.

9:51

These stadiums were the centers of communities.

9:55

But after integration across

9:57

the country, hundreds of stadiums

9:59

that had

9:59

once held the roaring crowd

10:02

fell silent and then

10:04

fell down. And

10:07

since Negro League stories had disappeared from

10:09

public knowledge, no

10:11

one even knew they should be saved. Hamtramck

10:17

is rare.

10:19

It's one of only five

10:21

remaining Negro League ballparks left

10:24

in the country.

10:26

There's Rickwood Field in

10:28

Birmingham, Alabama, Hinchcliffe

10:32

in Patterson, New Jersey, JP

10:35

Small in Jacksonville, Florida, and

10:38

League Park in Cleveland, Ohio.

10:42

That's it. And

10:44

sure, you might say teens

10:47

move around all the time in baseball, stadiums

10:50

close and are rebuilt. Look

10:52

at Comerica Park. It replaced

10:54

the old Tiger Stadium in 2000. But

10:58

Hamtramck's stories and history never got

11:00

a new home. It

11:02

was left to rot.

11:04

Some vagrants and kids had fires

11:07

in the grandstand, so there were holes in them, charred

11:09

holes. You had to watch

11:11

where you were walking because you could step into

11:13

a hole and your leg could go through. You

11:15

could still see the outline of the pitcher's

11:17

mound and home plate where home plate would have been

11:20

and the base paths, so

11:22

they were overgrown with grass and weeds. By

11:25

the time Gary rediscovered Hamtramck

11:27

in 2008, it was fenced

11:30

off.

11:31

Anyone on the grounds would technically be

11:33

trespassing, but by now,

11:36

you can probably guess,

11:38

that didn't stop Gary. I was

11:40

here a hundred times from 2008 when I first visited it until

11:43

they started working on it. I was never here once

11:45

where there wasn't a hole in the fence that I could walk through. I

11:48

never made a hole in the fence myself. I just walked through somebody else's

11:50

hole. And so there were kids on

11:52

the grandstand.

11:52

The stadium looks so good now.

11:55

The roof is new, and there's fresh pine

11:58

on the bleacher benches. Gary

12:00

wanted to restore this place and

12:03

its history. He's done that.

12:06

But he also wanted to give kids in the city

12:08

a place to play. There's

12:11

fewer green spaces in Hamtramck than

12:13

in most cities in America. Fewer

12:16

parks means fewer diamonds.

12:18

But Gary noticed that restoring participation,

12:22

that's harder to do. Nobody

12:24

plays pickup ball. I have never seen

12:27

anybody below the age of 25 on

12:29

this field playing catch just to play

12:31

catch.

12:34

That old baseball adage, if

12:37

you build it,

12:38

they will come. Gary's

12:41

finding out that it isn't that simple. And

12:44

what he's noticing locally in Hamtramck

12:47

is something that's happening across the country. Kids

12:51

aren't playing our national pastime as

12:53

much as they used to. And

12:55

there's one group that's particularly impacted

12:58

by this, Black

13:00

youth. Professor

13:06

Earl Smith is a sports sociologist

13:08

at the University of Delaware. He's

13:11

been studying race and race relations for

13:13

over 25 years. But

13:15

before that, he was just

13:18

a little leaguer who loved the

13:20

Yankees.

13:21

I grew up in New York. And there

13:24

definitely were neighborhoods that were quote,

13:27

white only.

13:28

But I can't

13:29

remember thinking that baseball

13:31

was a white man's game. Because

13:35

I'm in the era right after

13:37

the cherry picking of

13:39

the Negro Leagues. And

13:42

there had to be stars. They

13:44

were larger than life. So

13:47

I don't think I ever saw it that way. In

13:50

fact, it took me a long time to get to

13:52

the realization that Blacks

13:54

were not playing baseball.

13:58

for

14:00

why this is. We

14:02

don't really buy them.

14:04

The person on the street

14:06

who doesn't know much

14:08

about these things, they'll

14:10

say, oh, you know, baseball is too

14:12

slow. You know, it's like watching paint

14:15

dry. People want to razzle

14:17

and dazzle like Michael Jordan.

14:20

People who said this, they

14:22

actually might have been talking about me. I

14:25

was that kid in the 90s wearing the Jordan

14:28

jersey.

14:29

But yet,

14:30

I've heard this one a lot.

14:32

Michael Jordan was just so cool that

14:35

he tempted black kids away from baseball.

14:37

And so the theories that

14:40

I've seen over the years were

14:43

exactly those kinds of everyday

14:45

thinking, not carefully

14:48

thought through. Maybe these

14:50

young men just don't want to

14:52

play baseball anymore, when

14:54

in fact it's much more complicated

14:56

than that.

14:59

If you've been listening over the last five episodes,

15:02

this might seem like a mystery. We've

15:05

talked about how baseball was a fixture in black

15:07

communities before integration. And

15:10

then after the color barrier was crossed, black

15:13

stars started to be seen and recognized

15:15

by white institutions like

15:17

the Hall of Fame. But

15:19

now, young black players

15:21

are turning away from the game.

15:27

Imagine you're a black kid growing up

15:29

today. You love baseball.

15:31

You're like Jacobi Radcliffe.

15:34

Obsessed. You've got posters

15:36

on your wall and a full fantasy

15:39

team roster on the tip of your tongue.

15:42

But there's one issue. Most

15:45

of the players don't look like you.

15:50

In 1947, the year

15:52

Jackie Robinson walked on the field for the Dodgers,

15:55

less than 1% of MLB players

15:58

were black. By 1981,

16:02

Black representation in MLB reached

16:04

its all-time peak. Almost

16:07

a fifth of all players were Black. So

16:11

where do you think that percentage lands today?

16:15

Well,

16:19

on opening day of the 2023 season, only 59 of 945 players were Black. That's

16:27

just over 6%. The

16:30

odds of seeing a Black baseball

16:32

player on the diamond were

16:34

higher in 1956 than they are today.

16:37

Now,

16:43

if you're wondering if this is the case across the

16:45

board, let me give you some extra

16:48

context about other sports in America.

16:51

The NFL and NBA both had periods

16:53

of segregation too. They

16:56

were much shorter than baseballs. Both

16:59

of these other sports now have an over-representation

17:02

of Black players. The

17:04

trend since their integration has

17:06

shown numbers of Black players increasing

17:09

over time, with no drop-off. So

17:12

what's going on with baseball? This

17:15

is going to go into a whole maze of

17:17

stuff. Okay. This

17:19

is Marissa Kiss. She

17:21

works at the Institute for Immigration Research

17:24

at George Mason University. And

17:27

Earl Smith was one of her dissertation

17:29

advisors. Together,

17:32

they wrote an op-ed for the Philadelphia Inquirer

17:35

that tried to answer this big question. Why

17:39

aren't there more Black American baseball players?

17:42

We wanted to highlight the demise

17:46

of native-born African-American players.

17:48

That was one thing that was, what

17:51

did we call it, the colony in the country

17:53

club.

17:55

The colony in the country

17:57

club. You no longer say.

17:59

that baseball is part of

18:02

the American dream. You know, Major League Baseball

18:04

now is really a story of the haves, you know,

18:06

and the have nots, really depending

18:08

on your citizenship, immigration

18:11

status, and also your race. While

18:13

Black American participation in baseball

18:16

has been going down, there's

18:18

been an

18:19

increase in MLB players born

18:21

overseas, specifically

18:24

from Latin America and the Caribbean.

18:28

This increase in players

18:28

born overseas, that's

18:31

the colony part of their op-ed

18:33

title.

18:36

It began in the second half of the 20th century,

18:40

when Major League Baseball discovered it

18:42

could get talent for cheaper from Latin

18:44

America and the Caribbean.

18:47

During the 1970s, MLB

18:50

teams such as the Los Angeles Dodgers

18:52

and Toronto Blue Jays started to send

18:54

scouts down to the Dominican Republic

18:57

to recruit and find caliber

18:59

players. Soon,

19:02

all

19:02

MLB teams started academies in the Dominican

19:05

Republic. They filled them with hundreds

19:07

of young players and built them

19:10

into future MLB stars.

19:14

Recruiting like this is cheaper,

19:17

and it allows teams to get around some of

19:19

the regulations of attracting and

19:21

training young players. For

19:24

example, players who are born

19:26

overseas are not required

19:28

to have a high school diploma or

19:30

a GED to compete. American-born

19:34

athletes aren't allowed to play without

19:36

one.

19:37

So some players in the Dominican

19:39

Republic, they're recruited as young as 12

19:41

years old. You know, they're really

19:43

taken out of school, they're taken away from their

19:45

families.

19:46

And this pipeline, it's

19:49

allowed MLB to continue

19:51

to recruit.

19:53

Develop and evaluate the play

19:55

of

19:56

not like one or two kids, but hundreds

19:58

of young players. If they're not

20:00

signed by an MLB team, they're just

20:03

left now 16, 17 years old, didn't finish

20:08

high school, don't have a job,

20:11

and there's another kid to take their spot.

20:14

The academies are a way of casting

20:16

a wide net in a talent pool.

20:19

There are plenty of players who won't make

20:22

it, but the very top players

20:24

might be lucky. 24% of

20:27

MLB's players in 2022 were

20:31

born in the Caribbean or Latin America.

20:34

They are some of the best players in the majors,

20:38

including the player Jacobi Radcliffe

20:40

admires most.

20:42

Juan Soto and Victor Robles

20:44

both came through the Nationals Academy and

20:47

the Dominican Republic. They were both

20:49

signed when they were 16 years old. That's

20:52

the minimum age limit that MLB

20:54

teams are allowed to sign for born

20:57

players.

20:58

Many players who were born in the Caribbean

21:01

and Latin America are

21:02

Afro-Latino.

21:04

So this system does put black and

21:06

brown players in the majors,

21:09

and there's nothing wrong with that. But

21:12

Earl says it also does something

21:14

to our perception of

21:16

who's being represented on the field.

21:19

I see players come from Cuba.

21:23

They look like me. And

21:25

there's good reason why. But, you

21:27

know, for simplicity's sake,

21:29

they look like me. Another

21:32

player could come from Columbia

21:34

and look like me. So

21:37

whoever is collecting the data for whatever

21:40

source, sports writer

21:42

types, they just look

21:44

out and they say, oh, that's a black player.

21:47

Last year's World

21:49

Series, for the first time in 70 years.

21:53

Think about this. This is the quintessential

21:55

game. Not

21:58

one player on both teams

22:00

was a native born African-American player.

22:03

Not one.

22:05

First time in 70 years.

22:07

That's deep.

22:10

If you've been listening to this thinking,

22:12

Hey, what about Ken Griffey Jr. Or

22:15

IZ Smith or Derek Jeter?

22:19

The list of greats of the past

22:21

goes on and on.

22:23

There's

22:23

great players out there, great

22:26

American born black players. The

22:29

point is nowadays,

22:31

there's not as many as you think. That's

22:35

because in the U.S. There's

22:38

a different system at play to

22:40

get yourself noticed by MLB. The

22:43

trouble is it's one that gives

22:45

some players an advantage over others. That's

22:48

the country club part

22:50

of Earl and Marissa's research.

22:53

Here, a kid shot at playing in the

22:55

majors is all about being noticed by

22:58

scouts and to get noticed.

23:01

It isn't enough to play in your local

23:03

ballpark because what are

23:05

the eyes that an MLB scout is

23:08

just going to happen to show up at your game

23:10

in Lansing, Michigan and

23:13

be so impressed by that double

23:15

play you did in the second inning. They're

23:17

going to invest time and energy to

23:20

keep following you.

23:22

That would be like

23:23

winning the lottery with a single ticket,

23:26

not impossible

23:28

but not likely.

23:31

But there is a way around these

23:33

bad odds.

23:34

So

23:36

you want to be the best? So

23:39

does everybody else.

23:42

That's an ad for the IMG Academy,

23:45

part of IMG Worldwide, which

23:48

runs the IMG Models Agency

23:51

at IMG Academy. Parents

23:53

can send their kids to play sports and

23:56

basically guarantee that they will

23:58

be seen by scouts at talent showcases.

24:02

In the 1990s, showcase

24:05

events like IMGs sprang

24:07

up all over the country. One

24:11

called the perfect game has

24:13

become the dominant force in

24:16

predicting major league success of players,

24:19

foreign

24:20

and domestic.

24:23

In 2021, 95% of

24:25

MLB draft selections had

24:27

played in the perfect game showcase. It's

24:31

like buying a whole reel of lottery tickets.

24:34

The chances against you are still huge. But

24:37

you've got a better chance the more money you spend.

24:41

There's an obvious problem with that, right?

24:45

So in 2019, I saw that it was about $650

24:47

for parents to pay and up to $3,500 for their child

24:54

to compete on travel team going to perfect

24:56

game events. And then some other

24:58

families may spend anywhere from $500 to $2,500 per year and sometimes

25:03

up to $4,000 per year for their kids

25:06

to play on travel leagues. And

25:08

think about it. I mean, these kids are playing

25:11

on these travel leagues from the age of nine

25:13

through they turn 18.

25:15

So these yearly

25:17

expensive over a course of nine

25:19

years, definitely adds

25:21

up.

25:22

It does add up to

25:25

tens of thousands a year. IMG

25:29

and perfect game have both

25:32

said they try to help young athletes who

25:34

can't afford the top price bracket experience.

25:38

But it's not just the perfect game or

25:40

other travel league costs. There's

25:43

fewer scholarships available for

25:45

aspiring collegiate baseball players than

25:48

for football or basketball. Even

25:51

playing in your local little league involves

25:53

buying equipment and somehow getting

25:55

the games. Then

25:58

there's private batting coaches. which

26:00

Marissa says can cost hundreds of dollars.

26:04

There's websites where you create profiles

26:07

to make yourself more visible to

26:08

scouts, and even those

26:10

require membership and subscription fees.

26:14

The costs of playing baseball, even

26:16

from a young age, have been

26:19

going up

26:20

and staying up. And

26:22

what if after all this,

26:24

you still don't get signed? Increasing

26:28

opportunities cost money. But

26:30

it also costs time. Two

26:33

resources that many Americans don't have to spare.

26:37

And in particular, Black Americans

26:39

are less likely to be able to participate.

26:43

The median Black household has 10% of

26:45

the net worth of a white one.

26:48

Black Americans earn 30%

26:50

less than their white counterparts.

26:54

So in a system that favors

26:56

those with disposable

26:57

income in the tens of thousands,

27:00

who will be more likely to succeed?

27:03

What it comes down to is where MLB decides

27:05

to invest their money. MLB

27:07

has been making over time clearly

27:10

large financial contributions to

27:13

players born outside the U.S. in

27:15

the Caribbean and Latin America, and

27:17

not so much investing in individuals

27:20

and youth who are low-income, Black, and,

27:23

you know, white players in the United States.

27:29

All that being said,

27:31

over the last few years, MLB

27:33

has funded showcase programs to help

27:35

Black kids break into baseball. There's

27:38

one called The Dream, where

27:41

ex-major leaguers like Jerry Manuel

27:43

coach kids for a free four-day series.

27:45

There's another called

27:48

RBI, which stands for

27:50

Reviving Baseball in Inner

27:51

Cities.

27:53

MLB told ABC it's spending millions of dollars

27:55

trying to bring back the

27:59

new Black American players

28:02

into the sport.

28:04

Many of their talent development schemes

28:06

are low cost or free.

28:10

And there appears to be tentative signs of

28:12

improvement. Almost a fifth

28:14

of the top draft picks in 2023

28:17

were American-born Black players, many

28:20

of whom were graduates of these MLB-funded

28:23

programs. It

28:27

makes sense that MLB would want to

28:29

shake things up.

28:31

Generationally, we've seen

28:33

a shift

28:34

in who's watching the sport. Baseball

28:38

has been replaced by football as the

28:40

most watched sport in America.

28:43

MLB needs fresh eyes and young

28:45

fans to have a future. And

28:49

in an increasingly diverse country, your

28:51

sport should reflect its audience, right?

28:56

And whatever changes MLB have been

28:58

making, there haven't been enough

29:01

so far.

29:03

But maybe this is something else. Maybe

29:06

this

29:06

is MLB reaping what it sold all

29:09

those decades ago and keeping Black

29:11

players out of the game. Because

29:14

the color line that kept

29:15

the majors white was crossed.

29:19

But it was never erased.

29:31

In 2016, there

29:33

was a cultural moment that forced a collision

29:35

of two worlds, American

29:38

sports and social justice.

29:41

It happened in the NFL when

29:43

Colin Kaepernick took a knee

29:45

during the national anthem to protest

29:47

racism and oppression. It

29:50

was controversial, but soon

29:54

he wasn't alone.

29:55

On the Seattle sideline, it

29:57

wasn't just players, but coaches, employees.

30:00

Even fans following suit. Hopefully

30:02

it's going to use our country.

30:04

Back in MLB,

30:05

a Baltimore Orioles player,

30:07

Adam Jones, looked at baseball

30:10

and couldn't see a single act of solidarity

30:13

in the sport.

30:14

It told him, a

30:16

black American, that baseball

30:18

didn't care about alienating its black players.

30:22

He felt expendable, disposable.

30:26

In an interview that year, he told a journalist,

30:29

baseball is a white man sport. Baseball's

30:32

root is incredibly racist. So

30:36

it's very difficult to shake something

30:38

out of a system. Shakia

30:40

Taylor, a sports and culture editor

30:43

at the Chicago Tribune. So I

30:45

agree with Adam Jones completely. Even

30:47

if you look at the fan base, you

30:49

know, the average baseball fan once upon

30:51

a time was a 55-year-old white male. So

30:56

if everyone running it is a white

30:59

guy and everyone watching it is a white guy, I

31:02

mean, how can he be wrong?

31:04

Shakia says there's been a kind of atmosphere

31:07

in baseball that shaped the game today.

31:10

In previous decades, this has been seen

31:13

by some fans as traditional.

31:15

She sees it as a way of maintaining

31:18

a certain status quo.

31:21

People within baseball get upset

31:23

about home run celebrations and

31:25

players wearing jewelry and backwards

31:28

caps. And they take a

31:30

lot of the joy out of the sport with

31:32

the rules. There is

31:34

an unwritten rule where if a

31:37

batter hits a home run and

31:39

celebrates it a little too

31:42

long, it's not that

31:44

he is then hit with the ball

31:46

on his next plate appearance,

31:49

which is absurd. It is absolutely

31:52

absurd. But things like that keep

31:54

African-American kids out of the sport. Culturally,

31:58

I'd say, you know, We like

32:00

to celebrate, we like to have fun. And if you

32:03

take those things

32:03

out of the game, you're gonna lose interest.

32:07

The exuberant showmanship that

32:10

typified the Negro Leagues, Shakia

32:13

says is not welcoming MLB.

32:16

And that atmosphere is

32:18

still felt today. In 2021,

32:22

an MLB announcer joked about

32:24

the clothing of then Mets pitcher

32:26

Marcus Shromi. What clothing

32:29

did he choose to joke about? His

32:31

do-rag. It's

32:34

another form of the gentleman's agreement.

32:37

Unwritten rules about what kind

32:40

of player you can be in the majors.

32:44

And historically,

32:45

that has even affected which position

32:48

black players are assigned.

32:50

I think across sport, regardless of

32:52

the league, there's always been a perception

32:54

generally that it's rooted

32:56

in racism, that African-Americans

32:58

are not as smart as everyone

33:01

else.

33:01

And it's incredibly pervasive

33:04

in positions that people consider to be

33:06

like thinking man's position. In

33:08

football, that will be the quarterback. In

33:10

baseball, that's the pitcher. And

33:13

sometimes the catcher as well.

33:16

This doesn't just apply to players either.

33:18

This kind of thinking has

33:20

an effect at the managerial level too.

33:23

It's a tough question for you. You're still in baseball.

33:25

Why is it that there are no black managers,

33:28

no black general managers, no black owners?

33:31

Well, there's a couple, there have been some black managers,

33:34

but I really can't

33:36

answer that question directly. The only thing

33:38

I can say is that you have

33:40

to pay your dues when you become

33:43

a manager. Generally, you have

33:45

to go to a minor. This is Al Campanis.

33:48

He's white. He's an

33:50

ex-Dodgers second baseman. And

33:53

during this 1987 interview with ABC's Nightline, he

33:57

was their general manager.

33:59

also a close friend of Jackie

34:01

Robinson. You know that that's a lot of baloney.

34:03

I mean, there are a lot of black players,

34:06

there are a lot of great black baseball

34:08

men who would dearly love

34:10

to be in managerial positions. And

34:12

I guess what I'm really asking is to, you

34:14

know, peel it away a little bit. Just

34:16

tell me, why do you think it is? Is there still

34:19

that much prejudice in baseball today? No,

34:21

I don't believe it's prejudice. I truly

34:23

believe that they may not have

34:26

some of the necessities

34:28

to be, let's say,

34:31

a field manager or perhaps

34:33

a general manager. You

34:35

really believe that? Well, I

34:38

don't say that they're all of them,

34:40

but they certainly are short. How

34:43

many quarterbacks do you have? How many pitchers

34:46

do you have that are black? It's safe to be

34:48

black. Yeah, but I mean, you know, I gotta tell you, that sounds like

34:50

the same kind of garbage we were hearing 40 years ago. As

34:52

he stumbled to explain himself, Campana

34:55

has dug himself deeper.

34:58

He said,

34:59

why are black men,

35:00

black people, not good

35:02

swimmers? Because

35:05

they don't have the buoyancy. Perhaps,

35:09

replies the host,

35:10

it's because of the lack of access

35:13

to country clubs and pools instead.

35:17

36 years have passed since

35:19

Campana said that black players

35:21

lack the necessities

35:24

to become managers,

35:25

the natural buoyancy.

35:29

Today, there's only two black managers

35:32

out of 30

35:33

in the 2023 season.

35:36

A study by

35:37

Arizona State University's Global

35:39

Sport Institute

35:41

showed that between 1995 and 2021, black

35:46

MLB managers were still held

35:48

to different standards than white

35:50

ones. White managers,

35:53

on average,

35:55

had less coaching experience when they

35:57

were hired. Black managers

35:59

were... dismissed more quickly from their positions

36:02

and were more likely to have been fired.

36:05

Campanus' remarks became

36:08

his legacy that remains

36:10

long after his death.

36:12

Because hearing an executive say out loud

36:15

something that black athletes still

36:17

felt in the air decades after Jackie Robinson,

36:20

it touched the nerve.

36:23

So in all that time since integration,

36:26

how much progress has America

36:28

really made?

36:30

This is the question that many American institutions

36:32

had to try to answer in 2020 after

36:35

the killing of George Floyd,

36:37

whether they wanted to or not.

36:40

And baseball was no

36:43

exception. Nine

36:45

days after Floyd's death, MLB

36:48

released a statement

36:49

like everyone else.

36:51

It had phrases like zero

36:53

tolerance

36:54

and committed to change. To

36:58

be honest, after

36:59

George Floyd, I wasn't even thinking about sports

37:01

at first.

37:04

Witnessing Floyd's murder on camera made

37:06

me think about the question I always ask Grandma Nettie.

37:10

What did Grandpa Turkey

37:11

think about racism? She

37:14

would always say, he just said, that's just the way things were.

37:17

It took

37:19

me a while to realize the layers that statement contained. He

37:23

wasn't just throwing in a towel and saying, that's just life, there's nothing

37:26

we can do about it. He

37:29

was really saying that he knew what to expect and that he had

37:32

to look inward in order to survive.

37:37

One of the most unsettling things

37:39

about being black in America is that

37:42

here in the present, we

37:44

are still experiencing the hatred of the past.

37:46

It's just modernized.

37:50

Like Adam Jones, Grandpa Turkey

37:51

knew to what extent baseball was a white man's sport,

37:56

just like he knew America was a white man's country.

38:05

When MLB released its statement after

38:07

George Floyd's murder, it

38:10

felt hollow to me. So

38:12

when a piece of unexpected news was announced

38:15

in December of 2020, I was shocked.

38:19

A big announcement from Major League Baseball

38:21

today, it has reclassified the

38:23

Negro Leagues as a Major League.

38:26

On December 16, MLB

38:28

announced

38:29

that it would elevate Negro

38:31

League stats to the level of Major League

38:34

stats in the official record book.

38:37

A hundred years after the Negro Leagues were first

38:39

founded,

38:41

MLB vowed that the stats that

38:43

had been gathered and restored

38:44

by researchers would be incorporated,

38:47

integrated. Tell

38:48

me how

38:50

it felt to have the stats recognized.

38:54

Well, they're not.

38:58

This is Shawn Gibson, Josh Gibson's

39:00

great-grandson. We're both

39:02

members of the Negro League Family Alliance,

39:05

a group formed of descendants of Negro League

39:07

players. Like me,

39:10

he saw the MLB announcement and his jaw

39:12

dropped. We had no idea

39:14

MLB was considering this move, and

39:16

we thought that finally, after all

39:19

this time,

39:20

progress would be made.

39:22

But then,

39:24

crickets.

39:25

You can't make an announcement without

39:27

going through with the announcement. And that's what,

39:29

as family members, I feel like we're

39:32

kind of in limbo with what's going

39:34

on because the announcement

39:36

was so huge. And

39:39

the announcement came at a time where

39:42

African Americans was upset because it came during

39:45

the George Floyd killing

39:47

that same year.

39:49

And, you know,

39:51

I had several reporters ask me, did

39:54

I think MLB did this as a PR

39:57

move? And I

39:59

said, well, I can't. speak on behalf of Major League Baseball,

40:02

you have to ask them that question, but I hope

40:04

not.

40:06

The Family Alliance was not included in

40:08

the decision to recognize the stats,

40:11

and for some, the details of

40:13

the announcement were concerning. MLB

40:17

vowed to take some of the stats,

40:19

but not all.

40:22

Play recorded within the leagues between 1920 and 1948 would

40:24

be counted,

40:27

but no barnstorming records would be included.

40:31

Once again, they drew a line in

40:33

the sand.

40:34

Some stats are worthy,

40:36

and others are not.

40:38

I'll say this, when they made the announcement,

40:41

I was excited. My phone was ringing off the

40:43

hook because everybody thought now that Josh

40:45

Gibson would be the home run king. Josh

40:48

had over 800 home runs, but

40:50

most of his home runs were doing barnstorming

40:53

and

40:54

playing overseas.

40:56

He was going to have like 327 in the Negro League, so

40:59

he's not the home run king.

41:02

Some say these barnstorming and overseas

41:05

games are helpful data points because

41:07

they still represent an athlete's ability

41:09

on the field.

41:11

Some say since they're not official,

41:13

they

41:14

can't be held as equal to Major

41:16

Leaguers.

41:19

Earlier in the series, you heard Kevin Johnson

41:21

of SeamHeads explain how difficult

41:23

it's been for stats collectors to gather

41:25

and quantify Negro Leagues data.

41:28

Fox scores for the Negro Leagues are not as easy

41:31

to find or interpret as the records

41:33

of the Major Leagues,

41:35

but that's no reason not to count

41:38

what we have either.

41:40

It does mean that whatever stats MLB

41:43

does include,

41:43

they'll always be

41:45

controversial.

41:47

When they officially put the stats

41:49

into Major Leaguers, there will be not just

41:51

Josh, there will be several players

41:54

from the Negro League that will be in the top 10,

41:56

top 5 categories and maybe some of one.

41:59

Even by conservative estimates,

42:03

the top 10 baseball greats are rewritten.

42:07

Can baseball fans handle their

42:09

idols being replaced overnight? If

42:12

Turkey's Stearns is suddenly a better player

42:14

than Joe DiMaggio,

42:16

are people ready to hear it?

42:18

Who are you to tell us that we are now major leaguers?

42:21

You know, we

42:23

always consider our relatives as

42:25

major leaguers. But now

42:28

that they say we are major leaguers,

42:30

well then let's show

42:32

it. Let's show it. There are some players

42:35

still living and they should be compensated,

42:37

you know, with pensions. All the

42:39

other major leaguers are benefiting from playing

42:41

the majors, so I feel

42:44

like the families and the players who are

42:46

still living should also benefit from

42:48

that.

42:51

The stats are complicated,

42:53

but they're just one part of the puzzle. This

42:57

is about treating Negro League players like

42:59

they are full equals to major leaguers of the

43:01

past, present, and future. One

43:04

of the main things the Family Alliance is asking

43:07

MLB for directly

43:09

is a universal Negro Leagues Day

43:11

on May 2nd of every year.

43:14

That's the date of Rube Foster's first Negro

43:17

League game of the season

43:18

in 1920.

43:21

We want fans who know nothing

43:22

about the Monarchs or the Grays or

43:25

the Detroit Stars

43:27

to appreciate a history

43:28

they may never have heard before.

43:31

And not just the history of the teams,

43:34

but also of the surviving Negro League players.

43:38

Like Bill Greeson, who played for the

43:40

Black Barons and later became a Baptist

43:42

preacher in Alabama. Willie

43:46

Mays, who

43:47

is known for his major league record,

43:50

but not for his Negro League origins.

43:52

And Ron Teasley.

43:56

After integration, Ron

43:58

was almost selected to play on the team.

43:59

Dodgers with Jackie Robinson. But

44:02

Ron didn't make it to the majors.

44:05

He always thought that there was an unofficial

44:07

quota system in place. That

44:10

no matter how good you were, they

44:12

weren't willing to have too many black

44:15

players on their team.

44:18

Ron wasn't eligible for a major league pension,

44:21

but now the MLB has told the world that

44:23

they consider Negro leagues as major leagues. Maybe

44:27

now he can get what so many other players have taken

44:29

as a given. Recognition,

44:32

appreciation, and quickly,

44:35

Ron's 96 years old. It's

44:38

time to give the man his flowers.

44:41

We're past the centennial of

44:43

the league's founding, and we're

44:45

looking at it with new eyes. When we

44:47

look back in a hundred years time,

44:50

what do you think we'll see? Man,

44:54

man, I hope my descendants are still celebrating

44:57

Josh Gibson. That's first day. They

45:00

will be. Right. You

45:02

know, it's funny you said that because

45:05

when a hundred years came up in 2020, we,

45:07

I couldn't believe it. Here we are celebrating

45:11

something that happened a hundred

45:13

years ago. And you

45:15

know, Vanessa Oxley says that it's a shame

45:17

that here we are

45:20

celebrating a hundred years and

45:23

your grandfather, my great grandfather

45:25

is probably looking down and saying, I can't

45:28

believe that they're going through this, still going through some of

45:30

the same things that we went

45:32

through a hundred years ago. So

45:34

that is one of the things that I used to always talk

45:37

about is how not too much

45:39

has changed.

45:43

In the nearly three years since the announcement,

45:46

the silence from MLB

45:48

has felt deafening. So

45:51

earlier this year, when the family alliance

45:54

was invited to a meeting with MLB,

45:57

we had some questions.

45:59

Two months.

45:59

before the meeting,

46:01

the alliance had announced the group's initiatives

46:04

at a press conference,

46:06

and this was an initial discussion

46:08

to communicate them to MLB.

46:11

In that meeting,

46:12

someone asked the MLB rep,

46:15

can you provide us an update about when the Negro

46:17

League's stats will be included in the MLB records?

46:19

The MLB

46:22

rep looked around the table. Haven't

46:24

we already done that, he said? When

46:29

ABC asked MLB about this exchange,

46:32

they said the rep was referring to the process

46:36

created to complete an agreement for

46:38

use of the Negro League's stats. We

46:42

had heard about this agreement, but

46:45

not directly from MLB initially. Our

46:49

sources told us about a possible agreement

46:51

with data researchers, so

46:53

we asked MLB about it. They

46:56

told ABC that the reason we've been waiting

46:58

so long is the result of

47:00

negotiations between MLB and

47:03

the data researchers. MLB

47:06

said they spent time coming to an agreement

47:09

that allows them to use the data on which

47:11

their decision to elevate the

47:13

stats was based.

47:17

They also wanted to build a partnership with the experts

47:19

who gathered it. They

47:21

told us that the evaluation of this data

47:23

is underway, but didn't give

47:25

us a timeline

47:27

or a target date for completion.

47:30

Our sources also told us that

47:32

some of them were asked to join a new committee

47:35

MLB was putting together to

47:37

review the stats. This

47:40

committee would be made up of Negro League experts

47:43

who have lived and breathed these stories

47:45

for many decades. When

47:48

we asked MLB about this committee, they

47:51

said that after their December 2020 announcement,

47:55

they wanted to handle the process with

47:58

thoroughness and thoughtfulness.

48:01

They confirmed that this committee does exist

48:03

and that it has met several times already.

48:08

As of the release of this podcast, there

48:11

has been no public announcement

48:13

acknowledging this committee of experts or

48:16

the process of working with the data researchers.

48:20

But it seems like 32 months

48:22

since Commissioner Robert Manfred said that

48:25

Negro Leagues are Major Leagues, MLB

48:27

is now sifting through the data. Now

48:32

I've still got some questions,

48:33

of course,

48:35

and I tried to get them

48:36

answered by the man who made that 2020 announcement

48:38

in the first place.

48:41

ABC asked MLB for an interview

48:43

with the commissioner in April and

48:45

then again in

48:46

September.

48:49

Our request was denied

48:51

both times.

48:53

So I'll ask a third time.

48:56

Commissioner Manfred,

48:58

the door is always open.

49:03

If it sounds like I'm not happy

49:05

about this progress, let

49:07

me explain.

49:09

It's not about MLB taking on this task.

49:13

That's a promising step in the right direction.

49:16

But the pace of this process is

49:18

being dictated by MLB. And

49:21

that feels familiar. When

49:24

the leagues integrated in 1947, the

49:27

decision wasn't made by Jackie. It

49:30

wasn't even made by Branch Rickey. It

49:33

was MLB's call at

49:35

a time they decided was right. These

49:39

stats of these Negro Leaguers exist because

49:41

they were determined to play, even

49:44

when the sport told them to quit. If

49:47

MLB absorbs the stats without acknowledging

49:49

their reason for existence, there's

49:52

a risk that they whitewashed that struggle.

49:55

It seems paradoxical, but

49:58

these stories may be lost.

50:00

by being brought to the surface.

50:03

But just like integration in 1947,

50:07

we have no choice but to play

50:08

by the rules

50:10

set by white baseball,

50:12

even though it could erase us.

50:16

It's

50:17

a lot.

50:19

I'm optimistic,

50:21

but I'm

50:22

watching MLB's next moves carefully,

50:26

and I'm hoping they will not repeat the mistakes

50:29

of the past. I'm not angry, but I'm disappointed,

50:31

and I'm fed up.

50:32

This is fed up in sign language. This is my mom, Joyce.

50:36

She taught deaf and hard of

50:38

hearing students for 36 years. That's

50:41

why she knows

50:42

how she feels in sign language, too. I

50:44

want

50:45

them to step up to the plate and do the right thing. So

50:47

you kept them

50:49

isolated and did not afford to be able

50:51

to do the right thing. I'm not angry, but

50:53

I'm disappointed, and I'm fed up. This

50:56

is fed up in sign language. She

50:59

has no attack. This is my start.

51:01

She colonizzare Pants started tonosticen to

51:05

put her attitude to life, but she

51:07

would

51:07

have spent all her time

51:10

to see if it was real enough like it. I'm

51:13

a Player.

51:17

You're vessels.

51:19

I'm mutual Spendlay.

51:22

I love you,

51:23

it's the state

51:25

made.

51:27

And in some respects,

51:29

I'm lucky, because my home

51:31

team,

51:32

the Tigers,

51:33

does. They

51:36

actually do something really

51:37

special, and that's Negro

51:39

League's weekend.

51:49

This is where we

51:51

started. With

51:53

my mom and aunt on the field at

51:55

Comerica Park on

51:57

Negro League's weekend. When

52:00

they were rehearsing, the

52:02

stadium was empty.

52:05

Now,

52:07

the stadium is full.

52:13

The Tigers are about to come onto the field

52:16

in Detroit Star's uniforms.

52:19

My nephew Jimmy has been invited to

52:20

throw out the first pitch,

52:23

and my whole family is gathered in the stands

52:25

to watch. And

52:27

even if people in the audience still don't fully

52:30

understand the history the Tigers

52:31

are honoring,

52:33

it means a lot to have grandpa's story

52:36

front and center. When

52:38

I'm singing the national anthem, I'm

52:41

elated and thrilled. I feel rejuvenated

52:45

or whatever. So whenever I perform,

52:48

whatever I'm singing, I put

52:50

my emotions and my heart into it, and it's

52:53

to the people to

52:54

pass on to them. And so

52:57

they'll say the daughters of Rob Stearns Brown and Joyce

52:59

Stearns Topham, daughters

53:00

of Norman Durtky Stearns. And so

53:02

that's a proud moment. So I'm singing

53:05

that to honor him and the Negro Leaguers. Ladies

53:07

and gentlemen, at this time we ask that you all please arise.

53:10

Gentlemen, please remove your caps. Active

53:12

military events. This is a proud moment for me,

53:14

too.

53:16

My wife and I stand in the crowd

53:17

on a warm summer night and

53:20

watch the whole stadium pay attention to

53:22

the daughters of a Negro Leaguers

53:25

legend. And Rosalind Stearns

53:27

Brown, daughters

53:28

of Negro Leaguers Group and National

53:30

Baseball Hall of Fame member, Norman

53:33

Durtky Stearns. Ladies

53:35

and gentlemen, our national

53:38

anthem.

53:42

And when I'm standing there,

53:44

I remember why I love this game.

53:48

It's because we are our national pastime.

53:52

It reflects us and

53:54

all our rules

53:56

and biases and

53:57

complications

53:59

and in the way that we live.

53:59

ways we try to be better.

54:02

In the past,

54:04

it has reflected our division.

54:06

Today, it

54:08

represents our progress,

54:10

however slow or

54:12

frustrating.

54:17

Maybe that's what makes it our national

54:19

sport. It's this

54:21

mirror that has shown us, through

54:23

our history, who

54:25

we are in that moment. And

54:28

maybe one day, we'll look

54:30

at our reflection and

54:33

we'll all like what we see.

54:48

Reclaim,

54:53

The Forgotten League, is an original

54:55

production of ABC Audio,

54:57

hosted by me, Vanessa Ivy

54:59

Rose. This episode

55:02

was written by Madeline Wood. The

55:04

series was produced by Madeline Wood, Cameron

55:07

Chertavian, Eru Ekpanobi, Camille

55:09

Peterson, and Amira Williams.

55:12

Our senior producers on this project were

55:14

Susie Liu and Lakia Brown. Music

55:17

and scoring by Evan Viola. A

55:20

big shout out to our ABC Audio team,

55:23

Liz Alessi, Josh Cohen,

55:26

Ariel Chester, Sasha Aslanian,

55:29

Marwa Mawa, Audrey Bostek,

55:32

and Erin Fairer. Special thanks

55:34

to Trish Donovan, Rick Klein,

55:37

Eric Fial, Anthony Fanik,

55:39

Mara Bush, and of course, my mom,

55:42

Joyce Stearns-Thompson, and my aunt,

55:45

Brosman Stearns-Brown. Laura

55:47

Mayer is our executive producer.

55:54

Thank you.