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That's t-r-y-l-i-f-e-m-d.com.

1:26

And Lacey G. We'll

2:00

talk about what they are. What do you think? They

2:02

are so fun and so

2:05

unapologetic and so well spoken.

2:08

I'm so excited to talk to them. I'm

2:11

a little nervous because they're a really big podcast and

2:13

they have a lot of followers on social media too.

2:16

So it's kind of like we're talking to

2:18

celebrity gossip royalties. Are we gonna come off as

2:20

crazy? I mean, I

2:22

have taken a dive into their social

2:24

media. They're a fan of Taylor Swift

2:26

too. Okay, I was gonna say. So they might join us in

2:28

the crazy level. Yeah, I think this is

2:30

gonna be more a friend reuniting than it

2:32

is gonna be them thinking that we're crazy.

2:35

I think we're all crazy here. Go down

2:37

the rabbit hole together, shall we? Oh,

2:40

excellent, excellent. Well, let's talk

2:42

to Lauren and Chan from Pop Apologist. Lauren and

2:44

Chan, good to see you. Hello.

2:47

Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited

2:49

to be here. Well, we've been

2:51

a fan of you, both of y'all for a

2:53

long time too. So you guys just live in

2:55

the world of celebrity gossip. Isn't it a fun

2:58

world to live in? It's a very fun

3:00

world. It's a crazy world, especially this week.

3:03

Oh my God, yeah. Other than

3:05

we'll talk a lot about Taylor Swift, but

3:07

who are some of your favorite celebrities to

3:09

follow, to cover, maybe any shows

3:11

that you guys are obsessed with? Anything like

3:13

that? I

3:15

mean, I think a favorite of Lauren

3:17

and I is Gwyneth Peltrow. We love

3:19

deep diving the Instagram captions that her

3:21

husband, Brad Faltruck, writes for her. She's

3:24

the first one to go to the IG captions

3:27

that are beautiful. She's a favorite.

3:29

Who else? I mean, I love

3:31

iconic stars that have been A-listers before

3:33

Instagram. So I love that Angela Jolie,

3:35

I love Brad Pitt. I

3:38

just love, I love stars that I read about

3:40

when I was a teenager and like that were

3:42

covering the magazines. So I can be a little

3:44

old school with my coverage. It takes

3:46

me a little, it takes me a little

3:48

longer to get on board with like the

3:50

Gen Z stars to really following Sydney Sweeney

3:53

closely. But

3:55

no, it's a tumultuous world, I will say, even

3:58

though we cover a lot of pop culture. we

4:01

talk about Taylor Swift all the

4:03

time to a point where our listeners are like, okay,

4:05

we got it. You love Taylor Swift. I

4:08

actually envy you guys because you're able to talk

4:10

about her all the time and we want to.

4:14

Sometimes we end up just doing that

4:16

exactly. But yeah, we have to check

4:18

ourselves. Other people exist in the

4:20

world besides Taylor Swift, right? So

4:24

this is good. We're both on the same team, right? We're

4:26

both on the Swifty side. So let

4:29

me ask the pop apologist over here.

4:32

Do your opinions change about

4:34

some of the exes? Like Jake

4:37

Gyllenhaal is now in Roadhouse. Do

4:39

you talk about him unbiased or

4:41

can you not help but take

4:44

your Swifty heart and hate him just a

4:46

little bit? I'm sorry. Our podcast is nothing

4:48

but bias. There is no

4:50

love for Jake Gyllenhaal. He's

4:54

definitely dead to us and we do

4:56

not like him whatsoever. So

4:59

no, we are Taylor's

5:01

defense attorneys in all things life and love.

5:03

And that comes to any of her exes

5:06

in the news. We come with that filter

5:08

in focus. That's really refreshing because

5:10

obviously we have a Taylor Swift podcast. So

5:12

I feel like half the time I have

5:14

to preface it by being like, obviously I'm biased.

5:16

What I'm about to say. Like, yeah,

5:18

I'm going to defend Taylor Swift until the day I die. Like

5:20

for sure. For sure. For sure. So it's really cool to hear

5:22

that you guys are the same even

5:25

though your podcast isn't just centered around Taylor Swift.

5:27

But when you're covering pop culture, it's

5:29

impossible to not somehow make things about

5:31

Taylor Swift. Especially

5:33

in this past year, you know, with

5:35

like the first four and just like

5:38

everything with her re-recordings. And it's just

5:40

so intertwined and convoluted. And it

5:42

happens a lot too, like just in regular

5:44

conversation. Like, oh my God, I'm

5:46

so tired of like talking about her. Like, but

5:48

you can't just not. Like she's just even in

5:50

the world of NFL and everything. Like it's

5:53

hard not to. Right. She's like

5:55

omnipresent. Yeah. Yeah. I

5:57

went to dinner the other night with my sister

6:00

and some. friends and we spent the entire dinner

6:02

talking about Taylor Swift and like from start to

6:04

finish at the end of the dinner we were

6:06

winking evermore and folklore going track by track. It

6:09

was truly like we had met for a meetup,

6:11

you know, but that's just what we naturally talked

6:13

about. I actually can't really relate to people who

6:15

don't want to just talk about Taylor Swift. Right.

6:18

I know. How unfun is it to not be

6:21

a fan right now? And then you do have

6:23

those people that just want to poke at you

6:25

and they're like, Oh, Taylor Swift's nothing. Let me

6:27

read you all these headlines about her. And I

6:29

would always have a rebuttal because it's obviously

6:31

not the fans who are writing those headlines.

6:33

You don't know what you're talking about to bring

6:36

it up to me. And if we want

6:38

to talk Taylor Swift, great, but

6:40

it's dangerous territory because I've been through the

6:42

long haul. I read lightly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

6:44

How far we want to get into this.

6:47

So what were y'all's first take

6:50

on the new album? You were

6:52

listening live. What did you

6:54

think initially of the Tortured Poets Department?

6:57

I'm going to let Lauren speak because Lauren's

6:59

journey was very different from mine. I actually

7:02

had food poisoning that in the middle of

7:04

the night, Friday night or early, you know,

7:06

early Friday morning. And so I didn't even

7:08

get to listen to the album until like

7:11

Friday afternoon, which felt crazy to me, you

7:13

know, given everything. But Lauren's journey

7:15

was much more fraught than mine was even.

7:17

I'm scared to speak to be totally honest.

7:20

I really represent the voice of Swifties in

7:22

the community who found this album

7:24

to be not to be crass, but a grower

7:26

and not a shower. And

7:29

at first at first listened for me,

7:31

some of these songs and the lyrics were

7:33

not my favorite. And I think contrasting them

7:35

with some of the lyrical sophistication

7:38

and evermore in folklore, I

7:40

was a little put off

7:42

to be totally a little, just got a

7:44

little I actually like actively disliked this album

7:46

at the beginning. And I yeah, I a

7:49

lot of the things I thought were correct

7:51

about my life and everything around me was

7:53

suddenly thrown into question. But

7:56

I, I did come around. And A lot

7:58

of people are saying this. They're like I

8:00

don't like it either at first but now

8:03

it's becoming after repeated lessons one a my

8:05

favorite albums have. Didn't have you had a

8:07

similar experience or was it just a ton

8:09

on a ten rounds. Again, you know, I

8:11

gotta say for me personally, it definitely wasn't

8:14

what I was expecting, So I don't know

8:16

if that clouded my judgment on it, because

8:18

at first I was like, okay, that was,

8:20

I was all right. I definitely liked the

8:22

second half better when she drove out more.

8:25

those songs I was like, oh, I can

8:27

relieve. Devour the songs a lot

8:29

quicker and important negotiating for me that

8:31

second hand and the more I've thought

8:33

about it. It's it.

8:36

seems to me. Unfortunately, Tailored didn't

8:38

personally tell me this. It

8:41

seems that. You. Know it's

8:43

clear that she's not trying to write

8:46

the Radio Bop. Right? She

8:48

wasn't set out to write sacred off

8:50

part to she's done that. We know

8:52

she can do that. so she's stretching

8:54

her so she's leaning really heavily into

8:56

the the poetry side of it more.

8:58

and so we get some. Chunky.

9:00

Lyrics: some line so like does that work,

9:02

What is that? Is that riding with another

9:04

line and like it's kind of clunky and

9:06

chunky at times, but that's how poetry is

9:08

a lot of times. And I've

9:10

heard the criticism from some people

9:13

that allow the songs sound the

9:15

same thought that also. but. When.

9:17

I look at it from okay we're

9:20

leaning into the poetry side. I'd I

9:22

get the feeling that hey see wrote.

9:24

The. Lyrics and then she wanted to create

9:27

the music that just kind of helped

9:29

carry that through. Food. And I don't

9:31

think she was. I don't think she was focusing

9:33

on making one hundred percent the most perfect snacks

9:35

and have ever been created. Yes, so it is

9:37

a little clunky, is chunky, and it's almost like

9:40

a word vomit because she's gone through. To

9:42

very high profile public relationships that

9:44

of in did one a long

9:47

term one a short term. And.

9:49

There's just a lot of emotions there. And sisters,

9:52

Perjuring. Herself getting these emotions out there. So

9:54

yeah. First I was kinda like he was like

9:56

okay, Know. my favorite but i

9:58

like it but then It is a grower

10:00

on me and now I can't

10:03

stop listening to it. No

10:05

longer people-pleasing She is hanging out what

10:07

you want. She's saying what she wants

10:09

and do some of the songs sound

10:11

similar to other songs Yes, but that's

10:13

because I can do it with a

10:15

broken heart She's playing what she's hearing

10:17

at the end of a show which

10:19

is mastermind which is then hounding down

10:21

and that's why it sounds Similar there

10:23

is a rhyme and a reason when

10:25

it comes to Taylor Swift It's not

10:27

just lazy music in the

10:30

background. No, that's intentional and I

10:32

love that kind of Sematic

10:35

feel and that very dramatic

10:37

of this music the build-up

10:39

the crescendos I I

10:41

love it through first listen I was a

10:44

little taken aback at first and I did

10:46

like the second half better because that's what

10:48

I was expecting the first time And

10:51

then on my way home Listening to the first

10:53

half. I'm like, I think I just wasn't in

10:55

the correct mindset The first time

10:57

because it is brilliant writing

11:00

and I love it Yeah well I

11:02

think a lot with Taylor Swift too is and even when we

11:04

were listening to it live the first time like I knew That

11:07

it would hit me different once I read the lyrics So

11:09

when you're trying to just like listen and take it all

11:11

in like all at once It's kind of it's

11:13

hard to form an immediate opinion because I

11:16

think it makes such a difference when you read it So

11:18

we had our listening part of we listened to the whole

11:20

thing when it came out a few days later I was

11:22

on a flight actually I was flying back from New York

11:24

New York to Dallas which is a four-hour flight And

11:27

so I downloaded the lyrics on my phone and

11:29

I spent the whole flight listening to it while

11:31

simultaneously reading the lyrics and it

11:33

made such a difference because when you

11:35

actually like read it as a poetry

11:38

and also just kind of you know where

11:40

she puts quotation marks and Things like

11:42

in it like you see it as a story because sometimes it

11:44

doesn't flow like the way that the sentence is written And

11:47

I think that I think that makes a big difference and

11:49

I also feel like with a lot of Taylor Swift music

11:52

It is gonna take time for it to kind of

11:54

adapt to what it is that you need at the

11:56

time. I Felt that way with Evermore. But I Mean

11:58

it can't When it came. Now of course, are

12:00

they gonna die? This is a masterpiece. It's wonderful,

12:03

but it wasn't until a year later. All the

12:05

way I relate to happiness or I really or

12:07

whatever song it is that effect. At

12:09

the time that he gave it to me I wasn't ready

12:11

for it. but as earlier when I went I had a

12:13

whole year with it. I was like wait, this is one

12:16

of the best songs you've ever written. Anything. A lot of

12:18

her music is that way and people are just so. Quick.

12:21

To judge without taking the time to

12:23

actually. Take it and especially

12:25

an anthology of thirty tracks in

12:27

one way or why I'm so

12:30

impressed with your podcast. The pop

12:32

apologists dollar already getting into the

12:34

songs and real racing, breaking them

12:36

down and saying what they mean.

12:39

We. Are still Taken M N

12:41

N N Don't know. There's so

12:43

many different theories out there. What

12:45

are some your favorite theories involving

12:48

this album? I.

12:50

Mean, I think you know and I

12:52

don't even have you called us. As

12:54

simple as a theory event that I think

12:57

that this is in, this is a

12:59

Matty Healy situation said unpacking album versus

13:01

a gel all and closer album which

13:03

is what I anticipated it would be

13:05

that it would be. And it wasn't that.

13:07

I'm also to adhere point earlier to

13:09

all of your points earlier like. To.

13:11

Me this album is not a conversion to

13:14

Taylor Says Album and on and she released

13:16

as you know to convert new people to

13:18

Taylor Swift. This looks like she really says

13:20

because it was cathartic for her in a

13:22

my personal opinion and I atlas and a

13:24

barrage of text to Scott and Lauren saying

13:26

this yesterday like my thesis of us and

13:28

eight an hour or I'm but days later

13:30

think you know if you're not converted to

13:32

Taylor Swift this might be kind of hopeless.

13:35

In. Illnesses like own personal bias and the problem

13:37

is not for new as I don't think

13:39

it's for new fans are new people want

13:41

to discover her on and I think like

13:43

this is an alibi thing for true fans

13:46

to sit with unpack. Read the lyrics you

13:48

know to really like digest fully because there's

13:50

so much here I'm you know it's not

13:52

like a folklore and not center ice like

13:54

it was instantly appealing to so many new

13:56

people. Yeah, that's so true. And

13:59

it's also like to. your point when

14:01

you know the history of like

14:03

Mattie Healy and the decade-long like

14:06

things that go into it and you understand

14:08

it quicker and like you know what I

14:10

mean? Like I 100% agree with it. Yeah you

14:13

were saying that this was kind of an album for

14:15

her not her fans. You know a lot of her

14:17

songs we've kind of talked about this off the air

14:19

before. A lot of her songs she takes something personal

14:22

and she reworks it and presents it

14:24

in a way that's relatable to everybody.

14:26

More universal. More universal. This one it's

14:28

like so specific not many people are

14:30

going to be relating to all the

14:32

different lines in the songs because they

14:34

are specific so I think you're right

14:36

she's not writing this for universal appeal

14:38

she's writing it for herself. I

14:40

think she had said at one

14:43

point that one of the biggest overarching

14:45

themes to the album as a whole

14:47

is basically about like her

14:50

level of fame and how like

14:52

the media and people basically treat

14:54

creatives and writers like as

14:56

like almost like a spectator sport. Like you see

14:58

someone that's creative you want them to be tortured

15:00

you want them to create art but then when

15:02

they do all you do is criticize it and

15:04

judge it. So it's like she has so much

15:06

about that too and like the truth is that we're never

15:09

gonna understand that level of fame. Like we're never gonna know

15:11

what it's like Taylor Swift is the most

15:13

criticized person I think like on the planet.

15:15

She cannot take a breath without every publication

15:17

writing a think-piece about it and

15:20

no one will ever understand what that's like and

15:22

I think in this album she kind of dives

15:24

into that and so it's it's almost like especially

15:27

with the second half I feel like

15:29

it's a look into the mind of

15:31

the world's most popular person and I

15:33

think that's crazy. It's a prophecy. Oh

15:35

my goodness that was such a heartbreaking

15:37

song. The prophecy was... Yeah

15:39

that she would trade in all her fame

15:42

just to have somebody who wants to have

15:44

her own. Yeah. With her company I mean

15:47

I feel like I'm curious about what you guys think

15:49

about this but I think I was thinking about it

15:52

on the subway this morning like focal and evermore for

15:54

me. They were are

15:56

so highly wrought

15:58

and they're so... finally

16:00

and definitely created, right? And I

16:02

feel like there's somewhat of an

16:04

emotional remove across those albums

16:06

because they seem like these more higher

16:09

art creations, in my opinion. Like she

16:11

was writing stories about characters and there

16:13

was just like a little bit of

16:15

a removal, I would say emotionally. So

16:18

it took me a little bit more time to like

16:20

really sink into those songs and have them impact me.

16:23

With this album, I feel like her

16:25

emotions are right on the surface. And

16:28

this album is like much more

16:30

sad. It's a

16:32

much more devastating. It's just

16:34

so much more emotionally resonant to

16:36

me. And in so

16:39

much like honestly more engaging

16:42

to listen to once you kind

16:44

of accept the new song, the

16:46

new sounds, the new way she's going, once

16:48

you kind of get on board, I

16:51

found myself fully swept away. That's

16:54

good, Amy. She is our

16:57

Folklore and Evermore enthusiast. How

16:59

do you compare this album

17:01

to Folklore and Evermore? I

17:05

mean, I think that there are a lot of

17:07

the sounds. I hear Invisible String in

17:09

one song and I hear, so

17:11

I feel like there's a lot of inspiration

17:14

that she pulled from those albums, but I

17:16

mean, it's obviously different. Because

17:18

I also wonder how much

17:21

Folklore and Evermore are fiction.

17:24

It's supposed to be fictional albums,

17:26

but then how much reality is

17:29

in there and how much is

17:31

in Tortured Poets Department too. Because

17:33

I'm seeing theories about the whole

17:35

album is about Sylvia Platt, which

17:38

is something that I haven't looked

17:40

enough into yet, but she's some

17:43

literary goddess who was tortured and I

17:45

believe put her head in the oven

17:47

out of despair. Beljar. Yeah.

17:51

So there's a lot that you have

17:53

to wonder how much is fact and

17:55

how much is fiction whenever she's writing.

17:57

Yeah, well, because she makes a lot of references. lot

18:00

of references. There's a lot of history and

18:02

a lot of literature that goes into it, which I think is part

18:04

of what... That's why we

18:06

need time with it, to just kind of

18:08

fully understand like, okay, wait, why was she

18:10

thinking about Cassandra? Does that relate

18:12

back to Greek mythology and like Clara

18:14

Bow and everything? There's so many layers.

18:17

And so it kind of... When

18:19

people are so quick to

18:22

judge and hate it without understanding it, I'm almost

18:24

like, okay, but have you listened to it? For

18:28

sure. I think one of my hot

18:30

takes is that I don't think this

18:32

is like a breakup album. I think

18:35

Mattie Healy and Jo were

18:39

sensational like muses for her, but I think it's

18:41

more so like she's telling us what happened and

18:43

how it affected her. And she's

18:45

taking kind of all of it and talking

18:47

about her mental state, her depression, her sadness,

18:49

her anxieties and all of that because of

18:51

what happened. Like the other

18:53

day somebody called it like a diss album and

18:55

I was like, it's not a diss album, though.

18:58

Like she left

19:01

Jo and she thought

19:03

Mattie was her soulmate and they didn't work out

19:05

and that's really devastating. But I wouldn't

19:08

say it's like a diss album. I disagree

19:10

because I think there

19:12

is a lot of really specific callouts

19:14

she makes to Mattie. I don't think

19:16

it's a diss album for Jo

19:18

at all. I think it is a diss album

19:21

for Mattie or at least there are diss songs on

19:23

this. So maybe the whole thing isn't

19:25

a diss album. I mean, it's 31 songs and

19:27

a lot of them are just about her sad

19:30

mental state. But I do think that she

19:32

definitely has some scathing lyrics about

19:34

Mattie's drug addiction, who

19:37

he was to her, how he treated her.

19:39

So I don't know. I don't get

19:41

any measure of a man. Yeah. That

19:43

song alone. But yeah, I hear you. It's maybe

19:46

not a full diss album, but there's a lot

19:48

of diss songs. And there's diss songs for the

19:50

fans. Kim

19:53

Kardashian. So I think she's coming for people on

19:55

this album. I would say that's safe to say.

19:58

Are there any songs that you you two

20:00

are listening to on repeat more than others.

20:02

Any songs that you're constantly attracted to that

20:04

you're like, oh, this is my song. It's

20:07

so funny. I hated the song at the beginning.

20:09

I hated Down Bad because I just couldn't get

20:11

past the lyric. I'm Down Bad, or what is

20:13

it? Down Bad Crying at the Gym. Down Bad

20:15

Crying at the Gym. Fuck it

20:17

if I can't have him. I was just

20:19

like, no, this can't be like capital P

20:21

poetry. But then once I got past it,

20:25

I find this song to be like

20:27

so devastating and arresting. When she says

20:29

the lyric, where she says that she

20:32

can't utter the word over. Like

20:34

when she says, I loved your, it's the outro.

20:38

And it's like, I loved your hostile

20:40

takeovers, your indecent exposures growing closer and

20:42

closer. I messed it up, but

20:44

that's the gist. And then she says, how dare you

20:46

say that it's, and she can't figure herself to say

20:48

over. I'm just like, I was

20:51

crying outside YSL the other day. I'm just

20:53

like. I'm like. I'm like. Did you have a

20:55

bag full of items though? Yeah,

20:57

no, and that was another reason I

21:00

was crying. I was like, what is that? I'm

21:02

very paid expensive. Do you say it is, yeah, $10,000.

21:05

Anyway, I'm loving that

21:07

song. I was like

21:09

pop culture enthusiasts and

21:11

Maddie Healy. Do you think eventually,

21:14

I mean, he's gonna tell his side of the story. Like, is that

21:16

something that you like, that you're kind of

21:18

looking forward to, or you want to hear, like you can't

21:20

help but be curious, but like, I

21:22

don't know how do you feel about like, I guess the

21:24

rebuttal? Cause we haven't really gotten that before.

21:27

Do you want us to talk about Aunt Debbie? Oh,

21:30

yes, let's frame Aunt Debbie. I don't know

21:32

if you guys saw this, but Aunt

21:34

Debbie, I don't know if you're familiar, she is a Matt

21:36

Healy's aunt, and she spoke

21:38

out on his behalf about the relationship. What

21:41

did she say? She gave an interview to

21:43

Daily Mail, went up a couple of days

21:45

ago, full quotes, like fully

21:47

gave an interview on all of this. And she

21:49

said, you know, we know what really went down

21:51

between the two of them. What else? Like,

21:54

she was just basically like, it's, you know, she

21:56

said, Nadi is not surprised at anything

21:58

at this point. comes as no

22:00

shock to him. We know more went on here

22:02

and she's letting on like we know the full

22:04

story. Like

22:07

a Meghan Markle family. Yes. I

22:09

feel like the only difference is I feel

22:11

like Meghan Markle like excommunicated her father for

22:13

talking to the tabloids and I always feel

22:15

like Maddie Healy is so messy that he's

22:17

like, I'm gonna have to read this. I

22:19

said yes, but I

22:25

was getting confused. I saw that his

22:27

mom is on some wine talk show

22:30

or something. Oh, I didn't know that.

22:32

Yeah. And she hasn't been on since

22:34

the release of the album, but it's

22:36

like the talk or whatever. But this

22:39

is with wine and crumpets at the

22:41

same time or something. And

22:43

she hasn't been on yet to have her rebuttal.

22:45

And even Maddie said something. I think it was

22:47

yesterday. He was stopped and they said, he

22:50

said that he hadn't really listened to it, but

22:52

he sure it's good, which is a nice thing

22:54

to say. I mean, the best way to say

22:56

it. Yeah. He has to know.

22:59

We have a good task to tell him.

23:01

I mean, there's no way that he isn't

23:03

aware and doesn't know. We believe that was

23:05

a fully staged moment. Oh, yeah.

23:09

TMZ and absolutely, like

23:11

there's a world where he's just walking on

23:13

a sidewalk alone and he happens to

23:15

be there. Maddie, have you heard the album? And

23:18

he just looked up and talked to them like

23:20

completely unstartled. They fully set that

23:22

up. I

23:24

actually found his remarks to be quite dismissive

23:26

to say he hasn't really listened. Like I

23:28

don't really care, even though it's like literally

23:30

what the entire world has been talking about from the

23:33

past five days. We're actually, you have listened.

23:35

Yeah. If Ian Taylor Swift were cuddling

23:37

late at night talking about how Charlie

23:39

Poof should be a bigger artist. He's

23:41

listened to this album about himself, right?

23:44

Yeah. Would you want to, I mean,

23:48

how would you feel if you had a whole album

23:50

written about you? I got Thank You, Amy.

23:54

But if you, if you, if you did have a whole album

23:57

written about you, how would you feel? Would you want to jump

23:59

right into it? to be scared to listen to it?

24:01

You have to know you, I

24:04

would want to know. Yeah. You have to

24:06

know, especially with someone at her level and

24:08

everybody else is going to know you can't

24:10

just avoid it. And

24:14

we're talking to pop apologist, Chan and

24:16

Lauren right now. I learned a lot

24:19

listening to your podcast earlier. You were

24:21

breaking down the whole timeline of Taylor

24:23

Swift and Mattie Healy. Yeah. And that

24:25

was really interesting to me. Thank you

24:27

so much. So we did a whole

24:29

deep dive on the album. Like we

24:31

did, you know, we covered

24:33

a ton of the songs. We were heads down

24:35

listening all weekend after it was released. So we

24:37

could be prepped for that. And

24:39

then what we realized was so much of

24:41

it was about Mattie Healy. And I think

24:43

the parasocial relationship between Taylor and her fans

24:46

is so strong that some of

24:49

them were having difficulty grappling with so many songs

24:51

being about Mattie and almost like in a way

24:53

that could prevent them from enjoying the music. Because

24:55

it's like, how could this girl be so obsessed with

24:58

this guy? She was with for what looks like two

25:00

weeks. And so we felt like the

25:02

fans need to know how deep this really goes so

25:05

they can really understand what's at the core

25:07

of the suffering in these songs. And so

25:09

we released a deep dive on their 10

25:11

year situationship this morning. Yeah,

25:15

that was that was that was impressive. I

25:17

learned a lot. There was a lot that

25:19

I forgot about even her releasing antihero for

25:22

the first time and performing that at a

25:24

1975 concert. But

25:26

you're absolutely correct. This has been something

25:28

that has tortured her for a really,

25:30

really, really long time. And

25:32

some people thought that Joe Allwyn

25:35

got the Calvin Harris treatment

25:37

on this album because they thought this

25:39

whole album was going to be about

25:41

him and it's not. But you all

25:43

think or I heard y'all say that

25:45

Midnight was actually a breakup album, you

25:47

believe. Definitely. I think so many

25:50

of the songs in the nights are Joe

25:52

coded 100 percent and breakup. I mean, there

25:55

will be some people listening to things all about Carly

25:57

Kloss. I don't know that on that team. I think

25:59

that it. I think most

26:01

of those songs were about Joe like maroon.

26:03

I think was a breakup song to Joe

26:05

I think Joe got so many good breakup

26:07

bangers and so yeah, I

26:10

think that I think that Taylor has really like

26:12

Given him gorgeous sonic love Odes

26:15

and devastating breakup songs. Yeah, I

26:17

think I think you're losing me

26:19

was obviously about Joe So

26:23

good. So good. It's different. It's different I

26:25

think that you know midnight is kind of

26:28

about a relationship or the breakup and that's

26:30

you know detailed in midnight as we believe

26:32

It to be is about a relationship running

26:34

its course And this album

26:36

is about a relationship that goes up in fucking flames.

26:38

I'm sorry I don't know if I can swear but

26:40

it goes up in And

26:43

I think something we realized we were doing our deep dive

26:45

is that Maddie has been here

26:47

in her life pre Joe pre Calvin.

26:50

He has been here since 2014. So this is a

26:52

long Standing

26:55

situation ship crush, you know will they

26:57

won't beg you know, like sort of

26:59

moment? And so this relationship

27:01

really when it finally happened and they were public

27:03

and they were out and you know It was

27:06

like off to the races then when it went

27:08

up in flames Like we just got

27:10

this incredible album about you know, how terrible that

27:12

breakup was I guess Yeah,

27:14

and I think people don't realize that she even said that she

27:17

was writing this for like two years Like

27:19

I think a lot of people like see a headline

27:21

and they like I saw so much criticism of people

27:23

being like Why isn't she writing

27:25

so many happy songs about Travis Kelce? And it's like

27:27

well because that is more recent Like we'll probably hear

27:30

more. I mean, yeah We have like so high school

27:32

the alchemy like whatever but that'll probably come later on

27:34

because we're hearing what she was going through For the

27:36

last, you know, like years before that like almost

27:38

like she had to get all of this out Before

27:41

like, you know having her

27:43

relationship with Travis, right? Okay,

27:45

like um How

27:47

does Travis feel about her writing

27:50

about that and even asked his

27:52

mom Donna Kelce and she was

27:54

like It's a fantastic album and

27:56

I could learn a lot from

27:58

Taylor Swift like They're not

28:00

just putting her down. You

28:02

can't take away her feelings. I'd be gaslighting.

28:05

She's just sharing her feelings. And

28:07

yeah, there was someone before you, Travis, but thank

28:09

goodness you're here now. He's

28:12

not threatened. Yeah, he's not

28:14

threatened. I feel like of all of her

28:16

exes, Travis is the least

28:18

threatened by Taylor's success because he

28:20

himself has such massive success also.

28:22

And he gets it. They're both in their

28:24

30s. They both have had

28:26

previous relationships long term, short term. I mean,

28:28

Travis had a dating show. You know, I

28:31

said they've each had their ups and downs

28:33

and love and it would be ridiculous

28:35

to think, oh, you can't write

28:38

about that now that I'm here. It's

28:41

the craziest criticism. Someone's

28:43

asking that question and questioning how he

28:45

feels about her releasing songs. Like this

28:48

is her, hers is her career. This

28:50

is what she's known for. This is what she does. She's one

28:52

of the greatest artists of her time. You think she's not going

28:54

to do that because of a guy she's dating? People

28:57

live on Mars, so I'm concerned. I

28:59

can't really tell. Now, Chan,

29:01

I don't know if we ever got your favorite

29:03

most listened to song on this album. What do

29:05

you think? So for me, it's

29:07

the title track, the Tortured Poets Department. That

29:10

one for me hits, to

29:12

me, it's like a perfect song. I

29:15

think the lyric that strikes me the most

29:17

on there that honestly, like my stomach did

29:19

like a somersault when I heard it is,

29:21

you know, throughout the song, she says, who's going to know

29:23

you? And then she

29:25

switches the line to like, who's going to know me?

29:28

And she says it in a really like breathy voice.

29:30

And I just always find that to be very arresting.

29:33

But yeah, I love, I love the title track. I wasn't expecting

29:35

to like it as well when all the song titles

29:37

were released. I was like, who cares? But

29:40

I love that one. I also, I love So High

29:42

School. I know that that's a controversial love for a

29:44

lot of people, but I cannot stop

29:46

listening to So High School. But it's

29:48

perfect. Like, it's a perfect, it's

29:50

a perfect take on like that young

29:52

love and also just like he knows how to

29:54

ball. I know Aristotle like that's like the perfect

29:57

analogy for the two of them. Yes. Also,

29:59

I read some more of the It's kind of like a 90s rom-com

30:01

song and ever since I read that and like yes It's

30:03

exactly what it is. And that's why I like love it.

30:05

It like belongs at the end of you know 10

30:09

things I hate about you or something. Yeah and

30:12

it's such a great way to celebrate him and

30:15

It it comes as the track

30:17

six on the second album, which is

30:19

always a whiplash coming off Five

30:21

and how it all ends is definitely

30:24

that Are you

30:26

guys curious at all like with Matty

30:28

Healy being who he is? Do

30:31

you think that at some point he could

30:33

like appreciate that the art that came from

30:35

this or do you think that? He's actually

30:37

just gonna like he's waiting.

30:39

I Think

30:41

that he definitely can appreciate the art that came

30:43

from this I would I you don't think he

30:46

can know I'm thinking about it It's a good

30:48

question. Yeah, I think he can't I think you

30:50

know, his ego is probably gonna get in the

30:52

way But he's a long time admirer of Taylor.

30:54

So I I don't think he'll brush this off

30:57

I think he's in a new relationship now But I

30:59

hope that he can like appreciate the art for what

31:01

it is and you know Try to enjoy

31:04

it if he can't that's possible. It's possible to

31:06

enjoy your own diss track Yeah,

31:10

I would say that the the word the worst

31:12

thing isn't hate is obviously in a relationship Indifference

31:14

and like they always say the best revenge is

31:16

just living well or whatever living well as the

31:19

best revenge and so an

31:21

entire You know huge

31:23

album 31 songs 80%

31:26

likely about you I mean if

31:29

they're that's pretty flattering by like

31:31

the greatest artist of our time. That's

31:33

true that I love that perspective That

31:36

is such a good perspective Especially the scope

31:38

of your life like all things with time

31:40

people move on people find you, you know

31:42

things heal for the most

31:44

part and so I just think that like What

31:48

I would be it's just this would be like almost like

31:50

the greatest achievement Yeah, I'm

31:52

a Leo so I would definitely love to have

31:54

a dis album about me that's all I want

32:00

like a performative artist,

32:02

you know, like a tortured poet,

32:04

a tortured soul. And so I,

32:07

when I saw that, which now that you point out that it was probably

32:09

staged and that 100% makes sense, I

32:12

was like, yeah, like if anybody could have, if any of

32:14

her exes could appreciate something like this, I feel like it

32:16

would probably be him. Yeah. Yeah. How

32:18

do you think Maddie is going to be

32:20

reacting to this on stage? Is he going

32:22

to be getting more belligerently drunk

32:24

on stage? Is he gonna, is this a wake

32:26

up call that he needs to sober up a

32:28

little bit? Like I wonder what hit, is he

32:30

gonna go even harder just

32:33

to give a big little finger to everybody? A few

32:35

days ago, he had a performance where he

32:37

said, you know who you are and was

32:40

really aggressive. Wasn't he? Oh no, that was

32:42

back when they were dating, when they were together.

32:45

No, it was two days after Taylor announced

32:47

the tortured poets department at one of his

32:49

shows. He was like, don't come for me. I

32:53

thought it was recent. My bad. It like resurfaced. Okay.

32:55

Well, and when they were together, they

32:58

each mouthed during their concerts,

33:00

like songs about you, you know who you are or

33:02

something like that. I think everyone should

33:06

be grateful for the fact that these two are

33:08

a little bit exhibitionists, you know, both

33:11

of them, respectively. So I think we'll

33:13

hear from Maddie for sure. I cannot

33:15

wait. Yeah, for sure.

33:17

I think the most petty thing that I heard

33:20

on Swift Talk theory is that

33:23

the black dog is Joe Alwyn's favorite

33:26

pub to go to. And he's a

33:28

regular there. And so she

33:30

specifically named dropped that pub knowing

33:32

that Swifties are now going to

33:34

inundate it. That no longer be

33:36

the place that he goes to.

33:39

He's really good. Favorite pub for him.

33:41

It's like, you knew places where he

33:43

could go hide and Taylor took

33:45

her own song, her own lyrics and she outed

33:48

him. He's so private. You know, he like

33:50

relishes that, you know, bad privacy,

33:52

whatever it is. Honestly, the part of that song

33:54

that I am so worked up about is

33:57

when she says, you

33:59

know, there's a lyric where she She says like we were making

34:01

some esoteric joke making fun of me It's a

34:03

love song on some level cuz she's like saying

34:05

how much she misses him and like don't you

34:07

miss me? Like and like she's

34:09

like looking at his location It's forlorn and even

34:12

in that she can't help but bring up the

34:14

fact that he was like low-key Like

34:16

ridiculed her and was you know condescending

34:18

toward her I think all such a

34:20

common theme if you read the lyrics

34:22

there's so many songs on midnight And

34:25

if you look at what it what Jack

34:27

Antonoff said on the bleachers version of

34:29

antihero where he said, you know You're

34:32

too sad to hang out talking shit about your famous,

34:34

baby I think this guy was

34:36

low-key a dick to her and so I don't

34:38

feel bad I hope you can never have

34:40

a drink at the black dog again Do

34:43

you think you do you think he was rude

34:45

to her out of spite out of you're the

34:47

biggest thing in the world? And I'm not yet

34:49

or I'm only known as your

34:51

boyfriend kind of thing. I think we

34:53

resented her I think that they met at a

34:56

time when she wanted to make herself smaller, you

34:58

know reputation era She was hiding from the world

35:00

and that was like a perfect storm when he

35:02

could really like, you know Be her

35:04

knight in shining armor And then I think when she reemerged,

35:06

you know at the butterfly that she is

35:08

even bigger and better than before I think he

35:11

maybe couldn't take it and I think he just

35:13

yeah, he wasn't he wouldn't let her shine I

35:15

mean, this is this is sprinkled across all through

35:17

all of her song. Yeah Another

35:19

thing I want to say about the black dog the

35:21

fact that she says that he didn't even turn off

35:23

his location That to me

35:26

is the biggest like indifference Moment

35:29

and it just that lyric was very gutting for

35:31

me I guess because it's just like wow you

35:33

have a six-year relationship and you don't even care

35:36

Enough to be like, you know, you don't you don't get

35:38

to see where I'm at It's like fizzled out and the

35:40

most but not she said the most But

35:43

all of endings right? Yeah, like the look

35:45

lion or something. I don't remember the lyric

35:47

but yeah Yeah, I think that

35:50

one of the funniest Post I've

35:52

seen in the last couple of days is that

35:54

Joe Allen couldn't even land the lead role in

35:56

the portrait poetry department That's

36:00

good. I have not seen that one. Yeah, that's good. Maddie

36:09

Healy said in an interview like back in the day

36:11

that basically he couldn't handle the idea of being just

36:13

known as Taylor Swift's boyfriend. This was like when they

36:15

first were hooking up or whatever. He, I think he,

36:17

yeah, he said that was like a big thing for

36:19

him. He was trying to come up, you know, in

36:22

the world himself. Yeah, like this like 2016, yeah, not

36:24

like, not recently. And

36:27

so, and so I think that that

36:29

had, and I don't know, like there's just, I

36:31

can understand on a very human level, like Joel

36:33

also is a person and as much as I

36:35

don't want him to enjoy a drink in the

36:37

Black Dog, like, I,

36:40

there's a part of me that kind of gets it. Like,

36:43

I mean, I think as well

36:45

with, you know, with his career, not necessarily

36:47

blossoming and kind of struggling. Yeah, I had,

36:49

I had high hopes for him in conversations

36:51

with friends, but it didn't hit. But yeah,

36:53

I think that, yeah, I think maybe if

36:55

he'd had more career success, it would have

36:58

been a better road for them. I

37:00

don't know. Is he a terrible actor? So hot. And Taylor

37:02

Swift, you would just think that he

37:04

was good in work. The favorite, but he had a

37:06

very small role. To be little,

37:08

her career though, is giving me like

37:10

Simone Biles husband comment, you know, where

37:12

he's like, Oh, well, she was an

37:14

athlete, but I wasn't even aware of

37:16

her. No, she was the athlete.

37:18

She's still, yeah, you can't, yeah,

37:20

you can't diminish her, her progress

37:23

and everything that she's done, because

37:25

you're not aware of her. And

37:27

because you're not doing better than

37:29

her. That's just so narcissist

37:31

and belittling to say that. And I'm

37:33

glad she's not with a person who's

37:35

like that anymore. I'm glad she's with

37:38

a fan that loves her and

37:40

celebrates her success. Totally. Yeah. No,

37:42

I have to ask, I haven't gotten an update from

37:45

Anna. If there's another artist that Taylor or

37:48

if there's another artist that Anna loves, it's

37:50

the 1975. You've seen them

37:53

how many times have you seen them in concert? I've seen them like 10

37:55

times in concert. So how does all

37:58

of the revelations that we have about Matt, over

38:00

the last year, how does that affect you as

38:02

a fan of the 1975? You

38:04

know what? It was a struggle. I'm not gonna lie. It was

38:07

a struggle at first when they like first, I

38:09

guess was it last year when they like were

38:12

first rumored to be dating because I used

38:14

to want them to collab like artistically. So bad.

38:16

There's always been rumors about that. Yeah and

38:18

like when she showed up at the

38:20

1975 show to play anti-hero like I was so excited. I

38:22

was like, oh my god, I'm finally gonna get this collab

38:25

of Taylor Swift in the 1975 and then it's tough, but

38:29

obviously Taylor is my ride or die. But I think when

38:31

I look at the layer of like, okay,

38:33

if he's been, you know, a constant

38:35

in her life for the past decade and

38:37

if he was there to help her write some

38:39

of like midnights especially like he got

38:42

to know some of her deepest, deepest insecurities,

38:44

especially when it came to her relationship with

38:46

Jo and then for him

38:48

to just ghost her like I

38:50

mean, I'm team Taylor 100% but yeah,

38:53

at first I was like, oh man,

38:55

this is kind of a show because I really

38:57

wanted them to collab artistically, which in a way,

38:59

if they're writing music about each other, you're still

39:02

getting that, you know,

39:04

yeah. But yeah, it was, it was,

39:06

it was, yeah, that's a good question, Nick. That was a

39:08

good question. You're welcome. I've

39:11

also one rumor that people

39:13

wondered if he's actually William

39:15

Bowery, but Taylor herself has

39:17

said that it was

39:19

Jo Alwyn. So that's why I'm

39:22

not buying into that, but it would

39:24

be interesting if come to find out.

39:26

I've also heard that she just threw

39:28

William Bowery some credits to get back

39:30

at Calvin Harris. Apparently,

39:35

they'll make three million a year. This is Spencer

39:37

Pratt said this on Heather McDonald's podcast. This is

39:39

up to source. I don't know if it's true,

39:41

but apparently he makes three million a year from

39:45

the royalties from these writing credits.

39:47

So it's a pretty nice, you

39:49

know, parting gift. Lauren

39:54

and Tana, have y'all gotten to see Taylor Swift in

39:56

concert before? Oh, yes. Yeah.

39:58

I have actually been to every every single tour. Wow.

40:02

Yeah. I remember, I

40:04

think fearless, like I touched her arm. I mean,

40:06

I just like, our mom actually, she like, this

40:09

is back when she was running through the crowd,

40:11

okay? I say that, you know, I have an

40:13

OG, but our mom actually was

40:15

at one of the concerts and she got mistaken for

40:17

Andrea Swift. Really? Yeah.

40:20

Like a security guard came up to her and was like, oh,

40:22

do you want to go down to the box or whatever? And

40:24

then he, when she turned around, anyway, so. Yes, yes we

40:26

did. We've been to a lot of this shows. I

40:28

would use mom to try to get into

40:30

every show then and throw down that gauntlet.

40:33

Don't you know who I am? Just back

40:35

her up into the stadium, deliver your face.

40:37

We can have your mom walk around with Ashley.

40:39

Isn't that her name? It's just Ashley. And just

40:41

see what kind of commotion comes up. Oh

40:44

my God. That's so good. And

40:46

what do you guys, especially as pop apologists,

40:48

what do you guys think about Thank You Amy?

40:53

This is a song I'm not gonna be reaching

40:55

for, but it's fine to me. It's

40:57

not one of my favorites off the album. I

41:00

think it's odd for her to bring back

41:02

the drama and the

41:04

feud after it's been so long. I

41:07

think I'm starting to subscribe to the theory that her

41:09

and Kim are in cahoots about this. I haven't even

41:11

told you this, but I wouldn't be surprised. It was

41:14

like, this will be, you know, this will make you

41:16

relevant again or whatever. This will be good for both

41:18

of us. And that, you

41:20

know, that she maybe actually asked Kim if she could write

41:22

this song or whatever. And that it's

41:24

maybe not even necessarily about Kim, but it's about somebody

41:26

else. So she's kind of

41:28

nasting it as a song about Kim. When

41:30

she says I've changed the names in any

41:33

real defining clues, I mean, capitalizing K-I-M is

41:35

a real defining clue. So I

41:38

guess I just feel like I really

41:40

struggle with this. It's hard for me to

41:42

believe that it's about Kim Kardashian, although all

41:44

the lyrics point to that. I kind of

41:46

wonder if it's about Carly Klot. Yeah,

41:49

I've heard that. I've heard that. Yeah, I

41:51

was kind of under, I almost thought like, it's

41:54

too obvious, you know? I

41:56

am, but then you hear that lyric, but then it's also like,

41:58

okay, but is that kind of... I like the joke

42:00

about it. Like, you know, so it's, it's, it's

42:03

an interesting take, but I, I, I almost felt

42:05

like it could have just been like

42:07

in general, maybe directed at multiple people,

42:09

you know, maybe scooter,

42:12

carly, anyone that's wrong to, I've heard some people say,

42:14

you know, maybe it's actually directed at Kanye, but she

42:16

kind of took the straight with Kim, you know, like

42:18

it just kind of just depends on how you

42:20

look at it. Yeah. And I saw that right after

42:22

that song dropped, Kim posted a picture with

42:24

Carly Closs. It was a group of people. Yeah.

42:27

I think on her story with Carly Closs. So

42:29

was that Kim's response? Yeah. Or is she

42:31

just kind of rubbing Taylor's nose in it or

42:34

yes. I

42:37

think Kim during the pod, Kim loves the

42:40

attention. Are you kidding? There's

42:42

also a theory that I've heard from

42:44

Swifty's online of saying like, she's bringing

42:46

this back up because reputation is next.

42:48

And she's just bringing this drama back

42:50

to the forefront. So once reputation Taylor's

42:52

version comes out, we remember

42:55

that time period and all the drama surrounding it.

42:57

So that album hits just as hard

42:59

as it did back then. Which I think

43:01

is true because I had a lot

43:03

of people ask me as the resident Swifty,

43:05

what is their feud? And then once I

43:07

would mention it, they're like, Oh yeah, I

43:10

forgot about that. Yeah. There are so many

43:12

more Swifty's people either like you say, Lacey

43:14

forgot, or they just don't even know that

43:16

part of the celebrity world. They

43:18

don't even remember those rumors. Yeah.

43:21

And I think that we

43:23

just, we fail to comprehend how

43:25

badly this hurt her. Like we saw

43:27

Miss Americana, how she described how gutting

43:29

this experience was and how she felt

43:32

like everything she had built her in

43:34

our castle crumbled overnight. And

43:36

essentially being so young when it happened too. And

43:39

it's like you're building all these dreams as

43:42

like a teenager and then in your early

43:44

twenties and then at 25 to have what

43:46

feels like the world turn against you. And

43:48

we had our kind of mini cancellation over

43:50

some over like some Kate Middleton stuff.

43:52

And that was pretty interesting thing

43:55

to experience. I can't imagine feeling

43:57

like everyone hated you. And I

43:59

think What was especially terrible about

44:01

it is that, you know, like

44:03

Taylor, like had her own fans, people

44:05

who were true Taylor lifers

44:08

turn against her. And I think, you know, like for

44:10

us, it was like, and a much smaller scale, like

44:12

random people on the internet. But then it's like, okay,

44:14

no people who like know me who thought I was

44:16

amazing, who thought I was great and amazing, like now

44:19

actually think I'm a snake. Yeah,

44:22

yeah, makes sense to me that she is she

44:24

it's still, you know, is a setting to her

44:26

because it's dramatic to

44:28

build on that, just like y'all are saying, you know, if

44:30

I'm going to be the Taylor apologist, who

44:34

are we to say how long someone

44:36

can have feelings about a situation? She's

44:38

an artist, she's an artist. So I

44:41

mean, her literal job is to write about those

44:43

feelings. So for a lot of people,

44:45

it's trivial. But to her, it really

44:47

meant something. And yeah, it is still sticking in

44:49

her side. And she does still have emotions to

44:51

get out of it. And she's also singing about

44:54

getting over those emotions and

44:57

looking at it from far away and

45:00

saying, Hey, this actually turned out to be okay.

45:02

Because look at what's happening right

45:04

now. Yeah. You're over something and then

45:06

the wound opens up again. Yeah, and

45:09

I've seen so many people be like, Oh my god, she's

45:11

in her 30s, she should be over by now. It's like, Yeah,

45:13

well, so was Kim when she did all of this. Kim

45:16

was in her 30s. When she when this

45:18

all happened. So like, you can't tell

45:20

someone how to feel. Yeah. I

45:23

also think that there's like this recurring criticism

45:26

of Taylor that she's in her 30s

45:28

now. And she thinks like, put away

45:30

being dramatic about ex boyfriends and like

45:33

those kind of feelings that those feelings

45:35

are juvenile. And I to be

45:37

honest with you, like those criticisms, they,

45:39

I kind of understand where people are coming

45:41

from. And there's a part of me

45:43

that wonders like why as a culture, we

45:46

don't we think it's we have such a

45:48

disdain for feeling as you get older, like

45:50

why you have to just become number and

45:52

number to life, you know, and I feel

45:54

like it's this strange expectation, we put on

45:56

people and we project on to Taylor Swift

45:58

like this. taste for still

46:01

being a sensitive, lovesick person. Like,

46:03

by that experience, you don't deserve

46:05

to have that experience because you've

46:07

lived long enough. It's just a

46:09

weird cultural reaction in my opinion.

46:11

You're absolutely right because we're coming

46:13

into a time where we're finally

46:15

learning that it's okay to be

46:17

emotional, that you're allowed to. You

46:20

don't just have to sit back and shut up

46:22

and not cry because you feel a certain way.

46:24

And that was the generation that we were raised

46:26

in. And now we're trying to break the cycle.

46:30

That it's saying it's all your emotions

46:32

and it's okay to feel like that.

46:34

And then, like I said earlier,

46:36

to say something otherwise is a little bit

46:38

gaslighting. To say that you're just being dramatic

46:40

and you have no right to feel this

46:43

way. You need to be a mature adult

46:45

now and handle it like a woman. Well,

46:47

you are strong. You're putting it

46:49

all out there for other people and that takes a

46:51

lot of guts. Which I also kind of explain why

46:53

to us it feels

46:56

so therapeutic to listen to her. Because

46:58

if we've been suppressing feelings and suppressing trauma

47:00

and feel like we can't vocalize it or

47:02

be emotional about things, but then we listen

47:04

to her basically put into words what we're

47:06

feeling, maybe that's part of why we

47:08

find her music to be so cathartic. This

47:11

is one of my favorite things to talk about and I'm

47:13

going to get on a soapbox for a second. I

47:16

apologize if I start preaching because I am a Taylor Swift apologist.

47:19

There's two things about, oh, Taylor writes too much

47:21

about her relationships. It's all about love. Then,

47:25

name one artist who doesn't write about

47:28

relationships. One artist who doesn't write about

47:30

love. That's what 90% of songs

47:32

are about. It's about all the different stages of

47:34

love. The puppy dog phase, the breakup

47:36

phase. When Adele got a

47:38

divorce, everyone was looking forward to

47:40

a divorce album. Why is it okay for

47:43

Adele to sing about breakup, but not Taylor

47:45

Swift? And then also, yeah, Taylor sings about

47:47

these things. Society is telling her, telling women,

47:49

you're worthless if you're not married. She's telling

47:51

you why these things aren't working out. So

47:53

what she's supposed to do, not

47:56

sing about it, well, she's telling you why. She

47:58

can't win either way. It frustrates me.

48:00

It's like there's there's no way for

48:03

her to win when it comes to

48:05

someone criticizing her singing about relationships. Yeah

48:08

I'm done. Yeah I'm

48:10

here for it I also think Adele is almost a

48:12

little bit of an outlier in the way that she

48:14

celebrated for continual like having a lot of breakup Songs

48:17

I almost feel like when men

48:19

write breakup music or music that's

48:21

about like, you know The object

48:23

of their affection that is, you

48:25

know universally I think accepted as

48:28

like romantic and just incredible and

48:30

when I think a lot has been women

48:32

can You know there the

48:35

the idea that a woman is like gazing

48:37

upon a man And it's like

48:39

the the female gaze is something I think as

48:42

a culture. We also, you know, we

48:44

don't sit well with it And I

48:47

think that just goes back to like, you know are

48:49

across time We're not

48:51

used to the female gaze were used

48:53

to and comfortable with the male gay. Yeah

48:56

And when it comes to you know,

48:58

especially the female gaze and lust I

49:01

mean she has dress She has

49:03

a song on this album guilty of

49:05

sin. It's a teeny song. Yeah. Yeah

49:08

He's saying that yeah, I can sing

49:10

about these thoughts and imaginations also Yeah,

49:14

I love it. I love that. She's now at a

49:16

point where it's like I don't care I don't have

49:18

to be you know Pleasing the moms of the people

49:20

listening to this music like if this is just exactly

49:23

what I want to put out there Yeah,

49:26

which is one of those other situations where she can't win if

49:29

she sings shake it off It's like oh my gosh, they write

49:31

music for kids and then Why

49:33

is she not writing music for my kids? What

49:41

do you want from her like she just cannot

49:43

win and I think in this album she explores

49:45

that a lot Yeah, like you know like her

49:47

like perspective and she's like I had

49:49

said in one of our earlier episodes Like I feel

49:51

like in this album She's just using the words that

49:54

she wants to use to express the feelings that she

49:56

wants to express and like she didn't send It

49:58

to anybody to like, you know double check

50:00

like near this and send and

50:03

I and I love I just love that for her

50:05

and I think that's part of what makes this so

50:07

powerful. I just like yeah, I

50:09

also think I'm curious if any of you have had

50:11

a similar experience you know since we're in the safe

50:13

trust tree of all being swifties. I

50:16

do think we're living in a time where it's

50:18

like the pitchforks have always been out for Taylor

50:21

Swift but especially given the last year and just

50:23

kind of her media like presence being everywhere like

50:25

I just like the pitchforks have never been like

50:28

sharper or higher like waiting for her to fall

50:30

and that's kind of a theory of mine that

50:32

like why a lot of reviews are bad about

50:34

this album. I just think people want to see

50:36

her fail. They like she's too

50:38

big. She had her tour was

50:41

too big. It was too crazy. It you know

50:43

affected the GDP too much whatever and

50:45

I I do think it's been a really

50:47

interesting like moment in culture and even across

50:49

like friend groups like there was an article

50:51

that came out like I think in the

50:53

cut about like when Taylor Swift like ends

50:55

a friendship or something like that. And when

50:57

your fandom kind of gets in the way or

50:59

not gets in the way but I think that like

51:02

it can be a really polarizing thing now to be

51:04

a Swifty. I don't know if that's been your experience.

51:06

I mean obviously you have the Taylor Swift podcast but

51:08

have you have you experienced that? Yeah

51:11

I mean personally I kind of

51:13

feel like just in general the way that we

51:15

are as a society it's

51:18

extremely polarizing on all issues. You can't really

51:20

have a middle of the road opinion. You

51:22

have to have an extreme view on something

51:24

either way and whatever that

51:26

extreme view is sucks. It's awful. You're a

51:29

terrible person kind of no matter what side

51:31

it is. And

51:33

also I'm not saying this is right

51:35

but almost when you have a lot of haters

51:38

that just means you're bigger. The more

51:40

haters you have the bigger you are. So like

51:43

not that it should be a badge of honor

51:45

but it's like she's the biggest person in the

51:47

world. So yeah people do root

51:49

for her to fail just like yeah people were rooting

51:51

against Tom Brady to win all of his Super Bowls.

51:53

Yeah. He was great. What

51:55

do you want him to do? Stop playing football because he's

51:57

so good. No they're just going to keep doing

51:59

it. what they do, whether you like it or

52:02

not. Yeah. People just don't want

52:04

to believe in the success. They want to

52:06

think that she is overhyped,

52:08

oversaturated, that she hasn't done

52:11

and earned everything that

52:13

she did. Even all the haters

52:15

and the headlines on this latest

52:17

album, she's breaking records that she

52:19

started herself. She's always hopping everything,

52:22

but rather than give her the

52:24

credit that she deserved, people

52:26

want to say that she's a witch

52:28

and she's casting spells and putting narcotics

52:30

in her song. She

52:32

hears all that and then addresses it that

52:34

people are still like, but I don't like

52:37

her. I don't get that. It's like

52:39

you've never listened to an album. You don't

52:41

understand. There's a snobbery. Yeah. It's

52:45

always the people who I've only heard Shake It Off

52:47

in 22 or me. Yeah,

52:49

exactly. Real offensive country flippies. But yeah. They

52:52

haven't listened. They legitimately haven't listened. I

52:55

really, I believe this to my core. If

52:58

you've actually given her music a proper

53:00

shot and listened to the albums, you're

53:02

a Swifty. That's it.

53:04

Yeah. It's a spectrum. Maybe

53:06

as Swifty as a... Yeah, that's

53:09

true. But yeah, you see her talent. I

53:11

had someone recently bring up the fact that her

53:13

dad invested in the record company or something

53:16

like that. I don't know those details. Yeah,

53:18

he bought her success. Yeah, he bought her

53:20

success. And I'm just like, I can't even

53:22

believe that you think that... Somehow,

53:25

they're continuing to pull the wool over her eyes and just

53:27

buy her way to the top. Yeah.

53:30

She just reinvents what the top even is. Yeah. I recently

53:33

saw a lot of criticism from... I

53:36

forget what review it was, but they were saying she's

53:38

not giving anyone else a chance because she keeps putting

53:40

out all of her albums and stuff. And my reaction

53:42

is like, if other artists want to be as successful

53:44

as her, they need to work as hard as her.

53:46

You know what I mean? It's

53:50

such a baffling way to

53:52

look at it. Going

53:54

back to Tom Brady, did he just go

53:56

easy on the other teams just because he was

53:58

the best? Do people tell LeBron

54:00

James, hey, maybe go easy on this because they haven't

54:03

had a win in a while? It's

54:05

like, no, is Marvel supposed to stop making

54:07

movies? Right. It's like,

54:09

it's all it's just so frustrating. And a

54:11

true artist would never think that way. A

54:14

true artist who's really interested in their body

54:16

of work, the canon that they're creating, their

54:18

legacy, they're not thinking in terms of like,

54:20

well, am I going to be number one

54:22

on the billboard for X number of weeks?

54:25

And this person's doing that for me. Like,

54:27

that's just I think that

54:29

someone who, you know, is actually really considered

54:32

and thoughtful with the way they put our

54:34

art, they're thinking about this in

54:36

a much less grasping,

54:39

greedy commercial way. And, you know, sorry, the

54:41

Taylor is so prolific, but just because she's

54:43

putting a lot of music, that doesn't mean

54:45

that there aren't also other amazing artists. Right.

54:48

And she's still making room for people.

54:50

I mean, that's what she is. That's

54:52

the whole point of Clara Bow is

54:54

that everybody's preps at prime to be

54:56

the next Taylor Swift, not to join

54:58

her and her success. It's who's going

55:00

to replace her and become the next

55:02

one. And she's always

55:05

said she's more than happy to share the stage.

55:07

We don't have to be pitted against each other.

55:09

We all have crowns. Yeah. Yeah.

55:12

And everyone who's ever worked with her have said that how hard

55:14

of a worker she is. So where are the people

55:16

that didn't like working with her? Totally.

55:18

I like to hear from them. That's

55:20

such a great point. Yeah. Like,

55:22

I don't know that I've even heard of one story where someone was

55:24

like, I hate a working with Taylor Swift. She was terrible to work

55:27

with like that. But I've known we would

55:29

know we all would know. We

55:31

would definitely know. We

55:34

are talking to pop apologists,

55:36

stars, Chan and Lauren sisters

55:39

that have an excellent podcast

55:41

where they break everything down.

55:43

I want to know when did you all become

55:46

celebrity focused? When did you

55:48

realize as sisters that this was something

55:50

you wanted to pursue? When

55:54

I learned to read, I think that was my first

55:56

moment when I could pick up an Us Weekly. Yeah.

55:59

I have a question. I just, I don't remember a

56:01

beginning. There was no beginning. It was just from the

56:03

womb, you know? Is your

56:05

mom a big celebrity fan? Actually,

56:08

I feel like my mom is pretty anti-gossip.

56:10

I actually don't think she's that interesting for

56:12

the reason at all. No. Interesting.

56:15

Like she has her like favorites, but she's

56:17

not like an aficionado. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

56:21

I will say. Yeah. Right. I

56:23

was just gonna say, to look

56:25

at her music from the lens of like truly like

56:27

pop culture. Cause like on our podcast, we talk,

56:29

like we go through like the lyrics and like

56:31

the, like the language of a and her effects and

56:34

emotions and feelings, but it's, it's really cool

56:36

to also look at it through like a different lens. the

56:39

conversation has been really, it's been really interesting. Thank

56:41

you so much for having us. Yeah. So,

56:45

Well, and I want to pry more a

56:47

little bit deeper. I know that, that,

56:51

Tia and you live in New York, right? I live in

56:53

New York. Yeah. Okay. And Lauren,

56:55

they're visiting from Puerto Rico. Yeah.

56:59

What a cool place to live. Oh my God.

57:01

Delicate that. But there's a little bit of secrecy

57:03

surrounding why y'all are in New York right now.

57:05

Do you want to share what you can

57:08

about that? Is there a secrecy?

57:11

Are you referring to like, were we secretive about it on

57:13

our episode or something? I thought there

57:15

was a little bit of a new one that

57:17

you couldn't really feel everything. Yeah. I

57:19

mean, I guess we can share what hasn't come. Yeah.

57:22

I think we're now very over hyped. So

57:25

it's not that big of a secret, but we,

57:27

we just got really, we were really excited to

57:30

go on Sophia Franklin's podcast and she just had

57:32

us on her show and she obviously has a

57:34

really big show. And so it was, you know,

57:36

a big deal for us and we were really

57:39

excited about it. But I think it's one of

57:41

those things where like we hadn't actually taped it

57:43

yet. So until we had taped it and it

57:45

was going to go live, we were just not going to count

57:47

our chicken. So, Yeah. Well,

57:50

congratulations. That's really cool. Thank you. Thank you. I

57:52

think it was a great studio and set up and

57:54

everything. Yeah. It was killer.

57:56

Really seamless. Yeah. How did it

57:58

go? It was great. It was really

58:00

good. Yeah, yeah. It was fun. Did you

58:02

talk about Taylor Swift? Yeah, it was so funny. She was like,

58:04

I think I'm a Swiftie. And then she was like, when did

58:06

the album come out? I'm like, you are not a

58:09

Swiftie. We were like, please. Ha ha ha

58:11

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

58:13

ha ha ha. That is amazing. Love and respect.

58:15

So like, if you were asking yourself when the album came

58:17

out, like, we're just, you know,

58:20

two different types of people. Which is so funny,

58:22

cause like, that's so baffling to me. Like last week I was

58:24

talking to like one of my friends. I was like, yeah, the

58:26

new Taylor Swift album. She was like, oh yeah, I forgot she

58:28

has a new album. Like how did you

58:30

forget? Like what? No, my life revolves

58:32

around it. Like I don't know. Literally. Like

58:35

I was planning vacations around like, okay, well, like the Taylor Swift album

58:37

will be out by then. So you can enjoy it then. And like,

58:39

yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

58:41

ha ha ha ha ha ha. It was my like eclipse. Ha

58:44

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. So

58:47

on top of Sofia Franklin, what else can

58:49

people look forward to you all

58:51

releasing soon? What's on your plan?

58:54

What's on your manifesto, if you will? Do you have

58:57

a lot of Taylor Swift coming up? I

59:00

mean, thank you so much for asking. I think that

59:02

right now we have that deep dive on Tortured Poets

59:04

department. We also have the deep dive on Taylor and

59:06

Maddie. So that's probably gonna be interesting to people who

59:08

are listening. And then we just

59:11

kind of get on and chat about honestly,

59:13

Taylor and other celebrities. Ha ha ha ha

59:15

ha ha ha. Every Wednesday and then Friday

59:17

on Patreon. So it's a

59:20

continual conversation. That's really

59:22

awesome. And that deep dive with

59:24

Taylor and Maddie is such important context. So

59:26

thank you for taking the time to do

59:28

that. It's our public service. It was

59:30

our pleasure. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

59:32

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Well, thanks so much for

59:34

taking the time to chit chat with us. It's awesome meeting New Swifties,

59:36

or New Swifties to us, meeting more. Ha ha ha ha ha ha

59:38

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

59:40

ha. And it's just been a blast to pick your brains and get

59:42

your thoughts on this new album. So we wish you all continued

59:45

success. And we hope all of our

59:47

listeners go and check you guys out. We love you, Bruta.

59:49

Thank you so much. We love your podcast.

59:51

Where can everybody find you? So

59:53

we are pop apologists on

59:56

Instagram, YouTube, everywhere you listen

59:58

to podcasts, pop apologists. That's

1:00:00

right. And my personal is Lauren having fun In

1:00:04

case Apologist, thank

1:00:07

you guys so much has been such a blast. Thank

1:00:09

you guys. See you soon. See ya.

1:00:11

Bye Thank

1:00:14

you. Well that does it for this

1:00:16

episode of 13 a Taylor Swift fan podcast again

1:00:18

Thanks to Spotify and the Spotify mashups for helping

1:00:20

us put this episode together Go

1:00:22

check out pop apologists on Spotify You

1:00:25

can find a link to their show

1:00:27

in this episode's description and what

1:00:30

is on I have no idea What we are

1:00:32

teasing for the next episode. It's

1:00:34

been this love for a month It's

1:00:37

still this love. Okay So

1:00:40

join us next time for this love Thanks

1:00:45

for listening the 13

1:00:47

a Taylor Swift fan podcast Subscribe

1:00:50

for free and leave a positive

1:00:52

review on Apple podcast Spotify or

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