0:01

We we need to give you an African named. Josh Yeah,

0:03

we're fine. We need we need to

0:05

find something for you. Want

0:08

to call you call it like Mancha Mans

0:10

I would be a good South African mean

0:12

what does that mean? It means strength? Know

0:15

it gives. Actually, just you know. Why

0:19

you laughing at yourself if is

0:21

just. A. Straight.

0:27

A's way I was do about meet greet

0:29

last night at the club after the show

0:32

here and there was a big man big

0:34

big man tall man right and he was

0:36

so excited at he was like i've been

0:38

watch and on facebook and I'm so proud

0:40

of you and he grabbed my hand and

0:43

his hair was so big he was so

0:45

strong that i we both hurt my knuckle

0:47

pop. Ever. Had health or

0:49

his head of get him at all I

0:51

all outside of i bought our good of

0:53

good and I'll be there for the i

0:55

tried to adjust by oh but and that

0:58

it's funny and so for you that x

1:00

ray to be like obliterate. I

1:02

find that a lot of the African name's the people

1:04

have been given. Have. Actually,

1:07

Proved. True in some way. shape or

1:09

form. And. So I feel like if we

1:11

give you much lower than than you'll you know

1:13

how do you say money muscles. Money?

1:16

Muscles? Yeah. Just go ahead and get

1:18

both of them in one. I'm sorry,

1:21

what? Act.

1:24

You're listening to what now?

1:26

The podcast where I chatter

1:28

interesting people about the conversations

1:31

taking over our world will

1:33

start off by hitting some

1:35

fun news stories is a

1:37

i just a farce. And

1:39

can we finally start slinging

1:42

racist report cards and corporations?

1:45

But the big idea for

1:47

this week? Masculinity? Violent. and

1:49

why we keep seeing stories

1:51

of young people, especially young

1:53

men harming others. Out of a

1:55

sense of alienation from society. Will touch

1:57

on some serious themes today, but like.

2:00

We think having no matter the topic if you're

2:02

doing it was smart people you respect he can

2:04

always find a way for have a reward a

2:06

conversation. Now the

2:08

only thing I love more sense

2:10

healing back the layers of a

2:12

story is doing it's with my

2:15

favorite. Think of the Once again.

2:17

I'm joined by writer and journalist

2:19

Christiana Bug where Medina and Comedian

2:21

writer Strongest Man In The World

2:23

Josh. Welcome.

2:26

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4:19

up everybody? Happy podcast day. How y'all doing?

4:22

Happy podcast day. I'm doing well. Happy

4:24

podcast day. Josh, how's the road treating

4:26

you? Because I feel like you... I

4:29

mean like obviously we used to roll together on the road

4:32

all the time but these days you're like now you're like

4:35

road, road comic. How are you

4:37

feeling? Is it lonely? Is it

4:39

tiring? I feel

4:41

pretty good actually. I feel like my entire life

4:43

has been preparing me for this. I've slept on

4:45

a lot of couches. I've done

4:48

a lot of things in life

4:50

to get to this point and

4:52

I was a road dog the whole time without knowing it.

4:55

Right. My life has been preparing me for

4:58

this moment. All my life

5:00

this is what I've been preparing for.

5:02

Christiana, how's life treating you? How's the mom

5:05

world going? It's miserable.

5:07

OB has pinkeye. He's always

5:10

getting something so I had to go and get

5:12

him from school because like when you have pinkeye

5:15

as a preschooler you become an untouchable.

5:17

Like I think it's better to get COVID than pinkeye

5:19

at this point. Do

5:22

children know that they

5:24

have these issues? Do

5:26

they even remember it? Oh yeah. No, they know

5:28

they're disgusting. So now, OB's like running around trying

5:30

to put

5:33

his eyes on everyone because he knows he's got

5:35

something good in his eye. So they're like very

5:37

self-aware. I was thinking more like remorse. No,

5:39

no, no, no. He's like, I want you to have

5:42

eyes like me, mommy. I'm like, no, I don't want

5:44

to have green stuff coming out of

5:46

my eye. Stupid American. Yeah, it's another thing

5:48

that he's American, which is very weird. I

5:50

have an American child. Oh

5:53

yeah. Very strange

5:55

to have like, I didn't think I'd have

5:57

an American child. That's fascinating. I just assumed

5:59

your child was Smoke like you are now. I'm like

6:01

oh no, you haven't about it. I think that's. What He

6:03

wants? Something you like Mommy: Can I have

6:05

chocolate? Actually,

6:10

Live outside my business. Here I am

6:12

I was as I have. you do.

6:16

Oh my goodness Santana! Well I'm glad to

6:18

hear what the snow and pleasure live. I'm

6:20

glad I know maybe this is good This

6:22

is good I'm I'm I'm happy for one.

6:24

Welcome to welcome to episode everybody and will

6:27

come to everybody listening or we got a

6:29

fun show today as it's a interesting smoke.

6:31

Everything about it will be fun but I

6:33

think the conversations around it's will be fun.

6:35

I was have fun having. Conversations Regardless

6:37

of how difficult the Os and Us

6:40

for today's episode you know I I

6:42

think there's one big topic that's we

6:44

really need to get into and it

6:46

involves the stabbing that success in Australia

6:48

a few weeks ago which. You

6:51

know everyone agrees is really really

6:53

sad story that I think. Added

6:56

a little more texture to to.

6:59

You know, massive violence in a way that

7:01

that other stories oftentimes can't or don't I'm

7:03

so will be chatting about that as well.

7:05

But first I want to jump off with

7:07

a few. I'm. Sure, the fun

7:10

stories that like the life stories

7:12

that I think everyone should be

7:14

assessed should be aware of. My

7:16

favorite one easily easily easily is

7:18

I'm you both aware of. The

7:21

Amazon stores that would launched were you

7:23

could walk into a store. Pick.

7:25

Everything up, put it into basket and leave

7:27

without paying. You both remember this right? And

7:30

yes, because it felt like a trap. It.

7:32

Did Josh I remember you saying this? By the

7:34

way, it did feel like a transit as a

7:36

black man in America Gaidar just go in. To.

7:39

Describe what are we want to smoke and. See

7:43

what happens? See what happens.

7:45

But I'm. Yet. And

7:47

it was. It was amazing technology. you know Amazon

7:49

As I take as the said this is the

7:51

future of this is a I'm and and a

7:53

lot of people were angry obviously. Because.

7:56

They felt like this was another example. Of

7:59

Jobs. Being taken away from

8:01

people. well, I have good

8:03

news for the jobs people and bad news for

8:05

the Ai people. It turns

8:07

out. That's. It.

8:10

Was the team of about a thousand

8:12

people in India. Who. Was

8:15

hired. To. Just watch customers

8:17

shop and review their transactions. A.

8:20

I'd. Stood for all Indian.

8:22

And. It was just. Sitting

8:25

there was just a thousand Indian people

8:27

watching you in a store and then

8:29

they which is basically do all the

8:32

hard work. Seen. All those people

8:34

were like a as gonna kill us know a i

8:36

won't kill us. A few

8:38

people from India will kill us because they've been

8:40

hired. Oh

8:46

wow. The thing

8:49

I do like about Amazon is a

8:51

site a on Zealand's and kind of

8:53

to embrace being finance. To don't

8:55

like med let like that there's no

8:57

pretense with them at so they're like

8:59

oh yeah we mess with our competition

9:01

and we just holler people in india

9:04

and then if you concern us about

9:06

were like oh you're lying yeah like

9:08

is to say I just owning being

9:10

the bad guy with his refreshing Most

9:12

companies like all within a be good

9:14

to the environmental impact will apologize yeah

9:17

other companies will apologize they definitely fall.

9:19

There's just two camps of of have

9:21

Pr and how people move after a

9:23

scandal like this building. Amazon. Way and

9:25

Apple way. Apple knows that they're no longer

9:27

giving us such a good product that will

9:29

shut up. They know they changed the plugs

9:32

too many times. They know that like speed

9:34

of Sound like they they know they've got

9:36

a lot of guys because I like y'all

9:38

Y'all okay because they know they can't double

9:40

dip you can either have a bad product

9:42

and make us feel good about using that

9:44

are you can make us feel good about

9:46

you mean like the gay ass for you

9:48

have a good product and you don't care

9:51

about how? Yeah, Because I always and Amazon

9:53

is like. You. Caught us and what

9:55

you don't do about it has ss and

9:57

I bet you still want those trays in.

10:00

Today's those trades you order. If you

10:02

want to give you a quaint you

10:04

go shut up by. It's interesting. What

10:06

one of the only upsides of not

10:08

having a permanent abode for myself, not

10:10

having a home has been the fact

10:12

that I'd I'd barely use Amazon anymore.

10:15

I. She'd as he didn't realize how.

10:18

Am I addicted to Amazon? I was.

10:20

Actually, I was ordering everything for no

10:23

reason. I mean like everything

10:25

everything I would sit down on a chess and

10:27

then I'll be like ah man I wish I

10:29

could I wish I could put my seats on

10:31

something that was also a screen for my books

10:33

at the same and have gone amazon and of

10:35

like foothold a book screen device and it would

10:38

be there and I would order it and would

10:40

come to my house and I'll be like yeah

10:42

this is great I'm okay so in on the

10:44

one you want to talk about villains are this.

10:46

This was a great story This was I mean

10:49

I say great but the please for everyone listening

10:51

understand I mean you to know me when I

10:53

say great. Is sometimes it It.

10:55

It's not because it is good, is

10:57

just because it illuminates something that sparks

10:59

conversation. So I'm. Eat.

11:01

There is no denying. That

11:03

ah, there's a lot of racism

11:05

in hiring. Sites. But

11:08

there is also no denying that lot

11:10

of a time black people look crazy

11:12

when they say there is racism. In

11:15

hiring I think we we all know each

11:17

different versions of of what that feels like.

11:19

You know, like often out often say to

11:21

people. Racism is a lot

11:24

like I'm It's like it's like

11:26

an invisible bus. Ride

11:28

that only hits black people when they

11:30

cross the road. An older

11:32

white people who with them or like what happens you.

11:35

And. Then I can see a bus. And like there

11:37

was no bus. I don't know why you always do

11:39

this and that there was a busts. The bus is

11:41

the reason I could walk across the road and the

11:44

last. Why did the bus hit me and I don't

11:46

know why the posted messages and you feel like you're

11:48

crazy or this this this is it. That an amazing

11:50

story. There was a at the

11:52

study that was released nights and essentially

11:54

what happened was these researchers came out

11:56

and then they did release the study

11:58

And Twenty Twenty One. like trying to

12:01

figure out like you know how do

12:03

companies hire why do they hire etc

12:05

etc etc but but what they did

12:07

was they applied

12:09

to a bunch of companies

12:12

and they

12:14

basically generated resumes that

12:16

were all exactly the same however

12:18

the only thing they changed on the resumes was

12:21

they changed the names they changed

12:23

the names to be like

12:26

white names quote-unquote you know

12:28

like Brock and Chad and

12:31

then the other ones they chose like

12:33

names that are considered really black you

12:35

know and so they're like Demar and

12:37

like Kashanda and those types of names and

12:40

they submitted these applications to the same companies

12:43

in the same manner at the same time

12:46

and the results they got

12:48

back were crazy basically

12:51

what they found was

12:53

if you have a white sounding name like

12:55

the spread is 9% in your favor and that

12:58

you're more likely to get called in for the

13:00

interview but what was more

13:02

interesting than usual in these studies which we've

13:04

seen before is they broke it down by

13:06

the companies and it turns out and maybe

13:08

there's a little bit of good news by the way it turns out

13:11

that the 9% wasn't evenly

13:13

shared by every single company so there were

13:15

some companies where it was only like 3%

13:18

which is still not perfect but it was

13:20

only like 3% right but then there were

13:22

some companies and it was really interesting that

13:25

they were particularly in like

13:27

the field of like auto parts right

13:30

it was like car parts particularly in

13:33

those fields it was a 24% gap so if you had a

13:37

black sounding name you were

13:39

really up against it in getting an interview

13:42

at these auto parts companies and

13:46

I mean I as I said I said a

13:48

great story and what I mean by that is

13:50

it vindicates a lot of people for sure if

13:52

you're going for a job interview you

13:54

should change your name on the

13:57

application is what I think I

13:59

mean look Josh Johnson is pretty

14:01

much a win. That's

14:03

a pretty much a great name. That's a W

14:05

out, right? It's not until they see me because

14:07

even on the phone on the phone I give

14:09

them what they're what they're looking for No,

14:12

you you're fantastic. I remember when we hired you on the

14:14

daily show I was I was

14:16

like like we looked through the submissions and we

14:18

saw your writing and I was like man This

14:20

this guy's amazing and I was like he is

14:22

really in touch with the black experience This

14:25

is surprising. You don't normally see white writers who

14:27

are this in touch with the black experience You

14:31

know and I was like let's see this josh johnson

14:33

person and then you walked in and I

14:35

was like, huh? You you

14:37

are the josh johnson and and

14:40

then you started speaking then I was like, oh no, this is the josh

14:42

johnson And

14:45

uh Be

14:53

careful now Not

14:55

too much on josh. No, no,

14:57

no, but he knows You

15:00

know, it's you know, what's funny about this. So my mom my

15:02

mom had this so I

15:05

think one of the reasons my mom did

15:07

as well as she did in life is

15:09

because I mean

15:11

like most black south africans We

15:13

had what was you know The same way they say in

15:15

america like your your government name and then like your name

15:18

And so in south africa you had a traditional name that

15:20

was afforded to you by your tribe, you know christiana You

15:22

know what i'm talking about as well as nigerians But

15:25

you then you had like a biblical white name

15:27

that you had to have because the government had

15:29

no interest in learning names Like nombuisello and kosnati

15:32

and like, you know, no matan san. They were

15:34

like, no There's clicks in your names and they're

15:36

like no like I can imagine the apartheid government

15:38

back then They were just like listen, you

15:41

can have your name, but let's be

15:43

civil and choose something that everybody can

15:45

pronounce. Okay So there's

15:47

pops and and clicks in your name. That's not

15:49

gonna work. So they they forced Black

15:52

south africans to have a quote unquote, you

15:54

know, like white name And

15:56

so my mom's name is patricia All

15:59

right But the interesting thing about

16:01

it is like, I think

16:03

like you Josh, my mom was really

16:05

good at code switching on the telephone.

16:09

And so whenever my mom would call for

16:11

a job or for an interview or anything,

16:13

she'd phone as Patricia. And

16:16

then she'd speak on the phone and

16:18

she had like a very professional sounding voice. Even

16:21

with me when I phone my mom, even though

16:23

my name shows up on her phone, she'll answer

16:25

in a very... She'd be like, Patricia speaking good

16:27

afternoon, how can I help you? And I'm

16:29

like, hi mom. And then she's like, hello Pooty. And

16:32

it's like, she's immediately... I'm like, you

16:34

know, it was me all along. She's like, I don't know who's

16:36

calling me. I don't know who's calling me. I'm like, my name

16:38

is there. But I genuinely

16:40

think sometimes maybe

16:42

my family got like 10,

16:45

15, 20% leg up just

16:48

because my mom had a voice that you

16:50

couldn't discern as black on the phone. I

16:54

sometimes think about that. I had no

16:56

chance like Mbakwe. No, Mbakwe is like... You see

16:58

that they're like Nigerian

17:01

credit card fraud. No. She's not

17:03

coming here. Like I just had

17:06

no chance. Yeah, Mbakwe is like

17:08

a full on Mbakwe. Like people

17:10

hear your name and they're like, wait, is

17:12

that like Black Panther? Yeah,

17:14

I never like... My name always

17:16

gives me away, but I think

17:18

we should just reclaim it. That's the

17:20

new thing I'm in. Like I gave Obie

17:22

a very Igbo first name, because I was

17:25

just like, if you're going to be the

17:27

first Igbo president of America, you need to

17:29

have an Igbo first name. Yeah, that was

17:31

how I was dreaming. You went all in on that. Yeah,

17:33

I just think you should... Because the problem is

17:35

with... My name is a problem because like the

17:37

first name is Anglicized and

17:40

the second name is very like

17:42

Nigerian. And I'm just like, that

17:44

throws people off. It makes them

17:46

uncomfortable. Like big aside. Like Josh Johnson

17:48

to me, perfect name. Did you ever know a

17:50

perfect name? Christian Mbakwe, what are we doing? It's

17:53

true. You know what I'm saying? It's true. So I'm

17:55

just like, I'm just going to give him an ethnic

17:58

first name because the names have meaning. And.

18:00

History And I'm just like maybe I'll just have to

18:02

bribe someone to give him a job plate just as

18:04

our school and. So

18:07

you know what you noticed was great about the story

18:09

was. There been

18:11

many studies over the years that have shown

18:13

that there is racial bias in hiring. Pause

18:17

what was interesting but the study was they

18:19

named and shamed the companies involved like since

18:21

the auto dealers as like associational the read

18:24

the retailers and com pots and lot of

18:26

people had mixed emotions about the some people

18:28

like yes good to name and shame them

18:30

and then others are like know it's not

18:32

good to do this because they might be

18:35

no metastasize and those companies will become defend

18:37

our at like I personally I was like

18:39

yeah you should you should name and shame

18:41

them but I don't know a mullet with

18:44

the two of you think about this. Year.

18:46

I mean I think I think naming

18:48

is important because he up the also

18:51

to remember of all the companies that

18:53

there are in in the country you're

18:55

only naming a few. So it's

18:57

not as if you're doing the sweeping thing

18:59

of like we're naming and shaming every single

19:01

one of you and we're coming for you

19:03

sites. I find that the greatest lesson is

19:05

when you do dodged the bullet where you

19:07

we were. the company gets named and you're

19:09

a similar company and now your ideals. That

19:11

could have been Us Sigma So you basically

19:13

saying you you may go, you may go

19:16

an example of them. Just just yeah.

19:18

Is it out as missive? we're talking about

19:20

so few like it's not like this was

19:22

a thing carried out across every company in

19:24

one stays off wants to? You want to

19:26

break corporate kneecaps? that would you want to

19:28

be easy to lose the latest a few

19:30

just go from one you notice every every

19:32

now and then. Yeah I'm know what you're

19:34

capable of. I think that naming is so

19:37

important to you you'll get any movements and

19:39

the if there's some by that like almost

19:41

like a beacon as an example of like

19:43

this is what this movement is after dessert

19:45

type behavior buried them we don't like now.

19:47

You look at you with a of a

19:49

me to and Harvey Weinstein rice is yeah

19:51

air by that look like Harvey Weinstein Now

19:53

Gotta be on their best behavior. Of

19:58

they know what they look like. After

20:01

with their if they're on a beach

20:03

their light let me that do this

20:05

to people let me go ahead and

20:07

put on a song remains Let me

20:09

go ahead nothing but towards your professional

20:12

because you got a name of have

20:14

voice oh wow what do you. What?

20:16

Do you think about the the but was

20:18

not the burden per se but. I

20:21

see it as a joke. And I know

20:23

some people like good really offended even some

20:25

my friends I go you know the like

20:27

all what do we do about this if

20:29

you have a black named companies won't kill

20:31

you in for the interview and then i

20:33

say like i'm like wow old than you

20:35

just put fake names. When the

20:37

people like know Trevor, how dare you even

20:39

suggest the and understand where they're coming from?

20:42

I'll be honest with you. but I sometimes

20:44

wonder if. Winning a

20:46

battle. Is. How

20:50

can I put it? Okay I think of like the

20:52

trojan horse. My story of Detroit trojan Horse. I'm.

20:55

Sure there was some people who like this is dishonorable. We're.

20:57

Going to. Creep. Into the

20:59

belly of a wooden horse. And. Like

21:01

a bunch of cowards to infiltrate the

21:04

city. He didn't do

21:06

mean. Yes, But then the question is,

21:08

what? Like what are we seeking And I. I'm

21:10

not saying you, you can't do both, By the way, But.

21:13

I also wonder if this is a some merit

21:15

in sneaking and like getting the people and if

21:17

you know there's a if you know there's a

21:19

short cut or a hack. To

21:21

circumvent. Racism. should you take it's.

21:25

I think. On the say so

21:27

that that may result in a job

21:29

that my thinking is always been lights

21:32

is the are hostile to my name.

21:34

You're definitely going to be hostile to

21:36

my presence sites you think of anything.

21:38

Yeah, because I think that effect it

21:40

is indicative of something sepa. Like

21:43

their estimates that not afraid of.

21:45

Black name's they're afraid of

21:47

the. Possibility. Of black

21:49

people or foreign nestle otherness. And

21:51

yes, I can never sit. What?

21:54

You wanted like the ideal that you

21:56

have enough company. Right? Like I'll give

21:58

you an example. of like our show.

22:01

A black woman that was hired and

22:03

joined later said during her interview she saw me

22:05

walking past and I had my afro out. It's

22:07

actually in it and Enid was like, oh I

22:09

can work here. Oh that's amazing. Because the girls

22:12

have natural hair and have their afro out. And

22:14

that's a symbol like it's just it's just

22:16

some hair but it sends a message. And

22:19

to me if like if a

22:21

company culture or an institution is just resistant

22:23

to the name like that means how are

22:25

they going to feel when I show up

22:27

with my braids or my natural hair or

22:29

the actual real more quote unquote aggressive

22:31

symbols of blackness. That's not somewhere I would want

22:33

to be but also I know not everyone has

22:35

that choice right. People need jobs Trevor. So this

22:37

is kind of like a very privileged take to

22:40

be like I don't want to work somewhere where

22:42

they don't like afro hair or they don't like

22:44

black women. Other people it's just like I need

22:46

a job and your technique may be the thing

22:48

they need to do. I

22:50

completely agree with this but I also

22:52

sometimes wonder about the value of

22:55

infiltration. Yeah.

23:00

And what I mean what I mean about

23:02

this is like I think sometimes we take for

23:04

granted and you know you and I we always

23:06

have these discussions. I'm an eternal optimist and

23:08

I know it's a utopian idea

23:10

and I know that it doesn't always pan out but

23:12

like I think there's something magical

23:15

that happens to human beings when they come

23:17

into contact with other human beings who

23:20

give them a real idea of

23:22

what just one facet of

23:25

that group of people could be like. Yeah.

23:27

I mean that's been most of my

23:30

experiences mostly because of my name I

23:32

really do believe is that like I've

23:34

definitely had jobs where I looked around

23:36

and I was like the only black

23:38

person and I've

23:40

definitely shown up to places where people

23:43

are like you're Josh and I'm like

23:45

yeah and they're like oh okay. Like

23:47

it's a thing that happens that I'm

23:50

not saying I was like intentionally trying

23:52

to infiltrate. I've never like hidden who

23:54

I am or anything but you know

23:57

you go back to the analogy of

23:59

the Trojans. horse and what city burned

24:01

that night? You

24:06

slip in with that horse and you got it.

24:09

You killing the game now. Oh,

24:12

wow. Oh, man. Alright,

24:16

let's take a quick break. When

24:19

we come back, let's jump into

24:21

some of the bigger topics of

24:23

the week that have really gotten

24:25

people talking. Like ask

24:27

ourselves a question. Can

24:29

we have the conversations in

24:32

society? Are we equipped to have the conversation

24:34

necessary to deal with some

24:36

of the more difficult issues

24:38

that society is facing? My

24:42

thought is Josh

24:44

will figure it out. Oh, uh-oh.

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27:09

this story is a story

27:12

that, you know, is terrible and

27:16

has now left many of

27:18

the people involved

27:20

directly or indirectly asking questions

27:25

about where society is headed, and

27:27

particularly young men. But before

27:29

we get into discussing it, I mean, let's try

27:31

and get everybody on the same page. So, there

27:34

was a story that came out of Sydney,

27:36

Australia where

27:40

a young man went into

27:42

a shopping mall and

27:44

just went on a stabbing rampage is

27:46

the best way to put it. Like,

27:49

chased after people in the mall, tried

27:51

to stab as many people as possible, stabbed

27:53

six people to death, and then

27:56

I think injured more than a dozen. And,

27:58

you know, the police... came in, they

28:00

shot the kid dead and

28:04

immediately obviously the press went to

28:06

the dad's house and

28:09

they wanted to know, they're like, hey, do you know why

28:11

your son would go and kill a

28:13

bunch of strangers? And it's

28:15

one of the saddest videos you'll ever see because there's

28:17

this Australian man, he's standing outside his house and

28:20

he's addressing the crowd in a way that

28:22

I've seen very few parents address a crowd

28:24

when their child has been involved in something this

28:27

terrible. And he says to them, he

28:29

says, and I paraphrase, he says, I know

28:32

to you he's a monster, but

28:35

to me he's my son and I'm

28:38

loving a monster, I love my son. To

28:40

you he's a monster, but to me he was a very sick

28:43

boy. And then the

28:45

dad goes on to say, they say, do you know why he

28:47

would have done this? And he says, yeah, I do know why

28:49

he would have done this. And he's like, because he wanted a

28:51

girlfriend and he's really

28:53

frustrated and he has no social

28:55

skills. And then he talks

28:57

about his son's mental health and he says, when I

29:00

found out my son had mental health issues, I dedicated

29:02

everybody to serving him and I wanted to help him

29:04

as much as I could. But,

29:06

you know, my son moved away and he

29:08

says, and then I couldn't help him the way I wanted

29:10

to. And then, you know,

29:13

this happened in Sydney. And

29:16

I think the reason the story is so

29:19

interesting is because where

29:21

most times we can focus on the gun, which

29:23

I think is necessary because the tool that people

29:25

can use to do bad things should also be

29:27

limited so that the effect of the bad things

29:29

can be minimized. This

29:32

conversation I find was a

29:34

lot clearer and a lot more difficult and a lot

29:36

more painful because it made us ask

29:38

the question, is

29:40

there an epidemic amongst young men who feel

29:43

that they

29:45

cannot get with a

29:47

woman, do not have a girlfriend, do

29:50

not find themselves in loving relationships, are

29:52

socially awkward, do not know how to connect with

29:55

people of the opposite sex? And

29:57

have we created a culture that I think is a very important part

29:59

of the conversation? them and

30:01

is the internet the perfect

30:05

fertilizer that grows them into angry

30:07

men who believe the world has

30:09

done them wrong. It's

30:11

interesting, Christiana and Josh, you

30:13

are two of the people who I think have some

30:15

of the most thoughtful ideas

30:17

on this topic because we've spoken about it

30:20

for years. But

30:22

I wonder, Christiana, when you first saw

30:24

the story, what

30:26

were some of your thoughts? I mean,

30:28

the fact that five out of the

30:30

six people that were killed were

30:33

women was something I thought about a lot. One

30:35

of them was a mother who

30:37

protected her nine-month-old daughter who we

30:39

also stabbed. The

30:42

particular details were very horrifying.

30:45

The police were immediately like, it's not

30:47

terrorism, but I do believe it was

30:50

an act of terrorism against women specifically

30:52

and don't often think about misogyny

30:54

and the violent results of that as

30:56

a form of terrorism. I

30:59

felt like I'm at a unique intersection, not just being

31:01

a woman, but like a mother of a boy. It

31:04

was actually Trevor and I have a friend

31:06

and Josh called Joe Opeo. He

31:09

was my office mate. When he found out

31:11

I was pregnant with a boy, he

31:13

said, Christiana, you're raising a nuclear weapon.

31:16

He was like, don't

31:18

take your eye off the board. Oh,

31:20

man. That sounds like Joe. Yeah. It

31:23

was something that I always think about when I look

31:25

at my son and how sweet and

31:27

loving and caring he is. I think a

31:29

lot of boys lose that as they grow.

31:32

I think that lack of emotion only continues

31:34

into adulthood. It's something I really do think

31:36

about. I do think

31:38

that there is a crisis of masculinity

31:41

and I think that women are bearing the

31:43

brunt of that crisis. I

31:47

actually don't know what the solution is. There's

31:50

so many men that sit at home on their

31:52

computers all day. They actually don't have

31:55

male friends, like a male community that

31:57

they physically can see and

31:59

they just arrive at home. in these dark places of

32:01

the internet because that's the only place that they can

32:03

be seen and what's being seen

32:05

is their anger and hurt and that's what they

32:07

just lean into. So

32:10

yeah, you know, I often wonder and I

32:12

know this is like a crazy thing to

32:14

say sometimes and I don't think

32:16

that I can articulate it perfectly

32:18

but I think it's worth speaking about

32:20

nonetheless. We

32:22

never consider the

32:25

ramifications of moving from

32:27

one system to another rapidly.

32:29

You know, we used to live in a world where

32:32

men would get a woman. Just think about that for

32:34

a second. Men would just get a

32:36

woman. Families would just go,

32:38

my boy, I have found you a young lady

32:40

and she's from the house of Heatherton and she

32:42

will be a wife and you just had a

32:45

wife. There's some cultures in the world that still do

32:47

that. You are a boy, you become

32:49

old enough and you get a

32:52

wife. It is done, it's there for you,

32:54

right? We've lived

32:56

in a world where for a long time just

32:58

being a man meant that you had a job

33:00

because women were excluded from the workplace and so

33:03

the only people you were competing with were other

33:05

men. And when you look at all the changes

33:07

we've made, very positive by the way, very positive

33:10

changes we've made, I don't think

33:12

we've considered the ramifications of some of those changes

33:15

and how they've affected men who

33:18

now find themselves living a meaningless

33:20

existence. Because we say job but

33:23

really, job is just purpose,

33:25

it's just meaning. I don't

33:27

know if either of you have thought about this,

33:29

it's just like how

33:31

do we give somebody a purpose that maybe

33:33

isn't a job or is there even

33:35

a way to do that? I mean, I

33:38

can't speak to the actual way but

33:40

based on what you're saying

33:42

of purpose is no

33:45

one needs any man

33:47

in an American society, right, to be

33:49

the old version of how men need

33:51

it to be. Our bodies

33:53

though don't know what year it is and

33:56

so the fact that there's no real war that you

33:58

need to go fight and not war. is in

34:00

as if we're not at war because as Americans we

34:02

stay at war. We just do war over there. But

34:07

we don't need to be at war.

34:09

We don't need to struggle the way

34:11

that all of the built-up like hormones

34:13

and testosterone in the body are telling

34:15

you to struggle. We also don't need

34:19

procreation in the same way. Like

34:21

now marriages are mostly

34:23

love marriages and people

34:26

are very intentional about how many kids that

34:28

they have. And I think that some

34:30

of what we're seeing on a level

34:32

that affects all men because incel is

34:34

like not just a white male

34:37

thing or a white male attitude. It's something

34:39

that I think affects a whole swath of

34:41

young men. And I think that sometimes rightly

34:43

so I'm not saying this is bad but

34:46

they're sometimes being chastised to about a world

34:48

that they are not taking part in in

34:50

the same way. So a lot of times

34:52

when people take the

34:54

world to task all the men that

34:57

you're mad at already won. So

34:59

you're right. I've had feminist

35:02

friends talk to me about why we're so

35:04

screwed up and the men that did and

35:06

everything. I'm like yes you're right about that.

35:08

But who you're talking about is a senator

35:10

right now. They're not the dog walker that's

35:12

20 years old. That's interesting. And

35:15

this is not to make literally to not

35:17

make excuses. It's to try to find

35:19

somewhere in the conversation that is a

35:22

through line and a path through to

35:24

speak to men about what it is

35:26

about being a man that still matters

35:28

without getting into like the androotateness of

35:30

the world because then that's the last

35:32

piece of the puzzle that's the problem.

35:34

No. You know it's funny. I completely

35:36

agree with you and I think so.

35:39

So this is the thing I think we

35:41

struggle with in society sometimes. If

35:44

there is a group of people regardless of who they are. If there

35:46

are a group of people who

35:48

feel left behind who feel

35:50

disconnected as

35:52

society you can make the

35:55

mistake of thinking that those people have

35:57

no bearing on the rest of society.

36:00

But time and time again, we've learned that

36:02

those people at some point coalesce.

36:05

And oftentimes the coalescing takes

36:08

place at the behest

36:10

or like, you know, under the

36:12

guidance of somebody who's like wielding

36:14

that pain for good. You

36:16

can go through history and you can see it time and

36:18

time and time and time again. And

36:21

I think that's like a crucial, crucial thing for

36:23

us to think about in society. And

36:25

if you apply that back to the world

36:27

of men, young men who are angry, sometimes

36:30

these young men aren't supporting

36:33

people like Andrew Tate and chasing

36:35

after these internet, you know, influences

36:37

who are misogynistic. They aren't going

36:39

with them because they necessarily

36:41

think they'll make their lives better. They

36:44

relish in the fact that those

36:46

people are actively making women's lives

36:48

or successful men's lives or

36:50

who are making their lives worse. Do

36:53

you know what I mean? Yeah. Oh

36:56

my God, I could speak about this all day because

36:58

I've read a lot about it. By

37:00

the way, for those who don't know, you know, because

37:02

I didn't know when these topics first came up, Incel

37:05

is the name given to a

37:07

group of young men who

37:10

some have called themselves this and it's

37:12

become a group thing. But really the

37:14

full term is involuntarily syllabates. That's

37:17

what Incel really is, right? The

37:20

funny thing is that feminists care a lot about this.

37:22

I know there's this idea that feminists

37:25

completely hate Incels and talk down to

37:27

them, but a lot of feminist theory

37:29

in modern days trying to address this

37:31

need because we don't want these men

37:33

to kill us. So it's like self-interest. There's

37:35

that. Yeah. Josh, you spoke

37:38

about kind of like this very

37:40

primal and primordial urge men have

37:42

to dominate. Just testosterone, you have

37:44

to do something without energy. What

37:47

these feminist scholars talk about a lot is

37:49

the fact that unfortunately men aren't prepared for

37:51

the information age we're in, where it's all

37:53

about intellect. It's not about brute strength. Like

37:55

the men who have made it who are

37:57

at the top of the totem pole. They're

38:00

like the nerds, right? It's the age

38:02

of the nerd. Yeah. Yeah. It's like

38:04

Mark Zuckerberg. It's Jack Dorsey. Like men

38:06

aren't prepared for this new world where

38:09

it's like, we don't care if you

38:11

can lift 200 pounds. We

38:13

do care if you can code and use

38:15

your mind in a very abstract way. Yeah,

38:17

exactly. Cause like a Tom Hardy, Ooh, he

38:20

is very lucky he can act. But

38:26

you know, you know, to that point, Christiana, it's, I

38:28

think it's like a combination of what you

38:31

and Josh are saying, I think on the

38:33

one hand, yes, it's talking about preparing men

38:35

for a world where it isn't all about

38:37

their strength. But I also think we take

38:39

for granted the fact that we are still

38:41

animals. Yeah. So for instance, you look at

38:43

schools and how much they've

38:45

pulled back on physical activity. Oh, cool.

38:47

And I often think to myself, what

38:50

was the value of me as a

38:52

child having lessons in school where the

38:54

lesson was I have to run around

38:56

and chase other kids and catch a

38:58

ball and, and like wrestle other children.

39:01

It seems so stupid and

39:03

yet it's like functionally part of you

39:05

being viewed. You know what I'm saying?

39:07

Exactly. It's like even down to the

39:10

way that we would train a dog,

39:12

right? You want a puppy to be

39:14

around other puppies and to wrestle and

39:16

to learn how to nibble on them

39:18

because a puppy who is bit and

39:20

been bit by other puppies who are

39:22

teething becomes a dog that

39:24

knows how to gently nibble when you

39:26

go to feed it. Yeah. Also,

39:29

I've been like taking notes and stuff. I'm

39:31

such a nerd. But I, so, you know,

39:34

the dad said something. He was just like,

39:36

he just wanted a girlfriend. And, you

39:38

know, the discussion around that is very

39:40

controversial, right? Because he

39:42

was so heartbroken by it and he was just speaking off the

39:45

cuff. Like the feminist woman

39:47

is part of me is just like, no

39:49

man is entitled to a girlfriend, like no

39:51

man is entitled to a wife. But

39:53

it's really interesting if you read

39:55

about like the Tinder studies and

39:57

I'm I'm watching what the statistics.

40:00

are. But it's basically like 10%

40:02

of men match to 80% of

40:04

women. So basically women have a particular type.

40:07

Oh, you're going to get into something. You're

40:09

going to get into a topic that I

40:11

love. No, I love this. Keep going. Even

40:13

when we're talking about sex, when we talk

40:15

about quote unquote, body counts, a huge percentage

40:17

of women sleep with a small percentage

40:19

of men. That's just the reality. A

40:21

lot of men cannot and do not

40:24

get laid. Now we can discuss why

40:26

that is, but we should acknowledge that

40:28

there are implications to that about how

40:30

these men feel about women, about the

40:32

world and about themselves. And

40:34

Trevor, you mentioned earlier about like the arranged

40:36

marriage. And I think very much in like

40:38

an African system. I remember my first visit

40:41

to the village when I was like 13

40:43

years old. And there was one

40:45

of my dad's cousins, he's sadly dead now,

40:47

but he was deaf, but he had a

40:49

wife. And I remember saying to my mum,

40:53

like, remind you in Nigeria, you have to

40:55

understand it was just like, it wasn't like

40:57

this evolved thinking about deafness and disability. It's

41:00

a very ableist culture. And my parents said,

41:02

of course he has a wife, they find

41:04

a woman for him. I was like,

41:06

oh, I wonder how did he date? Because like he

41:09

struggled with language and stuff like that. I'm sure

41:11

if he was in the West, he probably would

41:13

have got the right therapy and maybe been able to

41:15

speak. And like, my mum and dad were like, no, in

41:17

our culture, we believe everyone deserves a wife. And as

41:20

problematic as there is, and we can discuss

41:22

that on a different level, the thing about

41:24

arranged marriages, it meant that like, nobody

41:27

was alone, right? It meant that

41:29

everyone was considered worthy of companionship

41:31

and partnership. But now we have

41:33

this world where women for themselves,

41:35

because they have the right to

41:37

are deciding who is worthy. And

41:39

it's a very small slither of

41:41

people who are seen as worthy

41:44

and the rest of the men

41:46

essentially feel thrown away. I really

41:49

don't know, but the statistics do show that

41:51

like, and I'm a very

41:53

picky woman, like, if my husband dies, that's it.

41:55

I'm not marrying anyone else. I'm done. man

42:00

for me but it's just like a lot of

42:02

men can actually not be

42:04

in relationship with women. We'll

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43:31

okay so this is it's

43:34

funny that all three of us have been

43:36

obsessed with this topic but like have focused

43:38

on a specific area of it you know

43:40

on its own whilst overlapping with the other

43:43

ones in the Venn diagram. So

43:46

I've thought about this topic as

43:48

it pertains to globalization specifically so you

43:50

know me I love tech I love

43:52

love love technology and the

43:54

thing I'm constantly thinking about with technology is

43:57

what are the benefits of technology and then what

44:00

of the downsides that we neglect to think

44:02

about when we're thinking about the benefits. So

44:04

I think of this issue as

44:06

a tech slash transport

44:08

slash globalization slash everything issue that we

44:11

haven't considered. I don't know if you've

44:13

ever looked at a chart of

44:16

technology and how much it has evolved

44:18

in the history of humankind. But

44:21

if you if you look at it, from like,

44:23

let's say this point to this point, let's say this is the

44:25

beginning where human being started. And this is

44:27

where we are today, right? So

44:29

this is 2024. And this is like, whatever

44:31

100,000 years ago, almost

44:33

all technology is here. I'm

44:36

talking like cars, phones,

44:39

you know, trains, you know, blah, blah,

44:41

blah, blah, but then human beings started

44:43

here, right. And what

44:45

I think about when I look at this at this

44:47

gap is I go, the one

44:50

thing we have to acknowledge about technology is

44:52

that it is able to evolve faster than

44:55

we as humans actually can. Now

44:57

extrapolate that Christiana to what you were saying about

44:59

men and women. We do

45:01

know the downside, as you said, the downside of

45:03

living in a society where we give women to

45:06

men, is that while it may

45:08

be great for the men in that they

45:10

don't have to like look for women, many

45:12

women were in abusive relationships, many women were

45:14

trapped many women were prisoners. And so in

45:16

a way, we were putting the burden of,

45:18

you know, men's frustration on women. But the

45:20

thing we, I think we've taken for

45:22

granted that we never considered to your point with, you know,

45:24

80% of the women dating 10% of the men,

45:28

we never considered how,

45:31

like the limitations of choice, sort

45:34

of made everything work out

45:36

for people. But I think

45:38

what we've just taken for granted right now is these

45:41

technologies have funneled people in

45:43

unnatural ways. So

45:45

to your point, on an app, and

45:47

I know this from personal experience, I've been on a

45:49

dating app, where I am in

45:51

New York City, that's where I am. And I

45:53

tell the app, I'm in New York City, no

45:55

joke, the app will be like, look

45:58

at this lady in Thailand.

46:02

Now as Trevor, I would have never considered this lady

46:04

in Thailand. I didn't even think about dating somebody in

46:06

Thailand, but it's like, hey, what about this lady in

46:08

Thailand? And then I'm

46:11

like, I mean, maybe she looks like

46:13

a lovely lady and it's like, link.

46:15

But now, do you get what I'm

46:18

saying? It's created like a weird, it's

46:20

an artificial connection that has like robbed

46:22

society of its ability to balance itself

46:24

out. People sit online all

46:27

day and see people that they think they

46:29

can date when in fact they cannot, but

46:31

that affects their ability to choose people who

46:33

they actually can date. And so you

46:35

live in a perpetual cycle of, I should be, I could

46:37

be, I would be, and so I'm not. Also,

46:40

can I just say, the men are doing the

46:42

same thing, by the way. I know

46:44

plenty of women who are like, I'm struggling to

46:46

meet men because they see me and I'm a

46:49

normal person. I don't have a face full of

46:51

Botox and filler, which is completely fine. I'll probably

46:53

get there myself one day, but they're like, these

46:55

men see me and I'm not good enough. You

46:59

know, so we're all living in a world where

47:01

we're strangely not good enough for each other because

47:03

we've been exposed to a few that

47:06

nobody can actually get. Yeah, like

47:09

I think to what Christian said, I do

47:11

think just because I have

47:13

had experiences with friends and like you've

47:15

even mentioned Trevor, I'm like on the

47:17

internet in a very particular way and

47:19

have been since I was a teenager.

47:22

So I've made friends that I still

47:24

have never met in person. And

47:27

I've watched the change in some people that

47:29

were maybe gonna go down that route and

47:31

then veered off of it because they made

47:34

a connection with someone. So

47:36

it's not lost on me everything that Christian

47:38

is saying because I think it is right

47:41

and it is representative of a good portion

47:43

of these people, right? So as far as

47:45

the entitlement, I do think that

47:47

there are two things that, and these,

47:49

look, I will not be

47:52

offended if you need to cut this because

47:54

I would be heartbroken if somebody mistook my

47:56

words right now. But I

47:58

think in a way where if you... cannot find

48:00

and this actually applies to both men and

48:02

women so maybe I'm covered. But if you

48:04

cannot find a romantic partner in your life,

48:06

it is seen as a fault and a

48:08

failing on you and there's something wrong with

48:11

you whereas the most important relationships you'll ever

48:13

have in your life are relationship

48:15

with your parents, relationship with a romantic partner and

48:17

the relationship with your friends. And

48:20

I think that we need to start looking

48:22

at all these three relationships as things that

48:24

are not directly in a person's control at

48:26

all times because if you saw an orphan,

48:29

you wouldn't be like, you must suck because

48:31

you don't have parents. What

48:34

vibes were you putting out as a baby to make

48:36

two people leave? Wow. You know

48:38

what I mean? In earnest, yes, there

48:40

are a lot of guys that are exactly what

48:42

you two are talking about where it's like they

48:45

are the dude that doesn't work out but has

48:47

all of the comments ready on women's bodies and

48:49

stuff. And then there are people

48:51

that I promise you whether it's something

48:54

on the mental side, something

48:56

on the social anxiety side, something even

48:58

in the opportunity side of things, have

49:00

not been able to make those connections

49:02

that I think do need

49:04

a bit more of a compassionate mindset

49:08

in that let's

49:10

really figure out the story of why this

49:12

person has not

49:15

found anyone but I think that the

49:17

not having found it yet being a

49:19

strike against you only hurts

49:21

the confidence, only increases the anxiety

49:23

and only ostracizes a person more

49:27

from doing that thing. Josh, I'm

49:29

glad you say that because I think

49:32

about you a lot because you were one

49:34

of the first people that

49:37

made me have compassion

49:39

for incels. In a way, I

49:41

would be humanizing them. Not

49:44

because you are an incel. Until

49:47

I met you, Josh. I didn't

49:49

understand incels. You could have gone down there.

49:51

No, no, no. I think, Josh, what

49:53

you did is a thing that I

49:56

can do in my self-righteousness aside of

49:58

myself that is not good. that

50:00

when I disagree with someone's moral position,

50:02

I actually dehumanize them and

50:05

I treat them like an author and I dismiss

50:07

them. And you are

50:09

one of the first people that was able

50:11

to discuss in-sale culture in a really nuanced

50:13

way and talk about like the profound sense

50:16

of like male isolation, you helped me understand

50:18

that. And I appreciate you for it, especially

50:20

now I'm raising a boy because

50:23

I think like my son is similar to my

50:25

husband is similar to my father. I think naturally

50:27

he's kind of like a loner, he wants to

50:30

be by himself, so we have to always pull

50:32

him in to being with us and being with

50:34

friends. And I think that

50:37

a lot of people think the

50:39

salve to in-sale culture is these

50:41

men perhaps having girlfriends and being

50:43

entitled to, I actually think these

50:46

are men that lack community and

50:48

we are very okay with men not

50:50

having community. So

50:52

I think a lot of these men actually

50:55

need a community of other men that's

50:57

not online, they're just gonna radicalize

50:59

them. They actually need friends because

51:01

I don't think your joy and

51:03

fulfillment in life should hinge on whether

51:06

you have a romantic partner or not.

51:08

And I think it's actually so sad that

51:10

so many men do think that

51:12

this is where their true value can

51:14

be found because they have so

51:16

much to offer beyond that. So I do

51:18

actually have compassion for them. And

51:20

I do think, I agree with you that when

51:23

we see a man who is single and chronically

51:25

single, society puts a strike

51:27

against him in a certain way that

51:29

I think those men absorb that pain.

51:32

And my sadness is that women,

51:34

we bear the brunt of that. And as a

51:36

woman, I do feel afraid of

51:38

men because especially since the pandemic where

51:41

a lot of men were socially distancing

51:43

all alone, they were by themselves for

51:45

over a year, no one came over.

51:47

You know what I mean? They were

51:49

just by themselves. And then

51:51

one of the big questions is how

51:54

much does society,

51:56

you know, to Josh, what you were saying about like

51:58

the baby, how much does... society bear

52:00

the blame. And I

52:02

wouldn't dare to blame the people who were

52:05

attacked in what happened in Australia. I would

52:07

never say that and please don't misconstrue it

52:09

that way. But one of the more interesting things

52:11

that we've noticed in the last few

52:13

months was the parents

52:16

of the shooter in the

52:18

US. They were sentenced

52:20

to 10 to 15 years in prison each

52:22

found guilty of manslaughter because

52:25

of their actions surrounding

52:27

their child. And

52:30

that made me wonder, I was like,

52:32

well, what are we saying in society? Are we saying that

52:35

parents are responsible for the actions of their children?

52:37

Or are we saying all people are responsible for

52:39

the actions of the people around them? And

52:42

you know, Josh, I know you've thought about this.

52:44

I know you, you know, I know we constantly

52:47

hope to find solutions. But before we wrap

52:49

up, I just wondered if there

52:51

was like one, one thing you could

52:53

change like magic wand. And

52:56

I mean, other than and I mean, like

52:58

realistic magic wand, not like inventing people who love

53:00

you, which would be magical, will

53:03

be great. That's what we need to invent a dating app

53:05

that just actually connects you to people who like you for

53:07

who you are. What

53:09

would you change Josh? What's one thing you think

53:12

you would change that would have an outsized impact

53:14

in this world that would not

53:16

just benefit men, but as Christiana says benefit women?

53:20

I like as much

53:22

of a maybe non answer after the

53:24

conversation we've had, it might feel is

53:28

a prioritization above anything else, even

53:31

even for your parents as they're

53:33

raising you of community. I think

53:36

that so much of how we

53:38

get raised as people is like, you be

53:40

a good person, you get a good job,

53:42

you mean, whereas like, if I was a

53:44

parent, at least right now, looking

53:46

at the world the way it is, and as chronically

53:48

online as I am, if I had a kid, I'd be

53:50

like, find your people

53:53

above all else, because your people will take

53:55

care of you, your people will let you

53:57

know when you're going off on the wrong

53:59

path. Your people will you I

54:01

mean like you surround a person with nothing

54:03

but good people they almost in a weird

54:06

way They almost can't do too

54:08

much wrong in a sense. I think good.

54:10

Yeah good being the Yes,

54:12

the problem is people are finding the communities who

54:14

do the opposites. Yeah. Yes, exactly.

54:16

I like that actually I

54:19

like that Christiana as

54:21

a as as the mother

54:23

of a potential nuclear weapon I

54:26

can't believe Joe said that to you when you

54:28

were pregnant. I know Joe is a legend One

54:31

day we must get him on the podcast so he can terrify everyone. We

54:33

need to get him on yeah, right I

54:36

think it would create a society

54:38

where we raised our boys to be

54:40

more vulnerable and What

54:42

we welcome their vulnerability where we didn't tell

54:44

their molds. You'd be tough Don't

54:47

cry and all of that stuff Because

54:49

at the core of all of these

54:51

in cells these people that kill and

54:53

even rape and do these really horrible

54:55

things We know it's about power. That's

54:58

what they crave that they crave power and

55:00

I think they they crave power because they're

55:02

scared right and They're

55:04

afraid to say they're scared. So they

55:06

do these very violent and debase things.

55:09

But if we're raising boys Particularly

55:11

in their teenage years and be like, oh,

55:14

it's okay to cry. It's okay

55:16

to say you're sad It's okay to

55:18

say you're depressed It would be better

55:20

for all of us because then that

55:22

man can say hey, I'm scared Rather

55:25

than being ashamed of that fear and

55:27

going out and being violent to prove

55:29

he's super macho I'm a scared person

55:31

that that's what I would probably do.

55:33

Yeah, I I like both of those You

55:38

know as we as we move to to wrap this

55:40

up and I say wrap this up with a with

55:42

a tiny little asterisk I think we

55:44

should try and and and have a series

55:46

of episodes on the podcast Where

55:49

we delve into this one topic because I think at

55:51

the hearts of it honestly, and that's why I come

55:53

back to church. I You

55:55

should never take for granted the value of

55:57

feeling seen just

56:00

feeling like you are seen. And

56:02

there was something magical for me, at least I don't know about for

56:05

you, but for me growing up, there

56:07

was something magical about this church place where you

56:10

just, you were seen, you know, kids went

56:12

to a Sunday school, adults went

56:15

to the main church, Jesus

56:17

was for everyone, people came in nice cars

56:19

and trash cars and, and

56:21

while there are many downsides to, you know, what

56:23

people have used religion for, I

56:25

wish we would, we could find a

56:27

way to continuously create the

56:30

community of church that just helps people be

56:32

seen regardless of where they are in the

56:34

world and in their lives. Oh

56:36

my god, Trevor, you sound like my mom, she

56:38

literally called me like two hours ago,

56:40

like when are you gonna find a church? This

56:45

was really great. And you know,

56:48

I know it's weird to say this

56:51

sometimes, but I, if anybody listens to

56:53

this and feels like they're not seen

56:55

or they're struggling, I

56:58

will tell you as somebody who lived a lot of my

57:00

life alone, you know,

57:02

similar to Josh, that it's

57:05

strangely, how

57:07

can I put it? Although

57:10

you may be alone in many

57:12

moments, you'll be shocked at how many

57:15

people are having the exact same experience that you're having.

57:18

And if you use

57:20

the tools that are at

57:22

your disposal, you'll be shocked at how you

57:24

can connect with those people

57:27

and find the things that make you feel

57:29

less alone. For me, it was

57:31

technology, it was video games, and

57:33

then it was music and DJing,

57:35

and then some of my best friends now

57:37

come from playing soccer, you know,

57:39

just a pickup game, found a few guys in

57:42

a park, kicked a ball

57:44

with them. And now we've traveled the

57:46

world together and we're best friends. You

57:48

know, we've been robbed of that online, I think

57:50

we've been told that the likes and the follows

57:52

are the real things. But

57:55

I think we should never take for granted

57:57

the value of going out doing something.

58:00

and finding the people who want to do that thing with

58:02

you. And I think that makes you feel good. And we

58:04

know the difference. So yeah,

58:07

this was a really good conversation. I hope

58:09

we do more of it and hopefully

58:11

not only in the wake of like a

58:14

tragedy that's happened somewhere in the world. Yeah,

58:16

for sure. This was great. What

58:34

Now with Trevor Noah is produced by

58:36

Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero

58:39

Productions and Fullwell 73. The

58:41

show is executive produced by Trevor

58:43

Noah, Ben Winston, Sanaz Yaman and

58:46

Jody Abigail. Our senior producer is

58:48

Jess Hackle. Marina Henke is our

58:50

producer. Music, mixing and

58:52

mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank

58:54

you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for

58:56

another episode of What Now.