0:00

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CPAP mask is clamped tightly

0:04

to your face. You will not toss and

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turn through the whooshing. You will not

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throw the mask. It's

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not working, Harold. People who

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struggle with CPAP have partners who struggle

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too. Luckily, now there's Inspire.

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0:18

When I snap my fingers, you will remember

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you and review important safety information at inspiresleep.com.

0:31

This is a crowd

0:33

podcast. We

0:36

didn't start the fire. The only

0:38

podcast started by me, Billy

0:40

Joel.

0:47

Wheel of fortune, Sally Ride, heavy metal

0:49

suicide, foreign debts, homeless vets,

0:51

AIDS, crack, Bernigettes, hypodermics

0:54

on the shore, China's under martial law,

0:56

rock and roll, a cooler wash, I can't

0:58

take it anymore. Well,

1:00

actually, I can take it. One more episode, Katie. Okay,

1:03

I can do it. Hello and welcome

1:05

to episode 120 of We Didn't Start the Fire. I

1:08

pause here. Katie, drumroll, please. Because,

1:13

Katie, as it stands, this

1:15

is currently our final ever episode

1:18

of the podcast. That is a number one song,

1:20

that's a skip and a trip around

1:22

the story of the post-war world.

1:25

Katie, our guru has been Billy Joel.

1:27

Our mission has been to feed our heads. Yes. And

1:30

our pledge has been that together

1:31

we will learn without ever feeling like

1:34

we're ever really learning. I am Tom

1:36

Fordyce. I'm

1:37

still Katie Puckrik. Katie,

1:40

shall we toast our lobes one more time

1:42

around the fire? Oh, I feel so sad.

1:44

I mean, this topic

1:47

today, rock and roll, a cola wars,

1:49

I'm not sure if it has the kind of gravitas

1:53

of, you know, China's

1:56

under martial law.

1:57

Or an Eisenhower. AIDS.

2:00

Moon Shot. It sort

2:03

of reminds me of like, this is

2:05

how we're going out. We're

2:07

discussing some advertising strategy of soft

2:09

drinks. And

2:13

it reminds me a little bit of the time that I thought I was

2:15

going to die in Crete on

2:18

holiday. And I felt like this was such a

2:20

silly way to go. I was caught in a Riptide. And

2:22

I just thought this is a little pathetic. And

2:24

I felt a little shy about waving

2:27

to my friends on the beach. And I was about to

2:29

just submit to The Inevitable

2:31

Death when I finally found

2:33

a little sort of a life, a literal lifeline.

2:36

And I crawled my way into the shore.

2:39

But what I mean is, it just seems like

2:41

after this big buildup, is that all there

2:43

is? We're just going

2:46

to end on a damp squib. But

2:48

I bet it's not a damp squib. Never

2:50

is a damp squib with us, Katie. And I think when I

2:52

first looked at this line, I was like, is this one lyric?

2:54

Is it two? Is Rock

2:56

and Roll about a film, which

2:58

it can't be, because that came out much later? And

3:01

then we've done a little bit of research. And it

3:03

is Pepsi against Coke. And

3:06

it is weaponizing the big stars

3:08

of the

3:08

day. It's weaponizing the big stars

3:10

of the day. And after feeling a little

3:12

meh about the topic, I'm now actually

3:15

very invested. One thing

3:17

is, Tom, I

3:18

realized I don't

3:20

really know the difference between Coke and

3:22

Pepsi. Well, you have

3:25

a treat in store, Katie. Because our beloved

3:27

producer, Fion, has put two

3:29

different glasses of dark, fizzy liquid in

3:31

front of both of us. Because

3:33

I believe, Fion, we're about to try our very

3:35

own Pepsi challenge.

3:37

OK, so I'm reaching for the glass on

3:39

my left. OK, I don't know if Fion has mixed

3:41

this up. I will also go for the glass on my

3:43

left. I'm going to give it a quick nose. OK. Instantly

3:48

takes me back to being nine years old at my granny's.

3:50

It smells like cleaning. Is it last time I had

3:52

one of these beverages?

3:53

It's like a cleaning fluid, I can also. That's

3:55

so fizzy. It's so sweet.

3:58

It sort of has sort of. a distinct

4:00

flavor of nothingness. Like, I don't

4:02

really know how you'd characterize it. It disappears on your tongue

4:05

very quickly, doesn't it? OK, maybe. Number

4:07

two. So this is simply which one we prefer? I think

4:09

I like the one on the right more. They're

4:12

both sweet. I think I know the difference as well, even

4:14

though I've drunk neither for the first two years. It's

4:16

a little more flaccid somehow.

4:19

And the one on the right has a little

4:22

more body to it. So they're

4:24

both similar.

4:27

But I do prefer the one on the right. And do

4:29

we know which is which?

4:30

So you're going right. I'm going right. I

4:32

am saying left, Fion. Which

4:35

way has this gone? So before I tell you,

4:37

which one do you think is Pepsi versus

4:39

Coke? I think Pepsi is right-hand side, and I think Coke

4:42

is left. I think that Pepsi

4:44

is on the left-hand side, and I think Coke is on

4:46

the right-hand side. Can

4:48

Fion remember? Remember! OK,

4:52

so Tommy, you picked? Coke on the left, Pepsi

4:54

on the right. I prefer the one on the left. You are

4:56

correct. Apparently,

4:59

I love Pepsi. Pepsi. Oh, I picked

5:01

the one on the right. Yeah, that is your Pepsi.

5:03

Oh, I like Pepsi. Which one did you think that was Pepsi?

5:06

I thought it was Coke. Wait, let me double check.

5:08

The one on the right. The one on

5:10

the right has more bubbles. I'll be able to taste it. I'll

5:13

be able to taste it. I think that's Pepsi.

5:15

Let me try that one. OK. So that's

5:17

the one on the right-hand side. You know, this is like when you say a word

5:20

over and over and over again, and it loses all meaning.

5:23

That's the Coke. Oh, I like Pepsi. I think

5:25

the error I made was your big

5:27

glass was Pepsi. I thought that was deliberate.

5:30

Yeah, and your big glass was Coke. But

5:32

then I think you drank so much of your Pepsi

5:35

that it's down on the glass. But

5:37

you like Pepsi. You like Coke. Well, you know what?

5:40

The Pepsi challenge. I took it, and

5:42

Pepsi and I triumphed.

5:44

And overall, for we didn't start the fire, Katie,

5:46

it's a score draw. Does this mean I'm going to have to fight you on

5:48

the street, Tom Fordyce? I think so with fists. It's

5:52

going to get ugly. It's going to get very ugly. So

5:54

let's bring in an expert on this

5:57

matter. This is the Rock and Roll of Color

5:59

Wars. And.

5:59

And to be the referee, we

6:02

have wheeled in the director at

6:04

Columbia Business School Center on

6:06

Global Brand Leadership. He is

6:09

Matthew Quint. Welcome. Thank

6:12

you, Katie. Thank you, Tom. No

6:14

pressure here, right? That show

6:16

of the whole podcast series.

6:18

Yes,

6:18

I know. Okay, well, let's just

6:20

ignore that. And let's just zero in on

6:23

what the heck does Billy

6:25

mean by rock and roller colo

6:28

wars? It sounds to me like a little bit of a dance

6:31

off.

6:31

The both brands at the

6:33

time in the 80s leading up to

6:36

the song coming out at the end of the decade were

6:39

both using music artists.

6:41

I mean, it's interesting he used rock and roller

6:44

because at the time, Coca-Cola,

6:47

primarily for Diet Coke, was

6:49

using folks like Ray Charles

6:52

and Aretha Franklin. Really? And

6:54

Pepsi is known, and you probably do

6:56

have the memory of Michael Jackson,

6:59

Paul Abdul, Britney Spears,

7:02

right? So it's interesting, right? Rock and roller

7:04

colo wars. But if you look, it's sort of

7:06

R&B and pop musicians

7:09

were generally the ones feeding

7:11

those advertisements that we

7:14

may remember from the 1980s and were

7:16

hot at the time that the song came

7:19

out. I've got a feeling, Katie, that rock and roller is simply

7:21

to rhyme with

7:22

cola. It trips off the tongue. And I'm

7:24

wondering, Matt, why are pop stars

7:27

suddenly purveyors of soda

7:29

pop in the 1980s?

7:30

What's so interesting, Katie, is

7:32

that

7:33

Coca-Cola began using

7:37

music stars back in the 60s. They

7:41

were working with McCann Erickson,

7:43

their advertising company, Bill Backer,

7:45

as sort of an icon in the

7:47

industry. And he tied

7:50

in the idea of young

7:53

music. So does in general, and we'll

7:55

talk about this more, sort of usually target

7:57

a younger audience in their advertising and

7:59

promotion. emotions kind of work. So we are talking

8:02

about in the 1960s, bands

8:04

like The Supremes, Aretha

8:06

Franklin, Marvin Gaye, Ray

8:08

Charles, The Who, The

8:11

Four Seasons, The Everly Brothers,

8:13

Roy, or all of those bands

8:16

adapted the slogan for Coke, Things

8:20

Go Better With Coke, and

8:22

did short spots, but also songs.

8:25

Some of them made the top 10 billboard. I'd

8:27

like to teach the world to sing

8:29

perfect harmony.

8:33

That was what, 1969 or 1970? That

8:36

that famous Coke. 71, that

8:38

famous Coke ad came out. Which

8:39

also hit the billboard top 10

8:41

when it came out. And so tell us about that

8:44

ad, because I think that was something that even

8:46

people who weren't alive then remember.

8:49

You weren't alive,

8:50

Tom, is that right? No, but I remember Oasis ripping it off

8:52

for Shakermaker. Okay, all

8:54

right. Yeah, so Matt, talk

8:56

us through that ad. What did we see? What did

8:58

we hear? Yeah, so that

9:01

came out of both these brands.

9:03

Coca-Cola more strongly, a total

9:06

global presence, right? 100 to 200

9:09

countries, right, exactly, all around the world. So

9:12

that spun out of kind of this ethos

9:15

of the 60s and Vietnam

9:17

War and in

9:20

the United States, the challenges

9:22

of civil rights and all these kinds of things. And

9:25

again, still stemming

9:27

off this music theme that Coke

9:30

had been on in the 60s, they

9:32

also did some of their own additional

9:35

advertising with songs that they developed.

9:38

And this sort of spun out once again

9:40

with McCann Erickson as a unique

9:43

song. It's actually the story goes

9:45

that Bill Backer, this

9:47

accountant at McCann, was

9:50

on a flight delay in Ireland and

9:53

is his recalling of the story. And

9:56

he was watching folks in the airport,

9:59

you know, of all kinds, kind of drinking

10:01

Coca-Cola in this social situation

10:04

and have these familiar words,

10:06

let's have a Coke, which was the sort

10:08

of phrasing he was using at the time as, you

10:11

know, a subtle, as he calls it, a subtle way

10:13

of saying, let's keep each other company

10:15

for a little while. And that spun

10:18

into the lyrical formation in his

10:21

mind and eventually that song, which

10:23

again, was sent out as an advertisement,

10:26

but fans, radio

10:28

listeners began requesting from DJs

10:30

at the time to keep like,

10:32

can you play that Coke ad? That's a dream come true

10:34

for those Coke executives. And

10:37

then can you tell us about what we saw

10:39

in this iconic television advertisement?

10:42

Yes, so they got

10:44

people of all racist creed's

10:46

colors, right, onto a hill in

10:49

Italy. It's interesting, it's this

10:51

piece in love, but my faculty

10:54

director here at Columbia, Baron Schmidt,

10:56

also says it looks kind of like they're in military

10:58

formation simultaneously

11:01

with the way they're read on the hilltop.

11:04

So that was again, right, Coca-Cola

11:07

trying to get into the ethos of the time. Do you know what

11:09

I found myself running, Katie, after our

11:11

taste challenge

11:12

with the taste of two colas

11:14

still glued to our

11:15

teeth and our tongues? I

11:18

found myself thinking what strange beverages

11:20

they are. It's just such a weird beverage. I

11:22

mean, it's not recognizably

11:24

a flavor that occurs in

11:26

the natural world. And that

11:29

makes me wonder, Matt, both these drinks were

11:31

created in the late 1880s. And

11:34

supposedly it's sort of a vague cocktail

11:36

of lemon and coriander nutmeg cinnamon.

11:41

Would you hazard a guess on what

11:44

it's based on? Or was it just an entirely

11:46

new invention? Or were olden days people

11:49

wearing bustles and corsets

11:50

enjoying these strange, abstruse

11:54

beverages? Well, it's an

11:56

interesting question. It really

11:58

ties into...

11:59

the creation of these drinks being

12:02

by chemists and pharmacists.

12:04

They're health tonics. They were which

12:07

were these sort of mixed mixture

12:09

of sweet things and drugs,

12:13

essentially. Right. So the story

12:15

goes that John Pemberton, who

12:17

is the originator of Coca-Cola, the

12:20

first of the two, was taken

12:22

by a drink that had become popular

12:24

in Europe, particularly and then over in

12:26

the United States called Vin Mariani.

12:30

Developed by the inventor, Angelo

12:32

Mariani, also a chemist

12:35

who took a bored dough and

12:38

incorporated cocoa leaves into

12:41

the production

12:42

of it,

12:43

which created cocaine. So

12:46

it had this energy refreshing

12:49

thing. Reportedly, the Pope at the time

12:51

was a fan and did an endorsement

12:54

of Vin Mariani. And so

12:56

supposedly Pemberton first developed

12:58

an alcoholic adaptation where

13:01

he also incorporated the Cola Nut,

13:04

which had also been growing in the 19th century

13:06

as a caffeine oriented

13:10

material to put in things to give that

13:12

caffeine boost, which was sweeter

13:15

in its underlying flavor than, you know,

13:17

coffee or tea at the time. So

13:19

these kind of sweet. So he combined

13:22

essentially that coca and cola

13:25

together into this syrupy

13:27

drink. Caleb Bradham is the

13:29

two years later and in 1888 developed Pepsi Cola. He

13:33

was pepsin was his unique

13:35

element mixed with the Cola. He did not have.

13:37

And what is pepsin? What is pepsin?

13:39

It's interesting, a digestive enzyme. But

13:41

yes, I mean, basically all of these are glorified

13:44

speedballs or like puppy uppers and doggy

13:46

downers. You knock it back and it slows

13:48

your roll, but it gives you a little lust for life at

13:51

the same time. And

13:51

they were they were spun out of both these being

13:53

chemists and pharmacists. Right. The soda fountain. Right.

13:56

That was where they their products and their

13:59

livelihoods.

13:59

was spent in a pharmacy,

14:02

which at the time had these syrups

14:04

that were poured into a glass of which

14:06

then carbonated water was

14:08

poured into it and they were stirred together and you

14:10

drank it. And so that ethos of like

14:13

this social drink that people are having

14:15

led to this urge to create

14:18

something new, something healthy, something that would

14:20

help not just be sweet and sugary, but

14:23

also aid your health and energy

14:25

and be addictive slightly.

14:27

Only slightly. So

14:29

by the time we get to this period in the late 1980s,

14:32

Matt, I was going to ask how the companies

14:35

choose the stars, but also are the

14:37

stars doing it just for the

14:39

dollar? Recording companies

14:41

and distributors make way more

14:44

money on the sales of music than

14:47

the artists themselves do. So no

14:49

doubt, I mean, there's no doubt in my mind

14:51

that financial elements

14:54

were the strongest reason. I

14:56

think that probably each of

14:58

them also had

14:59

historical affection, right? I

15:01

mean, you, you know, Tom, you're like, it takes me back

15:03

to being nine years old, right? And that

15:06

I'm sure for some of them, there was

15:08

an element of that as well. They had

15:10

an affection for either Coke or Pepsi.

15:13

You know, supposedly Michael Jackson was approached

15:16

by Coca-Cola. Possibly the reason he didn't

15:18

say yes to them on a couple of occasions

15:21

was because he was a Pepsi fan and was kind

15:23

of waiting. Pepsi

15:25

might reach out to him. When

15:27

you, Katie, have watched some of these adverts back

15:29

in the past few days, what have your thoughts been? Because

15:32

I watched the George Michael Diet Coke one

15:35

and we're familiar with this, sort of the

15:37

career arc of George Michael, where he leaves Wham

15:40

and he releases Faith

15:43

and then he gets rid of it and he

15:45

wants to get rid of that whole image. In the advert,

15:48

he's never more George Michael Faith or Faith

15:50

George Michael than in this advert because he's got

15:52

the cowboy boots. He's got a massive

15:54

set of spurs on both cowboy boots.

15:57

He's got the tight jeans. He's got a

15:59

cropped.

15:59

jacket with a lot of rhinestone going on.

16:02

It's the antithesis of Listen Without

16:05

Prejudice, which will be the next, you know, when he strips it back

16:07

down. So it's almost

16:09

like, it's almost

16:10

like character challenge. He's doing the cartoon

16:12

version of himself. I guess when

16:15

I was looking at the Michael Jackson

16:17

Pepsi one, and that's one where he's sort

16:19

of benignly mentoring a young

16:22

person as opposed to the other version

16:24

of whatever he was up to, possibly,

16:27

allegedly, I don't know, although I did see him

16:29

with some children once at a mall

16:31

in Las Vegas. And I said hello to him. That

16:33

was fun. Anyway, but when I saw the

16:36

Pepsi ad and he's sort of encouraging

16:38

the young people to do some Michael Jackson

16:40

moves, I felt like it

16:42

was very anodyne and safe.

16:45

And I mean, I don't want to say sellout

16:48

because it's not like Michael Jackson was ever going to be

16:50

some sort of edgy, you

16:52

know, niche artists or anything. But

16:55

it felt like in order to satisfy

16:58

the master, which is the corporation

17:01

of Pepsi, he was also having

17:03

to kind of just blend out his

17:05

art a little bit. And I'm wondering if

17:07

these artists, whether it was Tina Turner

17:10

or

17:10

Madonna, George Michael or Michael Jackson,

17:13

did they have any reservations about throwing

17:15

their lot in or were they just after the

17:17

filthy luker?

17:19

Nothing I have come

17:21

across talks about their angst

17:23

again, as I was talking back with Coca Cola,

17:25

like the who David Bowie. I mean,

17:28

the Rolling Stones have done. I mean, the

17:30

number. So the history of music

17:34

involved in these

17:36

brands, particularly Coca Cola

17:38

and then Pepsi, right? It gave them permission

17:41

in a way not to feel like

17:43

they were be they were sellouts. And

17:46

I think because of the

17:48

social nature,

17:49

right? Why are these? They're

17:51

just it's sugar water. These are

17:53

multi billion dollar businesses,

17:55

you know, global, like the

17:57

biggest, literally the biggest brands in the world.

17:59

and it's just selling sugar water. And

18:02

yet it's this ethos and this lifestyle and

18:04

it's because it's a particular

18:07

product

18:08

that we consume

18:11

in all sorts of settings and at

18:13

all times of day. And

18:15

it creates that social vibe and

18:18

music is highly social. And

18:20

I think that it's like, where are

18:22

there these fits? When we talk a lot about

18:25

how do brands work with lifestyle issues,

18:27

you gotta have a fit. The brand needs

18:29

to be able to speak to that lifestyle

18:32

it's trying to portray. And,

18:34

you know, cola and music just

18:36

seem to go together really nicely.

18:38

["Boey's

18:44

Theme

18:49

Song"] And considering how we think of Bowie now, the

18:52

fact that he released a single that you could get

18:54

called Coca Cola Planets, and

18:57

that the advert featured a very Bowie

18:59

silhouette of him draining one of the quintessential

19:02

glass bottles. I find that slightly

19:04

shocking.

19:05

Well, the thing about David Bowie is

19:07

that he was always a very canny

19:09

artist and always

19:11

had his eye on the prize. I don't think that he, I

19:13

mean, he was totally happy to push

19:16

boundaries, but he was also completely

19:18

happy to have a hit. That's

19:20

why he brought in our man, now Rogers, to

19:23

jish up the album that became Let's

19:25

Dance because he wanted a hit. So he wasn't

19:28

backwards in coming forward on wanting

19:30

success like that.

19:31

["Purn Your Red Shoes and Dance

19:33

the Blues"] There's a great, there's a documentary

19:36

where Niles interviewed and

19:39

he talks about, why did you, David, why

19:41

did you come to me? And he's

19:43

like, what do you want me to do here? Right, knowing

19:45

that his style of music that he'd been

19:47

producing and what David had been doing

19:49

was not a natural match. And

19:52

he said, I want you to do what you do, make

19:54

me hits.

19:54

That's right, make me hits. Now,

19:56

Bowie, that's not, he has several

19:58

different ads.

19:59

over the course of his life, his entry into

20:02

the soda advertising was later. But

20:05

he's kitsch, and I think that worked for, right?

20:07

That's the thing, David Bowie's right, this universal,

20:10

David Bowie and Prince are these unique,

20:12

universally loved by everyone

20:14

and all giant, it's like they could

20:16

not fail. Anything they did, they gave

20:18

sort of class and credit to, partly because

20:20

they were also, iconically

20:24

not blending into what was standard

20:26

at the time, they gave them permission, but we're

20:29

so pop,

20:29

right? We're so rote, such great,

20:33

catchy melodies and tunes that

20:36

they, again, it's these unique things where you

20:38

get these permissions to do this

20:40

stuff. You know, like the who for me is the,

20:43

but they did a whole, like the who sells out, right?

20:45

They did a whole album spun off of

20:47

a couple of these commitments they made. But again,

20:50

right, you gotta feel sympathy. Music

20:52

artists generally make their money from

20:55

touring,

20:55

which is a brutal

20:59

day in, day out lifestyle to lead.

21:02

So opportunities like this

21:05

to just sit around for a day and

21:07

do a recording of something and make

21:09

a few million, but you know, hundreds of thousands may

21:11

be bad and up to millions as we're

21:14

talking about the eighties and nineties, just why

21:16

would, how could you turn that down?

21:17

And also the thing is, and you touched

21:20

on this before, these are two iconic brands.

21:22

And so in fact, it elevates an

21:24

artist, I would have thought, in a way to align

21:26

themselves with something that is just seen as

21:29

part of American culture and part of the

21:31

American dream. And I'm wondering,

21:34

do you think that Coke and Pepsi would have become

21:36

the iconic brands that they are without

21:39

advertising?

21:40

I don't think any brand

21:42

can become iconic. I'll give Starbucks

21:45

is a possible exception without

21:47

advertising, right? We're talking about you literally can

21:49

find a few brands ever in the history

21:52

who have become iconic without

21:54

advertising. So yes, very

21:56

commonplace. I mean, their initial

21:59

spread, right? them popular over

22:01

the course of their first couple of decades to be available,

22:03

not just throughout the U.S., but very quickly,

22:06

globally, I think was because

22:08

of the soda fountain chemist

22:10

pharmacist background to this. Pemberton

22:14

developed Coca-Cola, but he died shortly

22:16

after creating it and sold it to

22:18

a wholesale pharmacist.

22:21

He had these connections throughout all

22:24

these pharmacies around the

22:26

Georgia area, but as well outside of that.

22:29

That sort of spread, that origin

22:32

of these brands coming out of

22:34

the soda fountain, the pharmacy,

22:36

and then eventually bottlers who were doing

22:39

other things and saw the way these things

22:41

were popular, especially again, Coca-Cola

22:43

having cocaine in it, small

22:46

amounts, but still up until 1903,

22:49

that initial spread across the United States

22:51

that occurred within a dozen years

22:54

after it came out

22:56

led to the bottling happening,

22:59

and then they pushed.

23:02

People liked having a cold, refreshing drink as

23:05

part of, like I said earlier, every part

23:07

of your life may include a moment of

23:10

release, a cheap, relatively

23:12

moment of release and joy by having a

23:15

sweet cold drink, and boom,

23:18

it explodes. Advertising creates

23:20

that top of mind kind of thing, to

23:22

have people choose this weird

23:25

syrupy sweet thing that doesn't

23:27

have any corollary flavor that we think

23:29

of in normal life versus something

23:31

like lemonade with carbonation in it. That's

23:37

where the advertising helped. That's where the connection

23:40

to celebrity culture. One

23:42

of the very first celebrity endorsements was Joan

23:44

Crawford. She was

23:46

a Coke celebrity endorser

23:48

in 1933. Wow. Do we

23:51

need to set all this in the context

23:53

of the Ferrari over new

23:56

Coca-Cola? Oh yeah. In the

23:58

middle of the 1980s. Talk us through that.

23:59

in relief for most of their

24:02

time period up until today, Coca-Cola

24:05

dominant leader, and up until

24:08

about 1970, very dominant leader,

24:10

like five to one. All of that

24:12

going on, Pepsi is this Challenger branch

24:15

throughout the whole time leading into

24:17

this shift that goes

24:19

on as they come up

24:22

with this idea of doing the Pepsi challenge. The

24:24

idea was particularly in Dallas. They were seeing in Texas.

24:27

Their market share was horrible. One

24:29

of the worst step for a very large state in the US,

24:32

their worst market share, and that was sort of the implication

24:34

was they knew, and actually if you read

24:37

the stories about it, Coke

24:40

representatives kind of knew at the time too, if you

24:42

just tasted the two blind, people

24:45

liked Pepsi better. Little

24:47

bit, not everyone, right? Everyone has different, but it was 60, 40, 55, 45, right? You

24:52

guys split. That's kind of what it was

24:54

with a little more Pepsi than Coca-Cola.

24:57

The Pepsi challenge begins really the wars,

25:00

right? That's really what starts Pepsi

25:03

getting into the mindset of the

25:05

public in a different way, seen as

25:08

this battler and challenger, right? It's

25:12

successful, and they're doing well, and they've

25:14

spun off these live tastings and

25:16

advertising about these live tastings, and it becomes

25:18

a buzz, and the media is talking about it,

25:20

and on and on. Underlying that

25:23

is Coke's realization like we could be in trouble

25:25

because people really do prefer the taste,

25:28

and so behind the scenes they

25:30

went about two years, just what

25:33

I've read being formulating

25:35

what became this launch's new Coke.

25:39

They could have just done it subtly, just

25:41

sort of changed the flavor, right?

25:43

You guys are looked at blind taste tests. You're

25:45

like, which one? They're different a little bit, but

25:48

I don't know. Is it Coke or is it? They

25:50

could have subtly changed the flavor. Once

25:53

they saw the red, their mindset would have been, I'm

25:55

drinking a Coke, and they probably would have

25:57

never noticed, but they felt this.

25:59

need to have this public

26:02

announcement like the Pepsi challenge.

26:04

So they made it big. And that's where you

26:06

get right into the

26:08

distinction between the

26:10

functional elements of a product

26:13

and the mindset we have about the product,

26:16

right? Because the

26:18

function, like flavor wise, people,

26:20

they'd done all their testing. People preferred the

26:23

new Coke to the existing

26:25

Coke if they did blind taste tests.

26:26

That's so interesting. So they actually like the

26:28

new Coke. They did. That was, I mean, they

26:31

tested it. They didn't do this because out

26:33

of a total whim without any commitment, they had been

26:35

testing this new formula. They knew people

26:37

preferred it. But that

26:39

moment of taking this,

26:42

this brand, this icon, this thing

26:44

that I loved and changing

26:47

it

26:48

crushed people.

26:51

I mean, it became front page of the news. It was almost

26:53

like a betrayal of sorts. That's exactly right.

26:55

That is what people felt. I love

26:57

your, love this product. I love who

26:59

you are and you've changed your formula. I

27:01

want no part of it. I'm fine if you create

27:04

diet Coke. I mean, they had tab for

27:06

years, which we don't really talk about much

27:09

as the first diet drink. I'm okay

27:11

with you adapting and creating a new thing. But

27:13

somehow that thing that I bought

27:15

and loved you've changed was an

27:17

anthem.

27:18

I'm so interested in the idea

27:20

of the emotions that are attached

27:22

to these inanimate objects. And I know it's because,

27:25

you know, people, they're almost like part

27:27

of the family. You know, whenever there's a gathering

27:30

of the family or your friends, you're drinking

27:32

one of these beverages usually. And

27:35

I'm wondering if the fact that music

27:38

was involved, and we're talking about these rock and roll or color

27:40

wars and I mean, the fact that Madonna

27:43

actually debuted her Like a Prayer

27:46

song and video with for Pepsi. I

27:48

mean, I wonder if that was just the ultimate,

27:51

do you think, in mashing together

27:53

all of these emotion triggering

27:57

things, whether it's music and whether

27:59

it's

27:59

the Comestibles, Drinkables.

28:02

Yeah, every brand is trying to come up

28:04

with something emotional to

28:06

tie you into. And music has been

28:08

historically a part of these

28:10

pot eggs. All the brands that spent

28:12

a lot of money. I mean, soap brands, all these kinds

28:15

of things. But like could Aretha

28:17

Franklin have done a Pepsi ad? Sure.

28:21

Right? Versus Coca-Cola. I

28:23

don't think there's not too much about the brands, although

28:25

you could argue, right, from the core perspective,

28:28

if you look at them. And it's interesting as you look at

28:30

advertising over time, they mimic and

28:32

copy each other. One of them does a youth thing

28:34

for a while. The other one does youth. One of

28:37

them had their country cowboy

28:39

boots in the 50s and 60s. Their

28:41

cowboy boots and hats, ads.

28:44

And then the other one did their cowboy boots and

28:46

cowboy hat ads. And so there is a lot

28:48

of overlap if you actually

28:51

look at it over the course of time. But

28:53

we think of Coke as sort of happiness and nostalgia

28:56

in our modern era, right? It's where they've gone.

28:58

And Pepsi as youth. Young, fun,

29:01

energized.

29:02

So Pepsi's looking forward and Coke is

29:04

looking back, and that's broadly. So

29:06

today, every dime store teen

29:09

TikTok influencer styles

29:11

themselves as a brand. But that wasn't

29:13

the case in the 1980s. And I'm wondering,

29:16

did that association help

29:19

Madonna and Michael Jackson? Was

29:22

there a boomerang effect? And did that

29:24

help their careers? Anytime

29:27

you are

29:28

placed in front of lots of

29:30

people, you're going to get an increase

29:32

in some fashion to your sales

29:35

or revenue, right? So every one of these stars

29:38

being on the airwaves in

29:40

an additional fashion through this advertising

29:43

only created more of a mindset

29:46

for people to think about these artists

29:49

and therefore buy their albums or request

29:51

their songs from DJs on the radio.

29:53

I wonder as well, Katie, because that Madonna

29:55

track, Like a Prayer, that you referenced was

29:58

actually

29:58

at the time quite considered quite

29:59

transgressive wasn't it? Because there

30:02

is a lot of religious iconography as there

30:04

always is with Madonna, but there is the kissing

30:07

of a black Jesus, which in 1989 was quite the

30:09

thing.

30:09

It was quite the thing, yeah. Waxy

30:11

black Jesus. Well

30:13

there's a statue that comes to life in

30:15

a Sleeping Beauty. She's

30:17

sort of in jail but not in jail. She's in a church

30:19

with a gospel choir. She's having it every which

30:21

way but loose. She's like cavorting

30:24

around a field of burning crosses

30:27

wearing a slut slip and it's all very intoxicating.

30:30

I'm playing with fire here but

30:32

Matt the phony baloney culture

30:35

war era that Americans are currently

30:38

enjoying, I'm wondering how these

30:40

two brands would position themselves

30:43

or reflect the divisions happening in American

30:45

culture today because like Madonna

30:48

kissing a black Jesus would

30:50

be seen as intolerably woke

30:53

by the fragile white nationalist. I mean

30:55

I'd like to teach the world to sing that would

30:57

not go down very well. Which

30:59

tune are you

31:00

going to teach this world to sing? No. There'd

31:02

be some book banning. There'd be some problems.

31:05

But how do brands like Coke and

31:07

Pepsi, how do they tip toe through the tulips

31:09

with these sort of fissures

31:12

that are happening in society?

31:13

Yeah, obviously I think we

31:15

see that it changes over time and even within

31:17

a few years, right? The permission

31:19

to tackle something in

31:22

society grows and wanes

31:24

and has historically in the way that Coca-Cola

31:27

had a huge hit with I'd like to

31:29

teach the world to sing, right? At

31:32

a time in which there were also people who were very

31:34

angry about anti-war protests,

31:36

about the civil rights movement. I mean that

31:39

was not a time when it was necessarily easy to say,

31:41

hey, peace and love, right? I mean there were

31:43

a lot of angry members of the public

31:45

that were angry at the time in doing that and yet

31:48

Coke turned it into a huge success. And

31:50

we've seen failures of that too, right? Most recently

31:53

you're talking about it now, but the Kendall

31:55

Jenner Pepsi ad that you guys

31:57

may have remembered coming out in

31:59

Pepsi. Pepsi gained its notoriety in

32:01

the 30s when it

32:03

went to a 12-ounce bottle for

32:06

a nickel instead of a six-ounce

32:08

bottle for a nickel, as Coca-Cola

32:10

did. The growth

32:13

of Pepsi, which really had gone bankrupt

32:15

twice prior to 1931, was that it tapped

32:20

in with that pricing change. It

32:22

became something that poor people

32:24

bought more because it was less expensive.

32:28

And out of that, there was a racial

32:31

affection within PepsiCo.

32:33

Challenged at times, right, because it

32:35

was controversial, right? We don't want to be associated

32:38

as the black brand of soda

32:40

because maybe that'll turn off white people, right?

32:42

I mean, there was that those debates went on in the hallways

32:44

of PepsiCo, but they committed more. And

32:47

so I think based on that ethos over time, as you

32:50

know, prior to the growing protests

32:53

and the full effect we've had

32:55

since pandemic, but there were, again,

32:58

Black Lives Matter type protests going on.

33:01

And Pepsi felt with our history,

33:04

this is a place that we can play. And

33:07

they got a

33:08

star, Kendall Jenner, to

33:10

come and do a kind of peace and love ad.

33:13

But it failed tremendously.

33:17

And I think it failed tremendously in

33:20

two ways. Even on execution, it was

33:22

sort of cheesy. I mean, the reality

33:25

was it didn't have the grit. Like the beauty

33:27

of a bunch of singers on a hillside

33:29

was it was separated from a protest. Whereas

33:32

Kendall Jenner had tried to display

33:34

a protest, but in a

33:36

not seemingly angsty, angry,

33:39

tense way. And again, does Pepsi

33:41

have the right to be commenting on this?

33:44

Does Kendall Jenner the right person to be comment?

33:46

So it just, how did

33:48

it not, how did they even put it out?

33:50

Pepsi effectively brings world peace

33:52

by offering a Pepsi. That's right,

33:54

exactly. And it was sort of lambasted and

33:56

they pulled the ad really quickly because, you know,

33:59

did

33:59

just didn't worry the same way you coke, right?

34:02

Talking of playing with fire, Matt,

34:05

was it a Pepsi or filming a Pepsi commercial

34:07

when Michael Jackson suffered those burns?

34:09

That was, yeah, round two. So the first one was

34:12

this adaptation of Thriller. And

34:14

the second one, I forget what the ad

34:16

was called, Community or something like that. Yeah,

34:19

it was pyrotechnics lit

34:21

his hair on fire and Pepsi,

34:24

luckily they stamped it out. He

34:26

went to the hospital, he was fine,

34:28

had some surgery, although he blames

34:29

his drug addiction

34:32

to that incident over the long term.

34:35

Didn't come out right away, but he began to talk

34:37

about that. That was the first time I got painkillers, and that

34:39

was sort of what led me on to becoming

34:41

a drug addict. But at the time, again,

34:44

hit the news. They got lots

34:46

of earned media of it, and they, you

34:49

know, attention and love

34:51

of Pepsi grew as much from

34:53

the hair as it did from

34:55

using

34:56

the star in their ads. Katie,

34:59

we've discussed a lot about these two brands, and I'm

35:01

just looking at the bottles on the table in front of

35:03

us that we use in our blind

35:05

taste test. And even the fact that one

35:07

is red and one is blue separates

35:09

them off, doesn't it? I just wonder, Matt, as

35:12

someone who, as I've mentioned, last had

35:14

either of these beverages at the age of nine, do

35:17

consumers tend to be either a Coke

35:19

person or a Pepsi person, or do

35:21

people switch from one to the other and back

35:23

again? Again, data

35:26

on this seems to be mostly people who

35:29

love one

35:29

or the other and get angry, right? A la the

35:32

reaction to new Coke. I'm

35:34

so fascinated by the idea that advertising

35:37

is a form of not so subtle brainwashing.

35:41

And I'm wondering, going

35:43

forward with these brands, what do

35:46

you see in how they're positioning

35:48

themselves? Because like you

35:50

say, Coca-Cola seems to be largely

35:53

about looking back nostalgically, and Pepsi

35:55

seems to be about looking into the future.

35:58

And right now, particularly in America. It's

36:00

such a polarized country

36:02

and people are very interested more than ever

36:05

in taking sides. It's like

36:07

the whole country is having a Pepsi challenge, you

36:10

know, in terms of culture wars. How

36:13

do you see these brands continuing? Do

36:15

you think they're going to keep on enlisting

36:18

rock stars and pop stars? Are we

36:21

going to move on to influencers or maybe

36:23

politicians?

36:24

Oh, politicians would be fascinating.

36:27

That would be a whole, the quote unquote, don't

36:29

touch the third rail of just politics itself,

36:31

right, which is largely broken

36:33

and exactly what we're talking about. Incorporating

36:36

a politician into it would

36:39

be a whole nother ballpark of things

36:41

that would be crashing the train entirely. I

36:43

don't expect either of these two brands, particularly

36:46

with what happened with the Pepsi,

36:49

Kendall Jenner ad. I don't think either

36:51

of these two brands that are essentially

36:55

neutral at

36:56

this point in their lives

36:58

in terms of, you know, their political ethos

37:01

are going to get onto the culture,

37:03

touch the culture rail too

37:06

much. They will touch pop music.

37:08

They will use influencers up

37:10

until, you know, what happened with

37:13

Anheuser-Busch, you know, Bud Light.

37:14

Who's the trans

37:17

influencer?

37:17

Well, they were, you know,

37:19

again in a thing where Bud Light's trying, recognizing

37:22

that generally beer sales are going down, the society's

37:25

changing, they're looking to target

37:27

new stakeholders, right, new people who might be interested.

37:30

And so when you do that, you pick some different

37:33

themes and people that relate to those. So

37:35

they were like, hey, the LGBTQ

37:37

plus community, we want to adapt to that

37:39

more. All they did was

37:42

send a can with, you know, her picture

37:44

on it. And she did one quick little

37:46

moment about saying, hey, join this contest.

37:49

It's cool to see my face on a can, right? This was

37:52

not some national global

37:54

advertising switch. I mean, that's

37:56

the level we're at, which is what makes it, you

37:59

know, more impactful. and trickier, right?

38:01

You know, you can have a brand like Patagonia,

38:04

who, you know, in 2020,

38:06

on the label of one of their products, which

38:08

of course went viral via social media,

38:11

had Vote the Assholes out on

38:13

their tag. You know, Patagonia is a beloved

38:16

brand by both Republicans and Democrats.

38:18

But again, that could have been controversial. That could have gotten

38:21

Republicans to start burning Patagonia, but

38:23

no, they, no, went

38:25

fine. That was fine. Why did Patagonia

38:28

could do that? I think Coca-Cola

38:30

and Pepsi, because their

38:32

ethos is social, being

38:35

together, being happy, both of them, fun,

38:37

happiness, socialization, like that's

38:39

what they're about. The lifestyle of your everyday,

38:42

fun life. And I don't think either of them

38:44

are gonna

38:45

get too deep into the culture wars at this point.

38:47

So throughout this entire song, Billy

38:50

travels the world. He travels across

38:52

countries, across cataclysmic

38:54

events, reviews

38:57

various world leaders, their successes,

38:59

their failures, their crimes. And

39:02

it occurs to me that Coca-Cola

39:05

in particular is really a symbol

39:07

of America. And do you

39:09

know, Matt, if it still

39:12

carries a cache or kind

39:14

of like a statue of liberty

39:17

torch

39:17

of hope in other countries,

39:20

because it used to be kind of Coke and Mickey

39:22

Mouse were the two symbols of America

39:25

that sort of symbolized democracy

39:27

and freedom.

39:29

Yeah, I think we're past that now. I mean,

39:31

I think we're past that mostly because, right, the world,

39:34

as the internet came, and the world went

39:36

from being a large place to a quote

39:38

unquote small place, right? Where

39:41

no matter where you were around the world, your

39:43

message could be out there and become something

39:45

that everyone around the world knew about. That

39:48

that separation of sort

39:50

of iconic brands

39:53

representing a national symbol, there's

39:55

still place branding. There are brands that

39:57

are tied to the place they are in. I think Coca-Cola

39:59

is.

39:59

still tied into

40:02

America as a brand, despite the

40:04

fact that it's been global for over 100 years now. But

40:07

it doesn't have the sense of freedom, maybe, that

40:11

it would have, I think, because brand

40:13

America is undergoing its

40:17

challenges right now in the global marketplace.

40:19

So brands strongly associated with

40:22

America have

40:24

lost that kind of cachet. The

40:26

power of the American brand has

40:28

dipped. Well, Katie,

40:31

you've made me think there when you talk

40:32

about Coca-Cola as a representation

40:35

of all that America has

40:37

been and can be.

40:38

So actually, it feels really quite a fitting

40:41

topic for our final episode. I think

40:43

so, too. Matthew Quint, thank

40:45

you so much for being such a fantastic

40:48

storyteller and putting a little muscle

40:51

in sinew in what I previously

40:53

thought was a somewhat flaccid topic.

40:56

You brought it to life.

40:57

Well, thank you so much, Katie and Tom,

40:59

for having me. Congratulations on

41:01

episode 120 and putting a button on

41:05

what I'm sure will be an enjoyable historic

41:09

look at history and mob culture

41:11

for everyone over time. You

41:12

know it. Do

41:13

do do do do do do do do do

41:16

do

41:16

do do do do do do do do do do do

41:18

do do do do do do do do. Well, Katie, this is usually

41:20

the part of the show when we reflect on

41:23

the single episode that we have just recorded.

41:25

Yes. It's slightly different today.

41:27

It's a little bit different. It's kind

41:29

of strange. It's bittersweet. A little bit like

41:31

my Pepsi, which is almost

41:34

finished. I am a Pepsi

41:36

girl. You're a fiend. I am a fiend. This

41:38

is our final episode, Billy

41:41

Saw Fit, to stop at topic 120.

41:45

And

41:47

that's it for us. Yeah. And,

41:50

Casey, we have had a number of questions

41:52

and topics and thoughts from our lovely listeners. I

41:54

know the listeners are so great. They're so invested.

41:57

We couldn't have done it without you guys. Linda

41:59

has. I like this one. What are favorite

42:01

moments from the show would be? Yeah,

42:04

what are you thinking about that? Do you know what I was

42:06

thinking back this morning to an episode

42:09

where it was one of those words that A, we couldn't say, I'm

42:12

still not sure I can say it, but we definitely

42:14

didn't know what it was beforehand, which was Panmunjom.

42:17

Oh yeah. And we had the lovely Colin

42:19

Thackeray come in. Yes. In

42:21

his full Chelsea pensioners, Red Tunic,

42:24

and sang some beautiful songs to us in the studio.

42:27

He was a veteran of the Korean

42:29

War, still going strong in his 90s, looking

42:31

sharp in that

42:34

uniform and singing his heart

42:36

out. And my gosh, what a hero.

42:39

That guy was so fun. And you've just reminded

42:41

me, Tom, one of the things that's so

42:43

wonderful about doing this show is

42:46

that we have been lucky enough

42:48

to talk to some of the participants in

42:51

these events and our Berlin

42:53

episode.

42:54

Oh, the love story. The love story

42:57

where she helped

42:59

her future husband escape

43:02

from East Berlin. It was cloak

43:04

and dagger. It was total

43:07

spy film stuff. It was thriller

43:09

diller. And so anyone who hasn't

43:12

heard that, go back and listen to that Berlin

43:14

episode because we have the couple who

43:16

were reunited and the young

43:18

man who helped smuggle out

43:20

the future

43:22

husband. Getting a bit throat lumpy thinking about that one, Katie.

43:24

Oh yeah. And then from George, George

43:27

asks a question that we frequently ask ourselves,

43:29

Katie, on our coffee breaks, is there anything

43:31

major that you think was missed? I've

43:34

got a little bit of a list here.

43:35

Yeah, you have a list. I know this is something

43:38

that you kvetch about from time to

43:40

time. Tell me what you have on your list. Well,

43:42

I've got Muhammad Ali. First and foremost,

43:44

I've got Muhammad Ali. We get quite a few boxes, but

43:46

we don't get the most iconic box

43:49

of all time. And think about Muhammad Ali. Is

43:51

there are so many different ways you could get him in? You could

43:53

get him in as Cassius Clay when he's winning Olympic

43:55

gold and beating Sonny Liston. You could get in

43:57

the anti-Vietnam war process.

43:59

You could get any number of epic sporting

44:02

contests. I wonder too,

44:04

Katie, we obviously had our

44:06

Beatles reference with the lovely Mark Lewison.

44:09

You probably could have squeezed in more Beatles ones as the

44:11

biggest and greatest band of all time. You probably,

44:14

in a very sad note, might have referenced the assassination

44:16

of John Lennon in 1980.

44:20

And maybe

44:21

thinking about all things music in

44:24

the 80s, as you and I like to do a lot

44:26

of the time, where the hell is Live

44:28

Aid?

44:29

Yeah, Live Aid isn't in there. Was Billy asked

44:31

to bring a... Billy didn't

44:33

appear at Live Aid. Here's what he

44:35

says about it, Katie. I was going to participate

44:37

in Live Aid. I just couldn't get all the guys

44:39

in my band together. And I tell you, to go out in

44:41

a stadium and just play the piano is a little

44:43

bit rough. So maybe that's why Live

44:46

Aid

44:47

doesn't get a mention. I

44:50

don't know how plausible that is. That's like me

44:52

going, I was going to play Live Aid

44:54

too.

44:54

I was.

44:56

And then I just felt like I couldn't

44:59

get the band together. Really, really, Billy? Yeah,

45:02

I'm not sure. Okay, so my big

45:04

question mark, being my bonnet moment, is

45:06

why the heck did Billy leave out Andy

45:09

Warhol? I

45:10

think there should have been more art in there. And Andy Warhol

45:12

is somebody who touches all manner

45:15

of pop culture in the 60s. He

45:18

sort of single-handedly invented people

45:21

as a brand. He invented

45:24

reality television, the way he would just turn

45:26

the camera on and point it at the proto-influencers

45:30

who styled themselves as superstars

45:32

in his factory. Yeah, I think Andy Warhol

45:35

would have been a good moment, a

45:37

good episode.

45:38

Definitely. Question from Nigel.

45:40

In fact, I'm going to read Nigel and Roger's

45:43

questions together because I think they may end up combining

45:45

in our minds. Nigel's question, favorite

45:48

episode and favorite guest. Roger's question,

45:50

which episode surprised you the most?

45:53

Okay, so yeah,

45:55

hi, Nigel. I loved

45:59

our Einstein.

45:59

David Badonis. David Badonis. David

46:02

Badonis. Fun to

46:04

say, fun to listen to, so passionate,

46:08

so fun-loving. Not surprised

46:10

to find out that he used to be a children's television

46:12

host.

46:12

I think you took a slight shine to remember

46:14

the course that you were saying. I do sort of slightly fall in

46:17

love with all of our guests. I get a

46:19

little bit of a crush on them because I love

46:21

anyone who has a big brain and who is

46:23

excited about their topic.

46:25

Excellent choice, Katie. I would also

46:27

throw in, I think, as favorite

46:29

guests. I always loved it when

46:31

we had Margaret McMillan.

46:32

Oh, yeah. Talk

46:35

about crush and talk about a big brain.

46:38

She's somebody who is

46:40

well across her subject. She was H-bomb

46:42

and she was the queen as well. England's got a new

46:44

queen. England's got a new queen. She just knows

46:47

her stuff. Oh, and what about her lovely

46:49

nephew? Mr. Dan Snow. Okay.

46:52

So, I have a crush on him as well. Katie,

46:55

doing this podcast is a chance for me

46:57

just to have heart eyes at

46:59

everybody who's so smart and interesting. I

47:01

think he was our first guest to

47:02

come to the studio in shorts as well. Katie,

47:08

it would be remiss at this point not to mention

47:11

Dr. Kara Robway.

47:12

Oh, she's the champion.

47:15

She's done the most episodes of any of our

47:17

experts. And we also need to give a shout out, of course,

47:19

on that same topic to Josh Chetwind. Oh,

47:22

Josh. Josh. He picked you up

47:25

and carried you through the battlefield

47:27

that is baseball. You

47:29

know what? I still wake up in the middle of the night feeling

47:32

a little bit bad that I gave him a hard time and I

47:34

hope he's not waking up in the middle of the night

47:36

cursing my name. But I used

47:38

to kind of pretend that I wasn't

47:41

that interested in baseball and I think I was

47:43

sort of over egging that dramatic

47:45

performance because he always made it so

47:48

interesting.

47:48

Yeah. Question from Bobby

47:50

Katie. Any underrated episodes

47:52

that everyone needs to listen to, we

47:54

always think of a certain polyester fabric.

47:57

Yes, why is Dacron? It's so compelling.

47:59

And of course, it was Dr. Cara Rodway. So she's

48:02

always going to be putting the pep

48:04

in the step. She's going to be putting the tiger in the tank

48:07

of any episode that you might be tempted to overlook.

48:10

But Dacron, there's just something about

48:13

the idea of better living through chemistry.

48:16

The idea that World War II was

48:18

over and life in America

48:20

was going to be near Vanna. And

48:23

fabric that you never had to wash ever again

48:26

was going to help us achieve that.

48:28

So Katie, this is the plan.

48:30

We have reached the end of 120 episodes of

48:33

We Didn't Start the Fire. So we're finishing

48:35

for now. But maybe we're just pausing. Who

48:38

knows what's going to happen in the future?

48:40

You and I may be back together again on

48:42

air sooner than people think. Keep

48:45

your eyes

48:46

peeled. Keep your ears open to this

48:48

feed. I would keep your ears and other

48:50

body parts just clamped to

48:53

your device, just in case we just

48:56

pop up.

48:56

And before then, we want to offer a

48:59

huge thank you. We want to thank our listeners, Katie.

49:01

We want to thank anyone who's ever emailed

49:03

us, anyone who's sent us letters, the

49:06

ones who sent us aprons, those

49:08

who have given us guest suggestions or come on

49:10

the show, James, whose

49:12

wife gave him fire-themed Christmas presents because,

49:15

in his words, he wouldn't shut up about the podcast.

49:17

Well, I'm going to thank James's wife, not James,

49:19

for that. I like it. Guy, who set up a Wikipedia

49:22

page just for the show updates every week.

49:24

He's a saint. He's a hero. Crowd Network,

49:27

all our producers, Fionn and Anna. Oh,

49:29

thank you. Thank you, looking lovingly

49:31

at them through the window, blowing kisses.

49:34

And a huge thank you

49:37

from Tom Fordyce and Katie Puckrick

49:39

to Billy Joel.

49:40

Billy,

49:42

some people doubted you.

49:44

Occasionally, Katie and I doubted you. I

49:46

doubt you no longer. Billy, you had

49:48

no idea what you were setting us loose

49:50

on, and it has been fantastic.

49:52

So Billy, thank you. And Katie, there is one

49:55

other person I would like to thank. And that is Katie

49:57

Puckrick. And I've got you

49:59

a little.

49:59

something to say thanks for sitting

50:02

with me for 120 episodes. I'm

50:05

passing over to you now. Okay. Because

50:07

I'm a man, I haven't wrapped it. It's simply in

50:10

the envelope that it arrived

50:11

in. It's a brown cardboard

50:13

unmarked envelope and

50:16

I'm pulling it out. And

50:19

it's a 45 record

50:22

of Weed and Start the Fire

50:27

by a man named Billy Joel. And

50:29

this is a very, very thoughtful

50:32

record. And this is

50:34

a very thoughtful present to give me, but I'm wondering

50:38

if the other box that you haven't shown me yet

50:40

has a record player in it. Because

50:43

I don't have one.

50:44

Well, Katie, I thought that we knew the song

50:46

well enough that you didn't actually need to

50:48

play anymore, but now you've got

50:50

your own Billy Joel. We didn't start the fire

50:53

keepsake forever more.

50:53

Oh, thank you. It's just been such a pleasure

50:56

working with you and it's only the beginning.

50:59

And we have got something else for you, Katie, as well,

51:01

which Fion is just bringing into studio a

51:04

small envelope. And I'm glad you said what

51:06

you said a little while ago. If you just want to pull

51:08

that envelope open and describe to

51:10

the listeners what you are seeing.

51:11

Okay, so this is fantastic. So

51:14

this is a greeting card. It

51:16

has a drawing of

51:19

Andy Warhol in front of his Marilyn Monroe

51:22

triptych. And he's saying,

51:25

WTF Billy.

51:26

And

51:30

notes from Fion and Anna are stalwart

51:33

producers. Thank

51:36

you, guys.

51:37

So, Katie,

51:39

that is the end for now. Let's finish with

51:42

a message from listener James. This

51:44

is what James has written in. James says, I worry

51:47

what I'll do in the fire part of my life ends. Me too. Well,

51:50

let me just say I have already realised

51:53

I will just go back to episode one and

51:55

start again. Easy. James says, thanks again

51:57

for a great show. It's been a great pleasure. to

52:00

share the journey with you all. Well, you know

52:02

what? Obviously, we would do this

52:04

in a darkened room all on our own with

52:06

a different expert every week. But the thing that makes

52:08

it important and wonderful is that you all

52:11

get to share it with us. So thank you for

52:13

making Weed and Start the Fire a

52:15

community and a communion.

52:17

We'll see you all soon.

52:19

Bye. Bye. Bye. Crowd

52:26

Network. A place where

52:28

you belong.