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of it that way. The aha moments,

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the breakthroughs, the LOLs,

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the connections, the occasional

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ugly cry. I'm missing so

1:07

terribly. I'm missing every single minute.

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The moments that mattered. The

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eye-opening life lessons. Never allow

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I'm bringing them back. It's

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1:27

single person you ever will meet

1:29

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1:31

to know, do you see me? Do

1:34

you hear me? Does what I say

1:36

mean anything to you? You

1:39

are listening to The Oprah Winfrey Show,

1:41

the podcast. Do

1:51

you remember thinking to yourself when you were a

1:53

child, when I grow up and become a parent,

1:55

I'm never going to treat my kids the way

1:57

my parents treated me. Chances are you broke that

1:59

promise. Because chances are if your parents beat

2:02

you, you beat your children. If your parents

2:04

verbally abuse you, you yell at your kids.

2:06

It goes on and on and on. The

2:08

cycle very rarely breaking.

2:11

What we're now learning as adults that all of

2:14

those words that you hear as a kid and

2:16

the way you are treated affects the way you

2:18

then lead your life. And so for

2:20

a lot of you who are still having problems

2:22

in your life, it all goes back to the

2:24

words that you heard as a child. You probably

2:27

know when you're treating your kids just the way

2:29

you vowed you'd never treat them. The

2:31

most difficult thing in life is

2:33

breaking that cycle. Perhaps today

2:36

we will give you the first few steps

2:38

to beginning to breaking the cycle. You're going

2:40

to meet a family, perhaps like

2:42

your family or my family, that

2:44

could not break the cycle. They

2:46

have spent the last 20 years

2:48

in a cycle of abuse. Marion

2:51

Helton Harmon grew up in a violently

2:53

abusive household, then married a man just

2:56

like her father who was also violent.

2:58

And these are her four children. They

3:00

have lived a childhood much the same

3:02

as her own. 40-year-old Rick says he

3:04

has been in and out of abusive

3:07

relationships his whole life. He killed his

3:09

abusive father when he was 18 years old. 37-year-old

3:12

Ralph is married with a child says

3:14

he grew up to be an alcoholic

3:17

just like his father. 35-year-old Kathy, married

3:19

for the second time, admits it's very

3:21

difficult to show any emotion to her

3:24

own children and she suffers a lot

3:26

from depression. 27-year-old Karen is single

3:28

saying she can't find a successful

3:31

relationship because she continually smothers her

3:33

boyfriends until they leave her. Welcome

3:35

the Helton's to the show. I'm

3:43

really glad you all are doing this

3:45

because this is like so many other

3:47

people's families that most people can't admit

3:49

it and more importantly don't understand how

3:51

the cycle works. You did. Yes.

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Ashley for the love of home. I

5:11

have watched my children for the

5:13

last 20 years try to outgrow

5:15

their childhood. Their childhood

5:17

was very traumatic and I realized I

5:19

was a willing yet

5:21

unwilling participant in this. And I

5:23

recognized that after all

5:26

these years that I basically acted

5:28

out my mother's role. My mother said

5:31

bye while we were being abused and

5:34

wrung her hands. I didn't

5:36

do quite that but I stood by helplessly

5:39

and watched my children be abused. So

5:41

tell us about the abuse in your

5:43

family. In my family as a child my

5:46

father was extremely abusive. However the

5:48

really interesting part in my family

5:51

is my father never abused me.

5:54

He abused my brother and my

5:56

sister and I used to step between my

5:58

father and whoever he was. The building and

6:00

he would pop beer fan. So no

6:02

one of my family liked me including

6:05

my mother and her. They.

6:07

Did not like. you know because I didn't

6:09

get abused. So. After

6:12

graduating high school I marry young man

6:14

and there with. My God himself

6:16

an. Alcoholic or her. There. Was

6:18

no alcoholism and know abuse in

6:20

the beginning. And and so when

6:23

my husband became abusive and turned

6:25

alcohol, I felt I recreated my

6:27

father for him. And then it

6:30

seems that the abuse began an

6:32

hourlong into the marriage before. All

6:35

the children were. I think I can't

6:37

really remember him there when it on

6:39

instantly right? I think the boys were

6:42

small. Before. We moved California. You

6:44

all remember you about eight when you first

6:46

remember. Recall: your father beamed is. Yeah,

6:49

do you remember that circumstance or do

6:51

you just remember the feeling of? I

6:53

don't remember the feeling. I've been in

6:55

therapy for years trying to get in

6:57

contact with the feeling. I remember the

6:59

instances and I can talk about them

7:02

but I don't have the feeling that

7:04

I felt and at that time, but

7:06

I can remember that different times I

7:08

was beaten and I can remember the

7:10

anxiety that I felt it constantly. From

7:12

day to day I can feel that

7:14

anxiety. I still haven't Anxiety. Do

7:17

remember you will remember being beaten. Do

7:20

remember how old you were when it started.

7:22

What was your first recollection. Of being afraid

7:24

of your father. Robert. Six

7:27

and who knows. Major thing was

7:29

that are you had to do

7:31

something with didn't fit in with

7:33

the way that you feel you

7:36

should be like following the i'm

7:38

like an exam room her if

7:40

you really feel different. He found

7:42

that out real easier though is

7:44

usually buys no major league when

7:46

after you would his feet. he

7:49

goes or with me mostly

7:51

because the your dog legs

7:53

really big football player you run

7:56

into him he would use literally

7:58

kick you around And

8:01

his shoulders seemed very big. What

8:03

did you say, Mary? I didn't protect them.

8:06

People ask me, how could you stand by and

8:09

allow your children to be abused? And

8:11

I have to ask myself these days, how could I

8:13

allow that? But I did. And so

8:15

when you would see your husband out

8:18

of control, beating the children, yelling at

8:20

the children in a

8:22

manic rage, what would you do? Generally,

8:28

in a very nice way,

8:30

try to get him to stop. It was always like, I

8:33

think part of mine was, I grew up

8:36

with this overwhelming thing in that generation, don't

8:39

let the neighbors know. So we

8:41

always tried to quiet everything

8:43

down. Call you nodding because quiet

8:45

beating. So don't holler, the

8:47

neighbors will hear, don't say anything,

8:50

and plead with whoever it

8:52

is to stop. But

8:55

don't go any farther than that. And

8:57

so I wasn't as effective as a mother

8:59

as I wished I would have been. And I'm still living

9:01

with that guilt and all that feeling. And

9:04

what did the neighbors think of you then? Did the neighbors

9:06

think you were a perfect little family? Yes. We

9:09

would step out of our front door

9:11

looking like we thought everybody else looked

9:14

like, and then

9:16

go back in the house and

9:19

really have this feeling that it's not okay,

9:21

and you kind of get sick at your

9:24

stomach. I think all of us experienced that.

9:26

The anxiety, the constant tension. It's

9:29

a constant tension. You can't

9:31

describe it until you're older

9:33

and you realize that why are you feeling this

9:35

way all the time? It's because

9:37

you're so accustomed to feeling that way

9:39

that you don't know how else to feel. You

9:42

never knew what was going to happen. Always

9:44

trying to hide and not believing in

9:46

yourself. And at the time that it's

9:48

happening, do you realize that that's what's making you feel

9:50

that way? I do now. Only

9:53

since I've cut off being

9:55

an Alcoholic. It's been a

9:58

half year and a half. Vancouver

10:01

I'd buy with my for other because

10:03

or create a lot of it. Also,

10:05

in the later years. And

10:08

he had. Singing.

10:10

Myself resembling something, I

10:12

defy it cannot. Stand

10:15

Up. In Gary,

10:17

a national to me to watch my

10:19

children go through this and feel if

10:21

I had been a better mother this

10:24

wouldn't have happened. Each other return to

10:26

their own really and way of dealing

10:28

with? Yeah for Ralph it is. It

10:31

was alcohol. Can you talk a little

10:33

bit more about Because to detach the

10:35

rest of the show today trying to

10:38

break the cycle and what you have

10:40

to first realizes that it is. A

10:43

cycle. Well, what it feels like

10:45

when you see yourself. Mirrored

10:48

in the image of your father. But you

10:50

do Can't stop. Can help from being

10:52

that when. Does. Away

10:54

with legacy urea half ago versus

10:57

mainly because when you pollute your

10:59

brain. You have

11:01

no control of yourself and

11:03

so basically we're. Seeing

11:06

more the right in a loved

11:08

one. I have very fortunate though.

11:11

Them otherwise. On seeing myself, who

11:13

could this possibly progress at a

11:16

later time to I am what

11:18

I despise Them out there might

11:20

be com what I cannot fathom.

11:23

Ralph. We were saying that

11:25

recognizing that you have become

11:27

what you despise. Is is really

11:29

the the first step to trying to

11:32

change it. To show and. Women

11:34

who continued it could could put

11:37

themselves in that relationship. And

11:39

I remember being in several bad relationship

11:41

and when I recognize that I wish

11:44

fulfilling a pattern of other women in

11:46

my family was the first realization that

11:48

I've gotta. Stop. To change this. but

11:50

it's. A horrible thing. Because as

11:52

a kid you go up. Into I will Never do

11:54

this. I will never let a person treat me

11:57

this way. I will never do. That and then

11:59

you find your. The think. That

12:01

you're sworn you'd never he never. do you

12:03

want your know that feeling blue haired girl.

12:06

Before if we're married and torture and com

12:08

alcohol is an unlimited data and pillow for

12:10

some reason I think would be to became

12:12

most of it as I would have him

12:15

with our friends know that I never had

12:17

to have a just for you never drink

12:19

a cup. I was only one before I

12:21

touched anything and I was always around other

12:24

people that were drinking in there was a

12:26

i swore up and down no way because

12:28

no of how I despise what he wants.

12:32

His just came to be twenty one and

12:34

it was really crazy year. I was

12:36

starting what I despise the most and

12:39

never really realizing that just when I

12:41

was doing. How bad was it

12:43

For years? It it was pretty. Dad I

12:45

fell down. A lot

12:47

of the blame for everything. I mean

12:50

I was. I felt blame cooking for

12:52

one. I a lot

12:54

of blame for that have been going out with my

12:56

fault that. Our all the happiness

12:58

by an unborn that he

13:00

would be offering something. They

13:03

are you ever told and or was it something

13:05

you felt you were told it on many many

13:07

distilling was that he wouldn't got married if I

13:10

only gotten pregnant and I think that's an old

13:12

story to lot people have heard for her and

13:14

yet we were engaged in he bought a wedding

13:16

ring wedded though it was not valid and with

13:18

has a with his way. I realize now. Have

13:22

making up for his own inadequacies. But

13:24

unfortunately kids suffer from the My mark

13:26

and I think he suffered the most

13:29

of all my children. You believe that

13:31

with. Only because

13:33

I was the oldest an ugly that there

13:35

are a lot of blame for him As

13:37

if they made a mistake, they got hit.

13:39

I got here because I should know better.

13:43

From a lot of responsibility. For.

13:45

Se Kids. What

13:48

is it feel like to be told that? I was.

13:50

Showing ever boy mean what does

13:52

that do to your spirit? your

13:54

personhood? your? It wasn't just been

13:56

told that it was said. You.

13:58

Never think be doing. right. I

14:01

mean if I was a straight A student I cheated

14:03

if I got B's and C's I was destined

14:06

for disaster. So it was a

14:08

no win situation, very negative. I

14:10

mean it was like you never did anything right. I

14:13

never did anything right. Did anybody

14:17

in the family? We didn't do anything. Karen

14:19

was the favorite. I was the favorite. As

14:22

David called me now the princess of the

14:24

family. My father was very protective over

14:26

me and anyone that tried to do anything to

14:28

me was beaten, was punished

14:30

for it. We've been a very separate

14:33

family. Even when

14:35

there were beatings nobody

14:37

ever came to me and said I'm

14:40

sorry this happened to you because

14:42

it was like you were alone.

14:44

You were left alone in whatever

14:46

room you were beaten and it

14:49

went about the next day. You did what you had to do.

14:51

It was like commonplace. So we

14:54

never communicated our family. So

14:57

if you were being beat and Rick who's also

14:59

experienced being beat he wouldn't come to comfort you

15:01

and say it's okay. I'd never see anyone. And

15:03

you didn't either. The biggest thing on that

15:05

would be out of fear. A lot of

15:07

guilt. Fear that if you had gotten involved

15:09

with them or asking why or you know

15:11

dad did it. He's going to turn around

15:14

and beat you also so out of straight,

15:16

straight fear you're not going to associate with him.

15:19

So doesn't that make everybody grow up being

15:21

very cold toward each

15:23

other? Negativity. If

15:25

there's ever any major incident in this and

15:27

that you can bet we'll always be together.

15:30

Always. There is the love there. There is

15:32

that there. But the communication and the positive

15:34

feelings of each other. Which is what a

15:36

family is. That's what a family means. That's

15:38

what a family is supposed to be. This

15:41

is what we never had. You can give

15:43

hugs. It hasn't been until recently that we

15:45

can turn around and give hugs to each

15:47

other and you can feel your whole soul

15:49

and body. Meaning just what you're doing. And

15:52

not just perfunctory thanksgiving gathering. You're not just a

15:54

people or a fish. It's functional family. Because you

15:56

do that. They don't know what is normal.

16:00

You don't know what is normal because you've

16:02

never lived in a normal family. You've

16:04

lived in a dysfunctional family. But everybody

16:06

pretends like your mother wanted to carry

16:08

on the facade of the perfect family.

16:10

And we all had two separate personalities.

16:12

Really? Basically. One in

16:14

public and one at home. One in public and one at home. There was one

16:16

for the public and there was one at home. And basically that's how

16:18

we grew up, having two different,

16:21

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16:57

so bad? The answer, the ingredients. But fear

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a living? We'll find out next week on Plant Killers. We'll

17:10

find out next week on Plant Killers. We'll find out next week on Plant Killers.

17:12

We'll find out next week on Plant Killers. We'll find out next week on Plant

17:14

Killers. We'll find out next week on Plant Killers. and

17:37

on your family. Would we think, you know, if we

17:39

were to look at your house in the morning, the

17:41

kids getting off to school and coming home from school,

17:43

would we think this was just a normal

17:45

American family? Yeah. Yes.

17:49

And I think it went beyond that. For me, the

17:51

hardest part was, and one of the kids said,

17:53

I think it was Ralph, there

17:56

were times when life really worked for all

17:58

of us. We would go on picnics. My

18:00

husband would be very kind and I

18:02

would tell myself it's

18:05

going to be okay. Things

18:07

are changing. He's not going to

18:09

run around. I'm okay and

18:11

he really loves me. I devoted

18:14

my life to

18:16

making him happy instead

18:19

of my kids. Had you any idea how

18:21

you were impacting your children at the time? No.

18:24

And that's why if anyone could just

18:26

realize it and get out of it. I

18:29

do realize that Karen was the youngest and

18:31

she suffered the least. Rick was the

18:34

oldest and he suffered the most. Don't

18:36

you think one of the reasons why people don't realize

18:38

it is, and this just occurred this thought just occurred

18:40

to me, is because we

18:42

see children as separate from human

18:45

beings or as a whole person. And

18:47

so the childhood is one thing and then when they

18:49

grow up they're sort of like on their own. And

18:52

people don't recognize that it is the whole

18:54

person that you are affecting

18:56

and that when you abuse a child

18:59

that carries over into the way that

19:01

person, that person who is a child

19:03

at that time feels about him or herself. Absolutely.

19:05

But you don't know it at the time? No.

19:08

None of us know it at the time. We grow up role

19:10

playing from our mother who chances are

19:12

got it from her mother and they

19:15

don't have classes on parenting how to teach

19:18

you to be a parent. They're just now

19:20

starting to do that and Kathy's in one.

19:22

Yeah. I'm in

19:24

a parenting group right now because

19:27

I have problems with my children. Both of

19:29

my children have low self-esteem and I always

19:31

thought that I never

19:33

did anything that my father did to me with

19:36

my kids. I went just the opposite way

19:38

and I smothered them with too

19:40

much attention and love because

19:42

I never abused them physically. But

19:45

I think I yell a lot at my kids and

19:48

I probably say things that I shouldn't say. Not

19:51

you do. Quite that bad. I do it.

19:53

Therefore I have two teenage daughters

19:56

and I have one now that's

19:58

in placement. She's on probation. We

20:00

ran away from home for two years straight. Absolutely

20:02

no self-esteem. But

20:04

a very creative, beautiful child. Right. I

20:07

don't know where I went wrong. I thought it was

20:10

just the opposite of what he did wrong. So you

20:12

overcompensated. I overcompensated. But it still happens.

20:15

So it happened with my kids. So they have to go on

20:17

with their kids now. How do you

20:19

think, Rick, you were most affected? The

20:22

damage is still being done. But

20:25

how has the abuse

20:27

that you suffered as a child impacted

20:29

your adult life? I

20:32

don't know. Maybe the fear of failure,

20:34

insecurity, things like

20:36

that. I almost got into

20:38

the cycle myself. When I was about 10 years

20:41

old, I came home. And

20:43

it wasn't really a fight. And

20:46

he asked me if I wanted a loss. And I told him

20:48

I lost. So I got beat up for losing

20:50

a fight. And what I didn't tell him was that

20:53

people were a couple

20:55

years older. And it was two against

20:57

one. Consequently, don't lose

21:00

again. And I become a

21:02

really good fighter. I mean, I went back. And

21:04

I've seen those two people again. They come up.

21:06

They tried the same thing. And I

21:08

fought them. And they never bothered

21:10

me again. So I thought, well, this

21:12

works. You know what I mean? You

21:14

know, that if you're not intimidated, and

21:17

if you fight back, to leave you alone. But

21:19

constantly. So the message is violence works. Yeah, it

21:21

was. It was a message of violence work. People

21:23

didn't bother me. If they knew I was ready

21:25

to fight, I'd drop them a pin. They

21:28

left me alone. Something happened

21:30

to me, though. I was in the

21:32

hospital. I had osteomyelitis, which is a

21:34

bone deterioration. And something really changed my

21:37

life. I was 12 or 13 years old. And

21:42

I was in there. And they were talking about cutting

21:45

off my foot. And this and that. And I was

21:47

thinking about committing suicide. I mean, I

21:49

blame myself for everything. And I thought, this is

21:51

it. I can't handle this anymore. And

21:54

they put me in a children's ward. I

21:56

was miserable in there. And kids were

21:58

crying and screaming. this and that. And I

22:01

mean, I told this nurse, you know, can't you just

22:03

keep these kids quiet? And

22:05

she was a big influence on my life because she said,

22:07

instead of laying there feeling sorry for

22:09

yourself, why don't you go around and talk to these

22:11

kids? You know, and tell them that,

22:13

hey, everything's going to be all right. And

22:15

so I started doing that. And

22:17

it was the first time in my life that I ever felt

22:19

good about myself. I was doing

22:22

good instead of being

22:25

violent or whatever. I was doing good. And

22:28

you were rewarded for it or at least

22:30

compensated in terms of feeling good. Yeah, I

22:32

felt good about myself. I felt so good

22:34

to bring me this book. It was

22:36

like Jack Armstrong, The All-American

22:39

Boy. And I tried to be

22:41

like that. I

22:43

tried to be, you know, on the side of truth,

22:45

justice in the American way. And that

22:47

was my escape was.

22:50

And after that, I really didn't feel like fighting

22:52

anymore. Do you feel you're still suffering? Yes,

22:55

I've thought about that just recently because I tried

22:57

to put it all behind and say that was

23:00

a long time ago. And I'm a different person

23:02

and all those things have been buried. But

23:05

I thought about it. And yeah, some of them do

23:07

carry over. How do

23:09

you all feel about your mother? Because your

23:11

mother stood by and watched you

23:13

get kicked around, Ralph, and watched your father

23:15

scream at you and throw food and watched

23:18

all of this abuse for all those years.

23:20

So, you know, I ask you to be as honest

23:22

as you can be with your mother sitting here, what

23:24

your feelings are about her. Come on, Kip. Well,

23:27

my abuse started after my father

23:30

died. And it wasn't in terms

23:32

of violent abuse. It was in terms of neglect. My

23:35

mother, after my father died, was free.

23:39

And she went hog

23:41

wild out into the world. And since I

23:43

was so young, I was

23:46

seven. I didn't have a

23:48

mother figure. And I developed a

23:50

mother figure in my sister. She

23:52

was the one that was the youngest. She would

23:54

have been 15. And she basically became my mother.

23:57

And I hated my mother for many years. And

24:01

once I realized that I was becoming just like

24:03

her, I went into therapy. Becoming

24:05

like her how? I was

24:07

becoming neurotic. I

24:10

don't mean it in the bad sense,

24:12

you know, overly neurotic. Okay, Larry. But

24:14

there were tendencies that she had in

24:16

my childhood, constant cleaning, constant, you know,

24:19

fixing of things. I was just nervous.

24:21

I was nervous all the

24:23

time. I had a lot of anxiety. And

24:26

once I got into therapy and realized that

24:28

it wasn't so bad, you know,

24:30

that she wasn't a bad person, she

24:33

did the best she could with what

24:35

she had to go by. Which wasn't

24:38

much from her family. Right. Because

24:40

she was in an abusive situation. Once

24:42

I looked back on the history, it was a lot easier for

24:44

me. Too accept. Right, but there were

24:47

months, almost a year, that we

24:49

didn't speak. Because

24:51

I did not want to speak with her. I did not

24:53

want to associate with her. But I encouraged you to go

24:55

into therapy. Yes, she did. During that

24:58

time, she would reject me, she

25:00

would hate me, she would go through all those. But

25:02

I felt since she

25:05

was the youngest, if she got into

25:07

therapy, she would perhaps quit

25:09

attracting or quit getting into... Relationships.

25:13

Right. And I have changed that then. Were

25:15

you attracted bad people all the time?

25:18

Alcoholics, people with substance abuse. You

25:20

know, I was never beaten in any of my relationships.

25:23

And I took that as being good. I

25:25

wasn't violently beaten, so it was okay. But

25:28

I was very comfortable with that. It

25:30

goes back to what Kathy says. Because when

25:32

you're in a situation where your... What

25:35

was the word you used? It's dysfunctional. You're

25:38

in a dysfunctional family, you don't even know what normal is.

25:40

Exactly. And because somebody's not beating

25:42

you over the head, you think... This is normal, right?

25:45

You know, even though all of

25:47

my relationships were basically crisis relationships.

25:50

And I was very comfortable in that. Because

25:52

you're used to being in a crisis. Right. And when

25:54

I didn't have a crisis, I became depressed. Very

25:57

depressed. Nothing was happening. Boring.

26:00

exactly boring and now I'm very comfortable

26:02

with that feeling. It's a nice feeling.

26:04

And my concern was in doing this,

26:06

and we discussed this last night, that

26:08

after this is over, that they're all going

26:10

to go home and they're all going to be depressed and I'm

26:12

going to feel guilty. And

26:14

I asked myself, where does the guilt

26:16

ever end? How long is

26:19

another responsible for killing? I don't think you are

26:21

going to feel guilty after doing this. I really

26:23

don't. I think it's for a lot of

26:25

people coming on the show, and it's easier. I

26:27

mean, you discover things on the show and say

26:29

things that you cannot say in your own

26:32

dining room to each other, and it's very cathartic. I

26:34

think you will all be a lot better. And I'm

26:36

not just saying it because I'm glad to have you

26:38

here and do a show and get ratings for it.

26:41

But I really think you all will be a lot better and a lot of other people will

26:44

begin to see themselves. What

26:46

do you think, Rick? I think it's good because I

26:48

hated my mother also because I hated her because she was

26:51

weak and that I felt that

26:53

I had a lot more responsibility. I was already

26:55

kind of responsible for the kids. And

26:57

it seemed like whenever there was a crisis, it would be, Rick,

27:00

what are we going to do about it? You

27:02

know what I mean? Rick, he's going to kill us. He's going to

27:04

kill me. And consequently, I

27:06

would get up there and take a lot

27:08

of the abuse. And I felt I was

27:10

taking that for her. So

27:14

I resented for that. I thought I was too young to

27:16

have to have all that burden. You were too young. Yeah,

27:18

I thought I was too young for that. And the truth

27:20

is, you were too young.

27:22

Yeah. And I'm also drawn

27:24

to people that are in crisis. But

27:27

you've just discovered that within the last

27:29

month or two. We all are. Yeah.

27:32

They're in trouble. I

27:34

know what it is to be alone, so I try to

27:36

fill that void for them. You say that your

27:38

mom was always looking to you for help. I

27:40

felt that way. Yes. And

27:43

it was true. And it was true. Yeah. You

27:45

remember seeing your mother abused? Kathy? Yeah,

27:47

there was one instance that stands out in my

27:50

mind. My father held a knife to my mother's

27:52

throat, and he told me to

27:54

go in and fix dinner. Well, I was eight years old.

27:57

I had never fixed dinner in my life. And I was a

27:59

friend of mine. if I didn't do it right, he would kill

28:01

her. So I

28:04

did fix dinner that night. It was very

28:06

difficult, but I made what I

28:08

thought was dinner. And she was not killed. Do you

28:10

remember the bottom door of the refrigerator? The whole, when

28:12

I opened the refrigerator, both the doors fell out. And

28:14

I thought for sure she was dead and we were

28:17

dead. But everything turned out

28:19

okay that night. And

28:21

we ate. Do you remember that? Were

28:23

you home? No, I was just wondering, sometimes he

28:25

would do that. He would come home in a rage

28:28

like that. And he always wanted to have, was

28:30

that? Willed in

28:32

letters. You had to have your bacon

28:34

with it and all that. There were these nights when

28:36

I wanted to take a pot of pan and beam

28:39

over the head. But

28:42

there was this fear that we lived under, and

28:44

I think many people do, that he

28:46

would take the pan away from me and

28:50

beat me over the head, and then my children would be

28:52

all alone. What

28:54

is the most abusive situation you remember, when you

28:56

were in the garage, seeing your mother placed under? When

28:59

he had a party, we

29:02

had made a bar in the garage,

29:04

turned it into a barbecue, everything. And

29:07

he had a big party, and it was for

29:09

people at the refinery. And

29:13

that's where he was majorly working. Everybody

29:15

was there, and he came out

29:17

with straight moonshine whiskey,

29:20

I guess you want to call it. It's

29:22

straight alcohol. And he

29:24

mixed that in with the punches and

29:27

that. And it came to be where

29:29

my mom held off because she cannot

29:31

handle alcohol whatsoever. And

29:33

I came around to midnight, and

29:36

she had some of

29:39

the punch. And she

29:41

had gone outside because I want something

29:43

that strong also that you know, to

29:46

tear your stomach up. And

29:48

she was outside and kind of

29:51

regurgitating, throwing up. And a friend

29:53

of his came out and was

29:55

holding her up and holding

29:57

her head. And my dad

29:59

came out. and thought that they were having

30:01

an affair. I would say that comes

30:03

right. So he's like, well,

30:06

see, I would say that. How romantic. He

30:10

was a good one. I would say that

30:12

a lot of that he had in mind also, because that's

30:14

what always he was doing. So

30:16

he was more or less labeling that as

30:19

going on. But she went beating

30:21

very badly. I think I had a couple broken

30:23

toes and then threw me a dress.

30:26

But that wasn't until after what he had

30:28

done was we had all the raspberry bushes

30:30

and this and that and against that wall.

30:32

It's a small wall. And that. He crammed

30:34

y'all through that because you were torn up

30:37

and just scraped all badly before

30:39

he took you in the house. He got you

30:41

in the house quick because he didn't want anybody

30:43

to see what he had just done outside. And

30:46

when he had taken you in the rooms, he turned

30:49

around, figured you want to play around this and that.

30:51

He stomped on your feet. There goes three toes. There

30:53

goes your face. There goes your arm. Well,

30:55

I wound up in the hospital three different

30:57

New Year's. It's like the girls say, we

31:00

lived in a constant crisis situation. And so

31:02

you just, he was always waiting for the

31:04

other shoe to fall. And

31:06

it was almost a relief when

31:08

things were going good. It was almost

31:11

a relief when the other shoe fell because

31:13

then it was like now you could

31:15

get on to the next one. Yeah,

31:17

you had a little more free time coming up. You survived

31:19

that one. Yeah. You survived that one.

31:22

No broken bones. The night you

31:24

killed your father, what happened? I

31:27

think it was in the afternoon. And

31:29

it's really tough for me to say because

31:31

I came home from work

31:34

and this was already in progress. It was

31:36

the night before that was the

31:38

most vivid memory when I

31:42

don't know exactly. Their father put

31:45

a shotgun in Kathy's stomach and was going to

31:48

kill her because there was some money missing. I

31:51

decided for once in my life to call

31:53

the police. And so I sent Ralph after

31:55

the police. The Police

31:58

came and he acted like nothing was wrong. Normal

32:00

guy and that the please allowed

32:02

him to lead in his camper

32:05

with his gun and they go

32:07

to nearest phone booth and he

32:09

calls me and says either thirty

32:11

up thick aimed at you consider

32:13

yourself dead because you're called police

32:15

for the very thing I had

32:17

feared. Mouth was finally coming so

32:20

that night three brothers and sisters

32:22

wouldn't be killed raped. Murdered

32:24

or gun. On

32:26

for. Go for her

32:28

to write a rule. Remember that day

32:30

with so quick that I only remember

32:33

couple things about the whole day. To

32:35

tell you to buy omaha a block

32:37

down on whether to go to serve.

32:39

It was a shock even dinnertime him

32:41

coming out dinner. Nine he yeah be

32:43

within the kitchen. It was my mother dinner

32:45

burger day and we were fixing dinner for

32:47

her life went on as though I didn't

32:50

even tell my parents. However, my husband come

32:52

home at afternoon and him my father was

32:54

sitting in the garage. Drinking beer

32:56

my husband said the my father and were

32:58

cut up a little pieces and give it

33:01

back to. You. From.

33:03

Rick had loaded gun the night before

33:06

to protect his brother, sister, the myself.

33:08

so. After the police left

33:10

the gun jammed with couldn't unloaded site i'm

33:12

a closet United put it away the next

33:15

night as I come home and I walked

33:17

to the garage door into the house and

33:19

he grabbed me on the shoulder. Throws:

33:22

Me across the room and I

33:24

land on Karen, who was legally

33:26

coloring unaware of everything and reckon.

33:29

I. Had position himself across in the

33:31

open garage door. With. It.

33:34

Jammed gun in hand to scare on

33:36

the scare him and of my husband

33:38

came through do member district. Know

33:40

I only remember him coming out Me: i'm

33:42

i'm looking revised I remember how both handcuff

33:45

for and the roof of a block.i have

33:47

to go by what somebody elses. and

33:50

i'm kind of recreated the because i'm trying

33:52

to write the story and for i've i've

33:54

gone through this the last year and a

33:57

half many times until i finally have lived

33:59

it enough times and with the kids

34:01

help. Why are you trying to write it? Why do you want

34:03

to write it? Same

34:05

reason I rely on you to come here,

34:08

that I really feel if anybody can understand,

34:10

you know, get the hell out

34:12

of abusive situations. And

34:14

more than that is I think for the last

34:16

20 years that Rick has felt that

34:19

he did something wrong and he really didn't

34:21

do anything wrong. He stood there gun in

34:23

hand and his father lunged

34:26

at him and I didn't know this until I read the

34:28

autopsy report this year. The

34:31

position of entry of the bullet, he

34:33

didn't shoot him straight on. It

34:35

entered his heart and went down through his body

34:38

which meant he grasped it. And

34:41

so we lived without reading this, under

34:44

this, whatever you want to call it, all these years. Nobody

34:47

ever talked about it. Nobody ever bammered about it.

34:49

And I avoided it most of all because he

34:53

killed himself. And we didn't even

34:55

know that and Rick didn't know it until a few months

34:57

ago. So I thought, this

35:00

is really helping us to talk about it. And

35:02

it's not easy. Rick, can you

35:04

discover, God, that is something, that is

35:06

something. When you discover a few

35:09

months ago that you really didn't pull the

35:11

trigger? I had

35:13

to go by what people said, like I said. Because

35:15

all these years you believed you did it. I felt

35:18

for it right there. All these years you believed you did it? Yeah,

35:20

I believed I did it. I knew he was coming at

35:22

me. I was supposedly

35:24

against the wall but I believe I pulled the

35:27

trigger, yes. Up until you read the autopsy? I've

35:30

never read the autopsy. Meet

35:33

James Gaborino who is a president of

35:35

the Erickson Institute for Advanced Study of

35:37

Child Development and author of several books

35:39

on child abuse including The Psychologically Batter

35:41

Child and Understanding Abusive Families. His book

35:44

is The Future as if it Really

35:46

Mattered. We're glad to have you here.

35:48

To share with us, how do you

35:50

break the cycle? I

35:52

think you have to recognize that

35:54

what's normal about this family situation

35:57

is that families develop momentum. It

35:59

can be positive. of momentum or negative momentum.

36:01

They develop a view of the world that

36:03

reflects what they see. And

36:05

unless that view is challenged by

36:07

other people, by other influences, they simply

36:09

bring that map of the world to

36:11

their own families. And if they

36:13

were taught to be a victim, they look for

36:15

that role in life to be a victim. If

36:18

they're taught to hurt people, that's what comes naturally.

36:20

The way that people break that cycle is

36:23

by finding some kinds of relationships, either

36:25

in the family or outside the family,

36:27

to really process their experience. When you

36:29

heard today people are talking about things

36:31

they never talked about before. They're learning

36:33

things about each other. They never knew

36:36

before. That's the fundamental problem. How

36:38

do you begin that process? How did you

36:40

all do it? It's taken 20 years, Mary,

36:42

and what happened? I

36:45

was interviewed by a newspaper and she said

36:47

you'd ought to write a book. And I

36:50

said, I don't want to do this. I

36:52

just don't want to. And she convinced me that

36:55

if I did this, it would help my family and it

36:57

might help others. And

36:59

it has helped because once

37:02

we put it out here in writing

37:04

about it, we were no longer accusing

37:06

each other and really weren't

37:08

questioning each other. But every family isn't going

37:10

to write a book about it. Or every

37:12

mother isn't going to sit down and try

37:14

to catalog for herself. Then go for therapy.

37:17

Then therapy. Yes. Well,

37:20

therapy or finding other people to tell your

37:22

story to. Do you look for a self-help

37:24

group, a mutual help group, adult children of

37:26

alcoholics? There are parents anonymous groups. You

37:29

can find them in almost any community nowadays. You

37:31

can go through your church group. There are people

37:33

out there now, which is different from what was

37:35

true 20 years ago. There are lots of people

37:37

out there willing to talk with you. And

37:40

that talking is the first step to making

37:42

that cycle stop. Do you all think you will

37:44

ever reach a point where you've healed all of the hurt? Rick?

37:48

No. No. No, I don't. You

37:52

know, people who go through this, in a way, the

37:54

best outcome is that they end up with a kind

37:56

of emotional limp, in the sense that

37:58

they can make it through. life but they're not

38:01

doing everything. If you don't go through this process

38:03

you end up as emotional cripple and that's a

38:05

lot worse. Well I cannot

38:07

thank you enough, this entire family,

38:10

for coming on and sharing your story. You

38:12

know, throw the word courage around a lot but

38:14

it is a very courageous thing to do to

38:16

expose yourself this way on national television

38:19

and I know a lot of people's lives will be helped

38:21

as a result of it and I thank you, thank you for

38:23

doing it, I really do. I appreciate it. I'm

38:31

Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to

38:34

the Oprah Winfrey show, The Podcast. If

38:36

you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts

38:39

and subscribe, rate and review this podcast.

38:41

Join me next week for another Oprah

38:44

show, The Podcast. And I

38:46

thank you for listening. Some

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