0:00

the sexual revolution lied, to

0:02

us, promising liberation

0:04

satisfaction and happiness it

0:06

is delivered pain confusion and

0:08

destruction author louise perry argues,

0:11

from a secular feminist perspective

0:13

that abandoning christian regulations

0:15

on marriage and sex has gotten

0:17

this year and she's got some fascinated

0:20

advice on how we can recover from

0:22

the brokenness caused by sexual liberalism

0:24

is episode is brought to you our friends

0:27

at good good-ranchers dot com sally

0:31

sally

0:41

the thank you so much for joining

0:43

ice before we get started can you tell us

0:45

who you are would she do

0:47

i mean perry i'm

0:50

a journalist and author they send

0:52

them send me text

0:53

and you are above the case

0:55

against the sexual revolution a

0:57

new guy to sacks and the twenty

1:00

first century before you get into the

1:02

content of the bug can you first set us up

1:04

why did you write

1:09

are you a decade swag

1:12

even i wrote it pretty quickly arose

1:15

have basically between them learning

1:17

i was pregnant with my son and his name

1:19

six months old which wasn't very clever

1:22

i can just as anyone listening is considering

1:24

writing a book at the center is having a baby i would fight

1:26

against sit back and

1:29

displays and some me my first

1:31

job out of university sweaty and a rape crisis

1:33

center and i've

1:35

and since work to san campaigner

1:38

on such violence and the law and

1:41

, lot of my journalism has been focused on this

1:43

topic in offices if way so is something

1:45

that been thinking about for really long time

1:48

i'm i'm having a lot of conversations with young

1:50

women was

1:52

he was saying the same things you know there

1:54

is something seat the deeply wrong

1:57

the of actual culture and

1:59

it sounded narratives available to

2:02

us to progressive narrative about sex

2:04

revolution which says that this was all

2:07

for women sake you know that it was it

2:09

was all about maximizing our freedom and

2:11

it was grateful for it i think actually

2:14

if you look how

2:16

young women are actually experiencing the pace of revelation

2:18

era i just don't think it stacks up at

2:20

all for this the kisser it's

2:22

, interrogation if that not that that narrative

2:25

tell us what the sexual

2:27

revolution is how would you define

2:31

photos are they so t things one

2:34

is the the material aspect of

2:36

it sat that you have the pill

2:38

arising in the and

2:40

financing citizens to mention sixties and

2:42

just completely transforming am

2:46

and as a linked with reproduction

2:49

is the first time in history of the world it

2:51

suddenly becomes possible for women to suspend

2:53

their fertility in a way that they

2:56

can control and that is the

2:58

kind of invisible right and it's important

3:00

that we call it the still tell with capital letters

3:02

you know everyone knows what you're talking about when you talking

3:05

about lapels because if it's incredible

3:07

importance as though the only material

3:09

change the brings his hip i think it isn't in

3:12

a significant one and it's where i date the beginning

3:14

of the sexually and and the

3:17

need to say worthy archaeological stuff that comes along

3:19

with that wow that is it is

3:21

coming out the nineteen sixties in this was

3:23

an excuse me famines of the bicycle

3:25

would war era and , got

3:27

this really strong push to

3:29

is so tear down everything that's come

3:32

before and to question everything that's come

3:34

before and this is real kind of an

3:37

anti establishment urge

3:40

which also applies to sexuality

3:44

the you know what we've basically been

3:46

left us then

3:48

the revolution is it all

3:51

the old sexual norms and now suspect

3:54

and a peculiarly the

3:56

anything as they say she plays with

3:59

religion mean it's , should

4:01

be understood dollar the pay sixty

4:03

zero really nice be understood as a reaction against

4:05

christianity right kind of a second

4:07

reformation in that sense and

4:11

and what's the only principle

4:13

that's left standing is the principle of

4:15

consent a long way

4:17

if only everyone is capable of consenting

4:20

and they and they are enthusiastic making

4:22

some that everything's fine everything is on the table

4:24

in i am i my argument

4:27

is that actually that consent framework

4:29

the work it can plainly

4:32

pieces sky as a means is

4:34

actually trying to regulate and relationships

4:36

too many women which have far more complex

4:40

and difficult and high stakes the

4:42

napkins and from work permit

4:44

yes we've talked about that before we can

4:46

send is your only

4:48

determinant of what is virtuous

4:50

in what is not then

4:53

as he said a lot of things that are

4:55

actually immoral and exploitative

4:58

are on the table ah

5:00

i'm concerned is a

5:02

part of determining what is

5:04

good and what is not what is acceptable and

5:06

what is now but it's really the bare minimum

5:09

it is not as only standard

5:11

and that's how you can get these

5:13

maxims of the sexual revolution

5:15

or what i would call maximizes the sexual revolution

5:18

which is sex work is work

5:20

or there is such a thing eyes as

5:23

a core pornography or who cares

5:25

if these were then are singing about these things

5:27

doing these things if they're objectifying

5:29

themselves it's okay because

5:31

they are consenting to that

5:34

objectification tell us

5:36

a little bit more about the consequences

5:38

of this consent as

5:40

the only standard of

5:43

you can see culture that the sexual

5:45

revolution has created

5:48

the can i use in the fuck is some disenchantment

5:52

the idea that sex isa have

5:54

some so special status of natural splice

5:56

sacred status right in in

5:58

noticed in christianity him at

6:00

all religious traditions have some kind as an

6:03

sacredness surrounding sexton and booze about

6:05

when you can do it and with you and so forth but

6:09

what set what such was his enchantment

6:11

an idea does is it says that actually no

6:14

sex needn't be any more

6:16

significant than any other kind of social interaction

6:19

it can be completely morally neutral if people

6:21

wanna invest meaning and at the com that they don't

6:23

have t it can just be like shaking

6:25

hands or or whatever other kind of neutral

6:27

thing you want to imagine which ,

6:29

of course he kumbaya you can select

6:32

select getting objects

6:34

five south as much as he like that's fine

6:37

i'm the problem with that are this and chaman

6:40

when they're cheaper ones without ones is that the

6:43

really serious about saying that sex is a

6:45

different from other other plans to social interaction

6:49

then you can't continue to have special

6:51

status for rape frames exam

6:53

right off the sexual harassment of any

6:55

of these things fresh we know this you really feel

6:59

a different sense a test

7:02

and , law recognizes that and all of us

7:04

incisions recognize that that if you really

7:06

want to say that success he doesn't have any special status

7:08

and how can you possibly argue that rape should have special status

7:11

and nieces and the problem with such as disenchantment

7:14

that the follow it series

7:16

it's logical conclusion to actually has horrible

7:18

horrible outcomes which is why

7:20

basically no one does i know when actually lives

7:22

is essential disenchantment street people might

7:24

say that they day and they might retard

7:27

play kind of appeal to it what so

7:29

you get phrases like as you say sex workers

7:31

walk which , on designed

7:34

to kind of challenge us to say but what

7:36

is different about sex you know when it comes

7:38

down to it isn't isn't it just like working in mcdonald's

7:41

isn't it just like selling of the any other kind of

7:43

labor labor the problem you get down

7:45

to and those arguments is that

7:48

the different necessary especially for sex

7:50

is quite hot sweaty collate it's

7:52

not something that can easily be packaged

7:54

up initial of rational arguments because

7:57

it's because it's really do with arsenal as he says

7:59

he with emotion feeling and the kind

8:01

of dot level response that we

8:03

have as human beings to sex interaction

8:05

i think particularly the women

8:07

i mean what is it what is

8:09

the am ways and men and women different african

8:12

to the sexuality they're all sorts of them but but

8:14

one which is interesting and important

8:16

is that women have a much lower sasha discussed

8:18

threshold than men the humanity

8:21

things you can measure quite effectively by things

8:23

like sweating and

8:25

heart rate and things like that when it when we feel

8:27

disgusted when we have all these involuntary physical

8:30

responses but she can contest

8:32

for and ,

8:34

threshold for feelings i should discuss is a lot lower

8:36

than men's begat was his ku

8:38

klux really getting the egg when

8:41

, really just kind

8:43

of feel horribly repulsive and when i yeah

8:46

yeah i'm particularly i think when it's associated

8:48

with any kind of like such an obsession fear

8:51

combined with discuss which i dating

8:53

there's a word for as i mentioned the

8:55

book that i've every woman of space agency

8:58

says i i completely understand that

9:00

that feeling i know you feel it by in your bones

9:02

mastro say the the isn't isn't

9:05

a word for it and and

9:07

it's something that men are much less likely to parents

9:10

are a all comes down to the sat there in one

9:12

the fact that women are just physically vulnerable in way that

9:14

men aren't the christmas morning that some week of

9:16

the manor am but or

9:18

say that we're evolved

9:21

to have quite different sexuality

9:24

and quite different responses to things that

9:26

choosing a partner in a the nature of

9:28

getting pregnant is that heck

9:32

the huge consequential swim and potentially

9:34

because he thought a long pregnancy

9:36

is got dangerous labor is got many

9:38

many years as as a child path

9:42

that that's really important message

9:44

i if it's no wonder we're evolved

9:46

to be picky about who we want have sex with the

9:48

kids that states such consequence didn't want to be choosing

9:50

your a man he's not gonna stick around or whatever

9:53

whereas in theory men can have met

9:55

many met pussies every time they have sex

9:58

with basically know like physical fouls

10:02

which , which doesn't mean that men

10:04

like are always focused on just

10:06

having a promise as possible not at all that male

10:08

sexuality is respectable i

10:10

talking about cat and dad made

10:13

said dad made his of single focus towards

10:16

on marriage and family stability

10:18

and really like investing in your

10:20

in you in

10:22

you're selling price where it's hard

10:24

mode is all about seven you all day

10:28

that's a phrase that season america yes

10:31

yes yes this is if we don't think i'd

10:33

as much by i'd think that we know it's

10:35

you mean selling your wow that's increasingly unfamiliar

10:37

yes and and

10:39

then can you know

10:42

some men and more drawn to one source made

10:45

than the other that most many

10:47

capable of base and ,

10:49

about and it depends on context and it's

10:51

pins on his senses and what

10:53

kind of social structures are in place to

10:56

i seem to make that minutes but have one in

10:58

one are other ways and i think what's happened

11:00

percents revolution that we've we've got rid

11:02

of so many of the structures that used to exist

11:05

he regulate such relationships

11:08

which were oppressive right in a sense

11:10

in i mean this is often the

11:12

the argument defend the subs minutes made against marriage

11:15

is this marriage presses women

11:17

to it's a say yeah it does that you know

11:19

it depresses men as well and

11:22

it also actually interested

11:24

women and it also protects inches of men the whole

11:26

point of marriage is it is a restriction

11:30

you , up and for navarro unease and you promise

11:32

to be with this person preference be faithful to them

11:34

and seep into support them financially emotionally

11:36

socially everything everything he

11:38

signed a piece of paper to that fact

11:41

which places restrictions on your behavior

11:43

seattle basis you that's the point but

11:46

it also means that you it provides a staple

11:48

basis the form your life together

11:50

and to have children together and if you're a

11:53

if you're tearing down those claim

11:55

institutions that are in place to encourage

11:57

men into dad mode laughter

11:59

slay we shouldn't be surprised

12:02

to discover that actually

12:04

like male sexual misbehavior is a

12:06

it is so much same as easier

12:09

and so much less punish now yeah without

12:12

a structured in place kid as you as he sang consensus

12:14

isn't enough there is so much terrible behavior

12:17

which yeah jump say that

12:19

are very very low bomb that

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much to say in so many thought this

13:43

was his it isn't starting at the end succeed

13:46

without marriage been

13:48

oppressive what you mean when you say

13:50

marriage is oppressive is kind of what you explain

13:52

that it's oppressive in the sense that is is restrictive

13:56

it is it's

13:58

supposed to be a structure that in his the feel

14:00

from engaging in certain kinds of behavior

14:03

and stops you from doing some things that

14:05

you may want to deal by are

14:07

unhealthy both for their relationship

14:09

for your cage also for society

14:11

in general i would probably

14:13

say that it is more

14:16

than like repressive thin

14:18

oh oppressive i guess when i think of oh passes

14:21

i think as unjustly

14:23

holding someone down whereas repressive

14:25

might just be holding something back for better

14:27

for worse i would say that it

14:30

marriages you know the

14:32

institution of marriage anyway

14:34

is repressive in a healthy

14:36

way that yes it is holding

14:39

people back as you explain so well

14:41

fuck from things that are not

14:43

supposed to be acceptable in

14:45

the sounds of marriage

14:48

now what i'm interested to hear or are you

14:50

are you religious you consider yourself religious

14:53

now i'm coming at instruments and

14:56

effective suspected i mean i'm i'm

14:58

religious in the sense that i am

15:00

i think that's the all of this ah

15:05

i think the christian morality is

15:07

actually deeply deeply back then

15:09

too societies

15:12

right like t thousand years

15:14

as christian tradition didn't

15:17

, suddenly he since nineteen sixty

15:19

so i think that's a lot of what i'm writing

15:21

about in the book and i think one of the reasons that the book

15:23

is appeal to to christian

15:25

audience as well as such your audience ah

15:28

christian that she's which are universally

15:31

recognized even if they're not acknowledged

15:33

as being christian if that makes sense of things like

15:36

a sense as the week human

15:38

a key

15:40

these are not actually universal that

15:42

she's right and they certainly weren't considered

15:45

size incest and she roman world rights

15:47

see that these are christian virtues which i think

15:49

still resonates yes i'm

15:52

which is a complicated were saying sources

15:54

yeah then what is your question yes

15:56

in this is as i mean i'm a christian

15:58

as is a cushion podcast the that part of

16:00

why this is so interesting than one

16:02

thing that he said that really struck me as

16:05

absolutely true but also troublesome

16:08

maybe you could even argue like this is the

16:10

entire the problem

16:12

is that sacks cannot be rationally

16:16

explained as special as

16:18

something different than shaking your hands but

16:20

as you said everyone whether

16:22

they say so are not a good knowledge is

16:24

that it is in their repulsion

16:27

to sustain like rape or

16:29

i would say the vast majority of people

16:31

they would not yet they that there should

16:33

be the same punishment for someone

16:35

coming up and sloppy new on the face versus

16:38

someone raping you they know that there

16:40

is a difference even if they say something ridiculous

16:42

like sex work is work and it doesn't matter

16:44

how many sexual partners that you have it's just

16:46

liberating great the understand that

16:48

sex is different than you know your normal

16:51

interaction negative or positive

16:54

on it really can't be explained

16:57

so why that is as you

16:59

like kind of briefly touched on you

17:01

said without talking about like the mental

17:03

and emotional the ceiling part of

17:05

it but of course from my perspective

17:08

i'm say know it's say spiritual

17:10

it's the spiritual part of spiritual that

17:12

it would argue it it because

17:14

there is something deep in

17:16

almost intangible in all of us

17:18

because we are made in god's image because

17:21

he made us male and female because he

17:23

made us arts word

17:25

that kind of sexual intimacy that is

17:27

only really practice in a healthy

17:29

and productive and fruitful way in

17:32

the boundaries of monogamous

17:35

marriage that is why somehow

17:38

innately we know and have

17:40

surprised feel our sexual you know

17:43

rebellious shen mores we

17:45

have surprised what i believe god place

17:47

in all of us that we understand that sex

17:49

is special that sex is

17:51

for commitment it is for covenant

17:54

that it is on it

17:56

is a reflection of something much bigger

17:59

and much deep for and much more eternal

18:02

then we can actually give word

18:04

kill and i think our disguise

18:06

even a secular person disguised

18:08

of things like rape and things

18:11

like pedophilia i

18:13

think it speaks to how

18:15

gotten a that they got play ,

18:17

and as and so as you already mentioned even

18:19

from a secular perspective is post

18:22

nineteen sixties is a backlash

18:24

against christian morality specifically

18:27

christians sexual morality then

18:29

of course it would make sense

18:32

that are thought about

18:34

sex have gone in the direction

18:37

direction it has because christianity

18:39

as you mentioned for the last two thousand years totally

18:42

disrupted the pagan roman world and

18:44

how they viewed sacks also is just something

18:46

that you do people are just people

18:48

that he used children does matter arm

18:51

christianity's disrupted dot and now

18:53

that we have kind of rejected it we're

18:56

going back to the pagan era

18:58

and how they viewed bodies and how they viewed sex

19:00

else anyway i just kind of wanted to give my

19:02

christian perspective on now but i'm curious

19:05

just kind of what you think about that

19:09

i mean yeah i i think that the yeah

19:12

i don't think is a can the underestimate is quite

19:15

how light appalling

19:17

the the graphics were in

19:19

antiquity by and if you're looking

19:21

at the the first century christian

19:24

introduction of the need kind of sexual ethics

19:27

and , ought to radically

19:29

transform his head and i think manny's really

19:31

worth bearing really worth

19:35

in here i'm on feminism which is often

19:38

which sets of the spain in direct

19:40

opposition to to christianity

19:42

and the other kind and other institutions

19:45

to that particular lie in an american british

19:47

concepts would primarily talking about christianity

19:50

and in a state

19:52

because i the i mean there are a lot different strains of feminism

19:55

and clearly there are some also said

19:57

internal discussions since i'm missing missing

20:00

having batch you know when it comes down

20:02

to where a lot as feminists

20:04

ideals are setting basically everyone can it can

20:07

agree with with autism whether or not they call themselves

20:09

feminists know the idea that women's on

20:12

, interests or to be protected some

20:16

women the national knives

20:18

matter that women's distress masses you

20:20

know this kind of stuff and which is not

20:22

taken as read in say the roman world

20:25

right

20:26

they'd

20:28

ideas about equality and the protectionist

20:31

a week and so on originally

20:34

christian idea is even if and now

20:36

somewhat divorced financial theology

20:40

and i think it is an era to see

20:43

feminism christianity isn't necessarily

20:45

an opposition even

20:47

, there might be pointed today as i would have been

20:49

in a across across the last two thousand years

20:51

i have always been an internal disputes and so

20:54

forth am i

20:56

think it is a terrible error feminine

20:58

sometimes earnest think

21:01

that tearing down than

21:05

the old sexual morality would

21:07

necessarily lead to women's women's

21:10

lives in freezing anyway because

21:12

actually there a lot of those hands existence

21:15

of such their fix t to christian once

21:17

and a lot of them are a hell of a lot worse

21:21

what prevails until recently in our

21:23

society you know i have one

21:25

of the arguments i make in in favor of marriage

21:28

you , rising for secular audience up the

21:30

who are not the hunan asserting can be persuaded

21:32

by them by the religious arguments right but i say

21:35

well if well look at this rationing will look at the data

21:38

that the lot of days when this let

21:41

him assistance

21:43

how much worse

21:45

women and children the non monogamous

21:47

systems that marriage right polygamous systems

21:49

are in some sense on kind of natural state

21:52

hum most societies on

21:54

the and pleasurable record have been poly

21:56

diner say permitting than take multiple

21:59

wise

21:59

and

22:01

places by my ancestors are also

22:03

poly finest this this seems to be to some

22:05

extent our default that we drift towards

22:07

not sure you'll see on things like dating apps which has

22:09

office at a wealth of , on this

22:12

you will see that left the are in devices

22:14

without up on a monogamous restriction

22:16

comic standing eight people did

22:18

hundred years that was kind of polygon a system

22:20

we have the hiatus men

22:23

accumulation losses

22:25

why our friends

22:27

unless this is man having none at

22:29

all the , with that kind

22:31

of and society is

22:33

it tends to produce a lot more

22:36

am domestic violence violence

22:38

case households with lots

22:40

of pie wide tennessee a

22:43

lot completely i'm a lot more

22:45

child abuse

22:46

more crime

22:49

because you have this masses unmarried

22:51

men who are frustrated

22:54

, don't have any reason really sustain themselves

22:56

because as that's that's very or somewhat marriage

22:59

and having children does to manage

23:01

it is yummy literally we can measure it would

23:03

jesus testosterone and men and

23:05

when they have a child aim that and then they're involved in

23:07

a child's cast as a social that strong

23:10

strong a good way air and that it's a it's a

23:12

it's a softening of softening i'm

23:15

male aggression sickly used for medical

23:17

center whereas in medical

23:19

monogamous system

23:23

i might drop

23:24

the he pilots rates drop child abuse

23:26

drugs you know it's in some sense not a natural

23:29

system because it's not the one of we kind

23:31

of tendency towards by default

23:33

and he is the politically

23:36

the people that a places real restrictions on other

23:38

spend right you want to take on multiple

23:41

wives if they have the opportunity chase

23:43

is why as polished as cold as the and

23:45

the

23:45

the monogamous marriage why monogamous marriage

23:48

would have been

23:48

at a become a successful as it has

23:51

and and as widespread as it is nowadays

23:54

i'm and the answer is that yes

23:55

it restricts

23:57

the i think if men who are

23:59

no innate in general setting the times

24:02

but , has so many other benefits for

24:05

society that

24:07

and

24:08

the table societies was

24:10

five and expand save

24:13

i think that you can end up

24:15

the rain the more kind of rational

24:18

they'd had driven all humans

24:20

at some of the same conclusions that have been

24:23

reached by an ultra

24:25

religious traditions with

24:27

the exception as you say i think his of

24:29

the of the the argument against that for

24:31

disenchantment which really does come down

24:33

to

24:35

the nation

24:36

but then

24:37

you know where we are we are human animals

24:40

right since it we all

24:42

we are

24:43

we are driven by nations

24:45

anything to say that we should be kind is

24:48

i think the a lot

24:50

of were alerted the reason that young women are experiencing

24:52

of distress in a culture special sacks

24:55

and porn and all the in oldest of i'm describing

24:58

is , what they're being asked to do

25:01

is basically suppress that instincts

25:04

instincts said instincts towards wanting to have

25:06

emotional attachment is that relationship towards

25:09

feeling the

25:11

answer about being with men

25:13

that they don't know i'm all is a

25:15

kind of red flags which instinctively crop

25:18

up feeling it disgusts sincere in

25:20

a these and very very deeply

25:22

ingrained instincts and us and that that's true

25:24

reason that said you know they are self protective

25:27

and one of the things the reject

25:30

about sex positive feminism

25:32

is even know in theory it's best to be

25:34

all about earnest and promotion

25:36

people sexual being and so on what

25:38

i think it does in practice is

25:41

actually then encourages

25:44

women in particular

25:46

he

25:47

ignore their instincts and the time we trained

25:50

themselves to be more like men to have sex

25:52

like man to see this deliberate

25:54

we go rather than saying no

25:56

female sexuality such defines as

25:59

it is right it's such a good

26:01

teacher in a to wanted to combine

26:04

love with sex is is good

26:06

tunes as commit to one person and so on

26:09

these are not bad instincts that women should be trained

26:11

out of one of the phrases i i

26:13

hate so much that isn't that

26:15

unpopular the century uneasy and meet your insulin

26:18

is catching feelings the ,

26:20

that if you're having sex relationship with someone and he starts

26:22

singing my still attachment this is some sort disease

26:25

eve proves that you need to be avoiding

26:27

any get these these were refit

26:29

guides in women's max and so on

26:32

i'm advising i

26:35

mean it's is presented indigent in each away

26:37

but we all know what's really going on right there advising

26:39

young women who find themselves

26:41

find a culture tasha sex don't like

26:44

it a feeling

26:46

unhappy but also feel as at this is compulsory

26:48

they have to go through this whoop

26:51

it advising them seems like date make eye contact

26:54

with your sexual partner and

26:56

take drugs for you hasek to soften

26:58

your your emotional responses all

27:00

is kind of enough to encouraging me

27:02

some into a nice nice late themselves

27:05

and the question is purpose right

27:07

says , serve the mail

27:10

libido basically i think is is

27:12

what a consultancy at eight and surfing

27:14

when it's interesting a nice

27:18

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28:28

i've heard

28:30

from a lot of young

28:32

women in particular those

28:34

you and call themselves be transition

28:37

are the same see a common theme and

28:39

their backgrounds in the stories that i is

28:42

rad and also the ones that i've

28:44

personally spoken to his

28:46

, especially those who are young like you

28:48

know ten years younger than me and said a really

28:50

grew up coming of age during the social

28:53

media era and

28:55

days salts as young

28:58

women very over sexualized

29:00

and felt pressure at felt pressure

29:02

young age to be sexual not

29:04

just sexually active but trust sexually

29:07

talk sexually and stance

29:09

sexually on social media send

29:11

pictures to blaze and i'm sure that pressure

29:13

to some extent has always been there

29:16

for a young that and to try to perform

29:18

in some way to gain the satisfaction and approval

29:21

of young men by

29:23

with social media in just

29:26

kind of or media and pop culture as it

29:28

is it seems like the pressure is stronger

29:30

more ubiquitous in so a lot of these

29:32

wonder what i find interesting who transitioned

29:35

so called into being a man

29:38

a common theme that i find is that they were

29:40

uncomfortable eyes

29:42

a twelve thirteen year old with

29:44

the pressure to be sexual with

29:46

always feeling like a sexual object

29:49

feeling like pray

29:51

and i'm feeling vulnerable

29:53

because it's that and self

29:55

that if they transitioned are they

29:57

started been more masculine did

29:59

not them less vulnerable there was less

30:02

pressure and , sad

30:04

because i mean puberty involves a lotta discomfort

30:06

four girls and always in employees

30:09

and only size and sale

30:11

of course sexuality in the discovery

30:13

of all of that a t years is already awkward

30:15

and difficult but it seems like

30:17

objectification into sexualization

30:20

of young people especially young girls

30:22

is more it's bigger

30:25

than it has been done before i don't

30:27

think it's just leading to and confusion

30:29

about gender and not kind of thing i think

30:31

it's fleet leading to a lot of his you said

30:34

disenchantment self hatred

30:37

ah i'm self resentment just

30:39

a lot of confusion about

30:41

what sex is supposed to be with the body

30:43

is who they are how the mind in the

30:45

heart in the body all work together and

30:48

how it's supposed you is that some seen

30:50

that she's seen what do you think about that

30:53

campaigning again as as must the motivation

30:56

of why i mean so many transistor say that

30:58

it was a very explicit motivation they were certain

31:01

sat in sat is always alarming

31:04

to some degree to com to

31:08

and suddenly inhabit the body either a

31:10

woman and having to marry shape such

31:12

centrist his own always difficult but doing

31:14

so in high

31:17

percentage slice culture

31:20

see the point of fight in a with the expectation

31:22

that you've got you've got young boys in particular

31:24

bianco saving exposed to porn from

31:26

really young age this way to sing children

31:29

smartphones into

31:31

which i'm the

31:33

name is multi billion dollar favor

31:35

corporations and beaming the most extraordinarily

31:40

violent aggressive horrible such images

31:42

try which are gonna be exposed to for video

31:44

nature i mean what a things i write about in

31:47

one shot from bdsm is the

31:51

he can switch to the sexual

31:53

script i didn't say

31:55

much more aggressive patches

31:57

things like that one survey

31:59

it the uk which ,

32:02

a half as what and get

32:04

young women in the cage eight and twenty four

32:06

have been shaped by upon during sex this

32:08

was not considered to be a normal part is sex

32:10

even even years ago twenty

32:12

years ago with his butt of

32:15

a weird nice thing to do

32:17

that most people would never even would

32:19

never even occurred to them even do know

32:21

that but now we have every pore platform

32:24

in the world has images

32:26

on the front pages is completely mainstream you can

32:28

even expect to see on instagram and facebook

32:31

and all these platforms that especially appropriate for

32:33

for adolescents no

32:36

wonder you have some of these girls it

32:38

take you know arriving in this kind of such a tolchin

32:40

saying on i went out and

32:42

one way of getting out

32:45

it cannot identify as a woman anymore or

32:47

to do things like identify as a sexual

32:51

would get me sexual that me that make me laugh

32:53

a little bit because i'm tammy sexual am

32:55

is defined as is basically when you you only

32:57

one have sex with someone who you're emotionally attached

32:59

he and his is this is presented

33:01

as being

33:03

the kind of weird , wonderful

33:06

specialize as t v re re

33:08

whatever like notices to normal female

33:10

sexuality is half of the you're describing and

33:12

creating any time the mean i kind of

33:14

i don't have to respect the guys in the sense of

33:18

having having the confidence or

33:20

my to it almost to a set this unit

33:22

this is my identity the

33:24

i'd eaten did nothing wrong with at an

33:27

is good in a bad if identify as demi sexual

33:29

than team since a kind of go along

33:32

with the mainstream against your instincts but

33:34

equally he shouldn't have to be a

33:36

coming up with some sort of special identity

33:38

that permits you to opt out of a culture that

33:40

is really no kids who was in it wins interest

33:43

yeah i'm ,

33:46

written about this before as

33:48

all of the different

33:51

the are years all the different maurice

33:53

restrictions traditions around sexuality

33:56

that it was as we've talked about the

33:58

rooted in christianity even if they

34:00

has become separated from christian

34:03

theology as all those are knocked down

34:05

and , name of liberation and the name

34:08

ah ah don't

34:10

own self discovery and self fulfillment

34:13

i really see a huge crossover between

34:15

the like trendy narcissistic

34:17

self love culture in all the sexual revolution

34:20

there seems to just be a lot in common there

34:23

as all those all those restrictions

34:25

or knockdown those restrictions see

34:28

the normalization

34:30

of cynthia like had

34:32

a feeling on the horizon

34:35

or do you think that's just a slippery

34:37

slope argument that you

34:39

know christian conservatives are putting

34:41

out there to try to scare people

34:43

about lgbtq people

34:46

i think it hard for these principles

34:48

not turned up pedophilia

34:52

apologies and eventually it's and this has

34:54

happened revelation

34:56

into have to some extent the memory hold he has

34:58

it and say the nineteen seventies a

35:01

push among all sorts of very

35:03

prominent

35:05

i'm very thankful island a

35:07

gale resigning yes

35:10

yeah signing petitions he knew

35:12

since equalization pitifully writing

35:14

very explicitly into sense of it and

35:16

, they said it's put imports remember

35:18

this is it they didn't say that

35:21

it was a case of violently assault children

35:24

what they said was that the consent

35:26

principle the it

35:28

in a consent with importance and

35:30

that some children were capable of consenting

35:33

to say that adults and

35:36

i think this is the problem with

35:38

the kids at framework that is actually

35:40

a it is ice it is open t

35:43

and can manipulation

35:45

the fat the we set the legal

35:47

power at sixteen

35:49

and ek in others similar

35:52

twenty thresholds across the world is

35:54

to some extent arbitrary we know that

35:57

you know sixteen year old on the night for

35:59

has succeed

35:59

that

36:01

no radically guess

36:02

and how she is the next day we have

36:04

to to realign in the sand legally inside this is

36:06

the point at which consists of sets

36:08

and we never started on interesting set

36:10

a very different points to sometimes really very

36:13

often the

36:15

argument from from

36:17

summer to such revelation me was just we

36:19

should nadya a little lower and it could still

36:22

completely in keeping with

36:24

at with that principles a protest can sense

36:27

and it becomes a new they're all sorts

36:29

of examples

36:31

them like since since

36:34

pornography

36:36

with adults pretending to be children

36:38

to mention himself look more my children rand

36:41

i mean that's a trend even all yeah zoc i saw

36:43

something on that there's

36:46

like this chan does like older girls

36:48

wearing like pigtails

36:51

to get more traces as they look

36:53

yeah yeah they look younger yeah also

36:56

and as i don't wanna take us you know off of what

36:58

we're talking about they're just so i don't forget

37:01

something i've noticed with a lot of

37:03

man who say that the identify as women

37:06

that at least the ones that i'm seen

37:08

you know on mine is that they don't

37:10

dress up like when they often dress up

37:13

as little girls like

37:15

theories this one tic talker i

37:17

think his name is a ,

37:20

that he is he's talking about

37:22

oh this is day whatever of being a girl

37:24

and literally dress i mean this is a man

37:27

and he's dressed like a

37:29

child like he's dressed like a twelve year

37:31

old and this is apparently just acceptable

37:34

we're all supposed to celebrate this i mean it's

37:36

hard for me not to see the writing

37:38

on the wall it's already getting blurry right

37:41

the who

37:42

either example would be i'm

37:45

like virtual reality porn or cartoon

37:47

porn or whatever that's designed to look clutch

37:50

how potent but it doesn't actually

37:52

use children in it's production

37:54

said it's not directly harming any children

37:57

and having like

37:59

easy and then netflix show a

38:02

couple of years ago which was supposed

38:05

lay in it the defense from

38:07

the creators was that it was about as

38:09

and critiquing such as a snitch children and

38:11

and in a the plot in the end he

38:15

the protagonist rejecting the kind of have such

38:17

as a sense but it also featured a lot

38:19

of i've sexualization of real children who actually

38:21

were really young and looked obviously

38:23

very young and this this

38:25

sort of staying where within the consent framework

38:29

what do you say you know this is

38:31

an adult wants to put braces and pigtails on

38:33

and create porn and event had another adult

38:36

wants to wants to consume

38:38

it will pay for it you

38:40

can't really challenge that within the consent for a

38:42

month at all and yet

38:44

the vast majority of us the

38:46

you an instinctive revulsion and know

38:48

that has something off

38:50

the about that

38:51

and it very hard to explain

38:54

that feeling the all that you've got

38:56

to the consent framework whereas

38:59

, you if you're interested if you're

39:01

is he know is if you say that

39:03

actually their assassin

39:06

thera fashion that she's in which was ecstatic

39:08

should be based on one of those

39:10

includes

39:12

the

39:13

the protection to vulnerable and the recognition

39:15

that actually any kind

39:17

of sexual attraction to children

39:20

the wrong and should be repressed and he said if

39:22

anyone sort of discover that in discovers it

39:24

in themselves it it

39:27

me they are they , obliged

39:29

to the prestige and sinks because

39:31

they're not they're not fatuous you know these

39:33

, of arguments that i think most

39:36

people do instinctively feel

39:39

drawn towards that which the need

39:41

kind of ethical framework just cannot

39:43

possibly accommodate which is why

39:45

i think we end up inevitably with

39:48

peter philly or polish isn't have

39:50

done since the nineteen sixties it's various

39:52

points and points say we say we flipping back towards

39:54

that again

39:57

alright a good time again i gotta tell

39:59

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41:11

i agree with you that it is the natural

41:13

consequence of again has

41:15

a backlash to

41:18

christianity of course from my vantage

41:20

point and like all of this is a rejection

41:22

of what wise

41:25

kind of the dominant

41:27

philosophy which was christian theology

41:29

there's a fascinating book about the invention

41:33

of children and how christianity really

41:35

invented children as a protected

41:37

category which again is we've already kind of

41:39

mentioned of the pagan world

41:42

in which christianity burris

41:45

there was no idea of children

41:47

being a protected class the not only

41:49

could be used for all kind of labor

41:52

but also for sexual exploitation

41:54

really the the person who stood

41:56

in the center of society

41:59

was the was d free meal everyone

42:01

else kind of was free for subjugation

42:04

think christianity universalize

42:07

this old testament idea that paying on all

42:09

people have souls or people are made in the

42:11

image of god there is

42:13

a consequence for rape there's a consequence for murder

42:16

there's a consequence for abuse

42:18

and then also brought in the gospel

42:21

which said okay everyone his dad in

42:23

sin apart from crazed every one is alive

42:25

in christ's by grace through faith

42:27

in him that is a radical equality

42:30

of worth that the gospel

42:32

of jesus christ brought into

42:35

the pagan world is not is what

42:37

revolutionized the west still today

42:40

and the non christian world there is

42:42

nothing perverse a

42:44

d c nothing perverse in

42:47

marrying a child still today

42:49

probably in a large portion of

42:51

the world and the non christian world it has never

42:53

been seen as any kind of paris feel

42:56

ya any kind of predation it

42:58

is because of christianity

43:00

and the spread of christian virtues

43:03

that we have a rightful revulsion

43:06

to pedophilia that's not a universal

43:08

values today so to me

43:10

this is just another consequence

43:13

the inevitable consequence of

43:16

rejecting christian theology

43:18

i don't think we even realize none

43:20

of us christian or nice realize

43:23

what is on the other side have

43:26

a fully post christian

43:28

world i mean i think history tells us that

43:31

i don't think though we in the last you take

43:33

for granted all of those traditions and

43:35

all of those moral

43:38

principles principles think that we can

43:40

even begin to recognize what that's

43:42

going to look like

43:45

yeah i read an article

43:48

says comfort magazine few weeks ago about

43:50

engine and he takes he come across him i

43:53

just recently discovered you he was like

43:55

this is he was allowed

43:57

as i say yeah and i am meeting that

44:00

he is apparently or a phenomenon anyone who have

44:02

miller he's a he's a bit smacking kickboxer

44:05

an issue that has that has

44:07

a bit of a text bookstore and he is

44:09

some

44:10

i think he's a really good reminder the

44:13

fact that i'm

44:16

just because he's a pace to christian

44:19

sexual morality does not mean

44:21

by any means that he is

44:25

you know that that dichotomy is completely

44:27

false because what tate it

44:31

is invested in in

44:33

his own personal morality is basically

44:36

consumption display on

44:39

you know being decently susie status

44:41

driven the driven the his like

44:43

fancy watches cause whatever this

44:45

is what it is for and he seems women as being

44:48

consumable innings at the same way and

44:50

he has said that he wants to have

44:52

you want to have multiple partners mobile unit children

44:55

that by at many women as he possibly can

44:57

he's completely on unconcerned with the idea

44:59

is an monogamous marriage

45:01

and of course he he he can

45:04

now see that mean we don't see legally permit

45:06

polygamy but in practice

45:08

i'm you can live in a place

45:11

in in a plague this way with absolutely no restrictions

45:13

in a legal sense and m m m very little social

45:15

censure either say he is the

45:18

heat able to basically lives as

45:20

a kind is it , high

45:22

class room and male who on

45:24

the in in the room was absolutely no one

45:27

would have just and forward it all in a hobby wine

45:29

scene is completely unremarkable in

45:31

a world that doesn't recognize the

45:34

that recognize the violation of

45:37

the bodies of women and children particularly

45:39

i can't win the nationals and mushers yeah

45:42

free fcs it isn't

45:44

for a looking at all of history

45:46

his behavior in what he did for most

45:49

of history most places in the world would not have

45:51

been seen as problematic

45:53

yeah completely typical and

45:55

all they see it has also you know within the christian

45:57

well there has been many jeffrey epstein

46:00

and but i think the point is that they're not

46:02

it is possible

46:04

to critique them within a within

46:07

a section well as he was says that say the such the exploitation

46:10

of of the week is wrong and

46:12

that high status men should not automatically

46:14

assume that they have such access to

46:16

this ice and serious right studies a

46:18

radical thing to say and it remains about got into

46:20

sex and i think that actually you

46:22

know in many ways i'm

46:26

anything christians are on the same page about that

46:28

even if we

46:29

even if we don't know which are effect for

46:31

there's certainly a lot of things and i realize

46:33

since the revolution has come for

46:36

that they're caught in the us male and female and has

46:38

decided to try to connect like obliterate

46:40

thought which he talked about in your book but

46:42

i realized you know there's a lie

46:45

zeit i end

46:47

up linking you know i linked arms

46:49

with a lot of feminist on what

46:51

i would say to they understand

46:53

certainly from a secular perspective why

46:55

you look at history you'll get the plight of limiting

46:57

you say semitism is necessary in has accomplished

47:00

good things again from my

47:02

vantage point of like what like would say

47:04

is just as christianity

47:06

revolutionize the idea the perspective

47:09

of children so it

47:11

also revolutionized

47:14

perspectives on when and not

47:16

just you the gospel and that kind of radically quality

47:18

that it brings as like centers and st spice

47:21

aussie like if you look at a passage like a season

47:23

five which a lot of people who identify as

47:25

christians and it is today heat because it says

47:27

wide submit to your husband's as to the

47:29

lord and of course you're like oh my goodness

47:31

emissions but i think the radical part

47:34

of that or what would have been considered a radical part

47:36

of that which was not normal for the culture

47:38

at the time is lynn paul

47:40

said husband's love your

47:42

wives as christ's love the

47:44

church and basically he'd with on to say just

47:47

is crazy i prefer eating food for you so

47:49

sacrifice yourself for

47:51

your wife talks about monogamy the

47:53

importance of being a husband of just

47:55

one wife of not provoking your children

47:57

to anger but caring for them that

47:59

all not a mission to your husband part that

48:02

probably wouldn't have been radical at the times the radical

48:04

part was husband's you're not free to do

48:06

whatever you want to do you not fritos

48:08

though you're wild oats you are to be monogamous

48:11

you are to care and compassion for

48:13

your wife and for

48:15

your children the game in

48:17

i think like dot perspective on women

48:19

as people to be cared for people

48:21

whose interests actually matter to have

48:24

a soul who aren't just bodies who

48:26

are just bearing children

48:28

although that of course is so important like

48:30

again christian

48:32

idea an ideal that over

48:34

time really changed how society

48:37

cel women i see feminism

48:39

in mind in my opinion as

48:41

getting more wrong than right and

48:44

actually helping create someone like

48:46

intrude hate because feminism

48:49

told when in that he

48:51

like just get on birth control and

48:54

do whatever you want with your body and

48:56

not is liberation and that is good

48:58

and not as virtuous and that is great all you

49:01

need a sexual satisfaction just like a man

49:03

can get i mean people are cancer tater lovey

49:05

not side of cinemas i'm so like

49:07

sam he's actually created the issue

49:10

i've been to the air that liberal feminism

49:13

made very a minds their voice in different

49:15

strains right but liberal feminists in this is by

49:17

far the most dominant now is kind of that

49:19

that that del bosque feminism the whatever

49:21

you know this is what we see in

49:24

in cause now and whatever

49:26

the era that liberal feminists

49:28

and may is that it seems

49:30

that freedom is the most important all

49:33

they didn't the preeminent virtue and that

49:35

all other that she's beautiful by the wayside and

49:37

so of course seen a say well man's

49:40

, had the freedom to behave like libertines

49:42

washington women have that freedom to

49:45

washington women have the freedom to participate

49:47

in public life and the same way that means you know all of this

49:49

and and it

49:51

true up to a point the problem

49:54

is it the kind of radical freedom

49:57

hijack

49:58

the

49:59

the

49:59

the work

50:02

when we come up against the to the brick

50:04

wall of biological difference

50:06

the fact that there is at the reception

50:09

asymmetry that is never gonna

50:11

go away the fact that women that

50:13

the once you get pregnant women's but we are much

50:15

smaller and weaker more physically vulnerable than men

50:17

are we have will be psychological difference

50:19

is that the fat the main a female sexuality

50:22

is

50:23

on average quite distinct am

50:26

that's not going anywhere and i think that

50:28

what we've seen and

50:31

the in have a negative consequences such revelation

50:33

that as a has played out now you know we've done the experiment

50:35

what happens if you actually title

50:38

down and try and stop from from scratch

50:40

again well we've seen it on

50:42

what happens is that

50:46

right to freedom at a society

50:48

i think in denial about the existence

50:51

of sexual asymmetry that is

50:53

try very hard i mean even in the most recent

50:55

situations tries to deny

50:57

the existence as many women

51:00

that

51:02

i think that we cannot possibly kite

51:05

it to need and of

51:06

for all

51:08

the even given existence of such they

51:10

symmetry and given that

51:12

i mean if is a sort of thing that

51:14

anyone with students in any one on the

51:16

left he has a has any kind

51:18

of critique of capitalism will recognize

51:21

this when it comes to free markets and will say

51:23

well gee just seen a summary freedom the

51:25

right like remove all say i'm

51:28

labour restrictions or in any

51:30

anything any highness on

51:33

without imposing structure in control

51:36

and a system and just kind of have access any

51:38

, on the last will say well no because

51:41

the the it is not only been playing field

51:43

right there are out there are there other rich bosses

51:45

are that poor workers if you

51:47

say your name and name

51:49

feel purgation see purgation the sabbath

51:52

to give one example of course you can end

51:54

up with poor workers and having to work seven

51:57

days a week and paying

51:58

i'm winning

51:59

read and , course

52:02

the bosses again a profit from the you know and i feel like

52:04

we've done the same saying when

52:06

it comes to the sexual marketplace that we basically

52:08

impose upon free market ideology and said

52:11

everyone should be free without recognizing

52:13

the fact that they're all inherent

52:16

inequalities which mean the different

52:18

people will experience as getting differently afraid

52:20

season that that his own freedom

52:22

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53:29

egypt seem like it has

53:31

delivered on it's promises not i'm sure

53:34

maybe liberation if liberation

53:36

as you can just do whatever you want if liberation

53:38

and libertinism are the same thing

53:40

which thing mean you could argue for against

53:42

but it doesn't seem like it's lied

53:45

to satisfaction

53:47

i mean aren't we more especially young girls it

53:49

seems more depressed and ever more anxious

53:51

than ever even more suicidal

53:53

than ever in there a lot of different factors i

53:56

think the gap play

53:58

into that i mean any when

54:00

we are constantly told him in young women especially

54:02

overrated and social media was just love

54:05

yourself just love yourself just love yourself discover

54:07

yourself you are your own truth your enough

54:09

for yourself you would think

54:11

that is an age where that kind of messages

54:13

primary for women that we would be happier

54:16

if that were the solution if the solution

54:18

was just do what makes you happy and

54:20

do what feels good don't care about

54:23

you know standards are rules are restrictions

54:25

just be authentically you twenty four seven

54:28

no matter what that means no matter how

54:30

much that might hurt you and her other people

54:32

is that where the way to go it seems

54:34

like we would be a lot happier right now actually

54:37

it seems like were a lot more depressed than we've ever been

54:40

so outlook points to people

54:42

realize okay we

54:44

need to like any to swing back

54:46

swing the other direction we need some

54:48

kind of like exit strategy hear

54:51

this ain't working we need to turn

54:53

around turn around bit like the do you see

54:56

dot have been or do you think like we're

54:58

just headed towards rock bottom

55:01

they gave that to happen i mean

55:03

i think it's of is a complicated picture because

55:06

you've got among

55:08

friends a fan since he's got a combination

55:10

of some members attend the

55:13

her radiance the sex positive stuff

55:15

and , you've also got some he ought to i

55:17

think that he against it and there is a bit of a sexual

55:19

tons revolution brewing and it's

55:22

not always happening in the way that you might once

55:24

you expect so francis thera

55:26

losses and young men who are reacting against

55:28

porn and who are swearing off using for until

55:31

they generally and not doing so the

55:35

any kind of ethical motivation

55:37

at all in terms of concerned

55:39

about and women had sure about in it's

55:41

production whatever the normally

55:43

doing it excessive they

55:46

recognize the fat porn is pretty destructive for

55:48

the consumer i tend to have

55:50

really negative impact

55:51

en un

55:52

your mind your sexuality it's

55:55

think he opponent like erectile dysfunction

55:57

a very very common and said said

55:59

is

55:59

porn frequently say normally it's coming out

56:02

with more suited self ,

56:04

in seeing yeah it's hot

56:06

in law can i way though and yeah

56:08

it's or and acted when something is like

56:11

bad for society it tends to be bad

56:13

for the individual and vice versa

56:15

armed and so to me it just as another

56:18

like it's another piece of evidence as

56:20

you can have argued even particular perspective

56:23

that that like mind and heart and soul and body

56:25

are cannot did he causes sexual dysfunction

56:28

not just because it's bad for you physically but also

56:30

because it's bad for your mind it's bad

56:32

for when it's bad for society and families

56:34

and children in general i'm

56:36

so yeah i mean it might be self interested

56:38

but as he sighed consequently

56:41

there good have that kind

56:43

of self control

56:45

yeah yeah and young women many

56:47

as and the coming to the same kind of conclusion

56:49

that's why you don't hectare of they'll twist

56:51

or wherever it's wherever it's

56:53

democrats young women she was saying exactly

56:55

these things that the such revelation was it was

56:57

, car basically am

57:00

i mean some of them are reacting as we discussed

57:02

earlier by doing things like identifying

57:05

as

57:06

the turn their as non binary

57:07

the or demi sexual or whatever it might be

57:09

so they're trying to kind of react against it within

57:11

the that the liberal framework on

57:14

others are just

57:17

forswearing such relationships

57:19

at all

57:20

like themselves as a counterpart

57:23

to insoles is it is a growing or online

57:25

no one in women who have basically swearing to celibacy

57:27

because they don't want to participate in this culture i'm

57:32

then i mean the point that i make in

57:34

the book is that actually there is also not to be learned

57:36

from my my last chapter school listen

57:38

to your mother why i'll keep

57:40

it actually some

57:43

of the own sexual

57:45

no there for a reason

57:48

she dated a lot to be

57:51

the we can learn from them in a critical way

57:53

i'm saying like marriage things

57:56

like recognizing that actually

58:00

many women have thought to get along right

58:02

if we're gonna have gonna future and the

58:04

allina we very often d many women have

58:06

passed

58:08

loving that you know that

58:10

make people them