2:00

damper on all the fun, reflecting

2:02

on it as the

2:04

great atheists have. She continues,

2:06

she writes, so what

2:09

changed? Why do I

2:11

call myself a Christian now? Part

2:13

of the answer is global. Western

2:15

civilization is under threat from

2:18

three different but related forces.

2:20

The resurgence of great

2:23

power authoritarianism and expansionism

2:25

in the forms of the Chinese Communist Party

2:28

and Vladimir Putin's Russia, the

2:31

rise of global Islamism

2:34

which threatens to mobilize a vast

2:36

population against the West, and

2:39

the viral spread of woke ideology

2:42

which is eating into the moral

2:45

fiber of the next generation. End

2:47

of quote. So there's her big three,

2:50

Bill. Yes. China, Russia, Islamism,

2:53

and woke ideology. Yeah,

2:56

I'm not sure that people today

2:58

are sufficiently aware of the

3:00

second threat, the threat of Islam

3:02

to the West. Europe

3:05

is being slowly Islamosized

3:08

through declining birth rates

3:11

and immigration. And I fear what Europe

3:13

will look like in another 100 to

3:15

200 years. It's already too

3:20

late in France. Given the

3:22

declining birth rates in France

3:25

and the surge of

3:27

immigration from Muslim countries, France

3:31

is on its way toward becoming a Muslim

3:34

nation. And frankly,

3:37

secular societies do not have

3:39

the spiritual resources to respond

3:42

to Islam. And so the

3:45

reaction of the secular government

3:47

to the threat of Islam

3:50

is to resort to power

3:53

in order to suppress religious

3:55

liberties. And so you'll find

3:57

in these secular societies a

3:59

reproach. oppression of Islam,

4:02

but then along with them also the

4:05

religious liberties of Christians. And

4:08

so really the best hope for

4:11

the West in terms of meeting the

4:13

threat of Islamization, I

4:15

think, is Christian revival. We

4:17

need to win as

4:19

many of these immigrants to Christ

4:21

as we can and to propagate

4:24

the gospel among

4:27

our fellow countrymen and

4:30

try to bring about a Christian revival

4:32

in the West that will then have

4:35

the spiritual resources to withstand

4:38

these threats that she speaks of. Continuing,

4:41

she writes, quote, we endeavor

4:43

to fend off these threats with modern

4:46

secular tools. Military, economic,

4:48

diplomatic, has technological efforts

4:50

to defeat, bribe, persuade,

4:53

appease, or surveil. And

4:56

yet with every round of conflict we

4:58

find ourselves losing ground. We

5:00

are either running out of money with

5:02

our national debt in the tens of

5:04

trillions of dollars, or we

5:06

are losing our lead in the technological

5:09

race with China. But

5:11

we can't fight off these

5:13

formidable forces unless we can

5:16

answer the question, what

5:18

is it that unites us? The

5:20

response that God is dead

5:22

seems insufficient. So

5:25

too does the attempt to

5:27

find solace in the rules-based

5:29

liberal international order. The

5:32

only credible answer, I believe, lies

5:34

in our desire to uphold the legacy

5:37

of the Judeo-Christian tradition,

5:40

end of quote. Wow. Several

5:43

things there, Bill, but the

5:45

rules-based liberal international order

5:48

got my attention. The

5:50

left decries the oppressive rules of

5:53

Islamism while ignoring that

5:55

they have their own increasingly

5:58

oppressive rules. That

6:00

like Kevin it, it's a

6:02

great paradox. For example, in

6:04

the secular liberal societies, there

6:07

will be our efforts to

6:09

ban the wearing of the

6:11

he job because this is.

6:14

Indicative. Of Islamization but

6:16

then by the same right

6:18

you should also ban the

6:21

wearing of the crucifix by

6:23

a Catholic christians and so

6:25

is in the name of

6:28

liberalism. The the secular government

6:30

begins to deny religious liberties

6:32

and a preset up. To

6:36

suppress the population And this

6:38

is really interesting in China

6:40

Seven when we were in

6:43

China prior to. Z During

6:45

Pings clamp down and

6:47

reversion to the old

6:50

Communist order Chinese intellectuals

6:52

at the University, we're

6:54

realizing the futility of.

6:57

Marxism and Atheism are.

6:59

They told us that

7:01

marxism is proved unable

7:04

to provide a sound

7:06

of. Societal.

7:08

Fabric for contemporary Chinese societies.

7:10

Confucianism is dead or and

7:12

no longer able to do

7:15

so as well. And therefore

7:17

these intellectuals were increasingly turning

7:19

a Christianity and they noted

7:21

that christianity is not an

7:23

imposition from the west. it

7:25

isn't fast and indigenous Chinese

7:28

religion that goes back to

7:30

the first few centuries after

7:32

price or through the Church

7:34

of the East as the

7:36

gospel was carried. Into China

7:39

and Soaps Chinese intellectuals

7:41

when we were there

7:43

were saying exactly the

7:45

same thing that I

7:47

on it as saying

7:49

ah, the the Christianity

7:51

bubble provide a sound

7:53

social fabric for maintaining

7:55

of the kind of.

7:57

Society that allows.

8:00

For of freedom and and

8:02

religious liberty. but without it

8:04

it's hard to see how

8:06

this can happen. You may

8:08

recall and. Reasonable. Phase

8:10

I quote from a professor

8:12

loyal room in and remarkable

8:15

address to the American Academy

8:17

for the Advancement of Science,

8:19

where he says the lesson

8:22

of the last two hundred

8:24

years has been that of

8:26

moral relativism is profoundly the

8:29

case. I'm. And. He said.

8:31

There are only. Two. Options to

8:34

solving this problem that he could

8:36

see One was what he called

8:38

the Madhouse. Option. Where

8:41

everyone just pursues his own

8:43

individual personal values at the

8:46

expense of social cohesion. On

8:48

the other hand, there was

8:50

the totalitarian options were moral

8:53

and social values are imposed

8:55

by the government to maintain

8:58

social cohesion at the expense

9:00

of personal liberty. And Ruse

9:03

said that if we're to

9:05

avoid either the madhouse option

9:08

or the totalitarian. Option

9:10

He said we need

9:12

to adopt some noble

9:14

lie, some section that

9:16

will trick us into

9:19

freely as. Sacrificing

9:21

self interest in

9:23

the. Interests. Of

9:26

social cohesion of voluntarily. Ah

9:28

and so this was the

9:30

option that the settlers had

9:33

to offer was was just

9:35

a normal life to live

9:37

in self deception. otherwise you

9:40

degenerate into these kinds of

9:42

are unacceptable options that the

9:44

island is is talking about.

9:47

What she's saying is that

9:49

there's a different option namely

9:52

Christian theism that to provide

9:54

an objective. Foundation for

9:56

a a Free

9:59

Society. That is cohesive.

10:01

Next. You makes a strong point

10:03

and she says how easy it

10:06

was for Russell to stand before

10:08

an audience and critique Christianity They

10:10

she writes. Could. A Muslim

10:12

philosopher damn before any audience. And

10:15

a Muslim country. Then.

10:17

Or now. And. Deliver a lecture

10:19

with the side why I am not

10:21

a Muslim and fact a book. With.

10:24

That title exist written by an

10:26

ex Muslim, but the author published

10:28

in America under the pseudonym I

10:31

been Warrick and it would have

10:33

been too dangerous to do otherwise.

10:36

To. Me, this freedom of conscience

10:38

and speech is perhaps the greatest

10:40

benefit of Western civilization it is

10:42

not come naturally to. It

10:45

is the product of centuries

10:47

of debate within Jewish and

10:49

Christian communities. It was these

10:51

debates that advance science and

10:53

reason. Diminish cruelty,

10:56

suppressed superstitions. And.

10:58

Built institutions to order and

11:01

protect life for guaranteeing freedom

11:03

to as many people as

11:06

possible. Unlike. Islam Christianity

11:08

outgrew it dogmatic stage.

11:10

It became increasingly clear

11:12

that Christ's teachings implied

11:14

not only a circumscribed

11:16

role for religion as

11:18

something separate from politics

11:21

is also implied. Compassion

11:23

for the center. And.

11:25

Humility. For. The Believer. And

11:27

of court Bill Anyone who

11:30

wants to get rid of

11:32

our diminish western civilization said

11:34

to think twice. Really that's

11:36

true Kevin but I think

11:38

honesty compels us to say

11:40

that these freedoms that she

11:42

speaks of our as much

11:45

due to the enlightenment as

11:47

they are to christianity of

11:49

prior to the enlightenment Roman

11:51

Catholicism could be extremely are

11:53

repressive as as you know

11:55

and or addicts were burned.

11:57

At the stay gone on occasion. The

12:00

protestant reformers were somewhat better

12:02

in allowing for freedom of

12:05

conscious and and not having

12:07

state coercion, but still even

12:10

in. The

12:12

the Reformation that union of

12:14

search and could be very

12:16

oppressive. Ah the great philosopher

12:19

album planning a once remarked

12:21

to made that the separation

12:23

of church and state or

12:25

she puts it politics and

12:28

religion was the one good.

12:30

Idea that the Enlightenment had

12:32

ah at. I think that

12:34

this is good not only

12:36

for of the state, but

12:38

it's also good for the

12:40

church. When. We

12:42

were recently and Ireland honest

12:45

speaking to works or we

12:47

saw this vividly displayed in

12:49

Ireland. The Catholic Church had

12:52

been so closely aligned with

12:54

the state and with the

12:56

educational apparatus there that are.

12:58

It was very oppressive to

13:01

not only Protestants but also

13:03

to atheist, and there was

13:05

tremendous backlash against the Catholic

13:07

Church in Ireland are a

13:10

backlash that continues today as.

13:12

More and more Irish people

13:14

desserts the Catholic Church for

13:16

I'm secular resume and so

13:19

I think for the that

13:21

the health of the church

13:23

itself the separation of politics

13:26

and religion is something that

13:28

must be preserved. His

13:30

or she writes next. Yet. I

13:33

would not be truthful if I

13:35

attributed my embrace of Christianity solely

13:37

to the realization that atheism is

13:39

too weak and devices a doctrine

13:41

to fortify us. Against. Our

13:43

menacing photos I've also turn to

13:46

Christianity. Because. I ultimately

13:48

found life without any spiritual

13:50

solace. On. And durable

13:53

indeed. very nearly self

13:55

destructive. Atheism failed to

13:57

answer a simple question. What?

14:00

The meaning and purpose of

14:02

life. And. Of Court. Below

14:05

hope she has an opportunity to read

14:07

your work on this. if she hasn't

14:09

it in fact, she could benefit a

14:11

lot from reasonable faith in her. Down

14:13

to thank you. I'm. I.

14:15

Think that here we

14:18

have existential questions concerning

14:20

meaning, value, purpose in

14:23

life that are right

14:25

at the heart of.

14:28

The the Christian Faiths this

14:30

now is not adopting christianity

14:33

for political reasons. Up to

14:35

this point everything she said

14:37

as been about. The

14:40

need for the Christian

14:43

worldview because of it's

14:45

power in the political

14:47

contest to for preserving

14:50

our civilization and freedoms.

14:52

But now she's talking

14:55

about very personal existential

14:57

questions. And

14:59

I am convinced that,

15:01

ah, this does give

15:03

very good grounds for

15:05

believing in God because

15:07

it only if God

15:09

exists can there be

15:11

objective, ultimate meaning, value

15:13

and purpose, and human

15:15

life. Let's. Look

15:18

at the remaining few paragraphs in this essay

15:20

she writes. Quote. Russell.

15:22

And other activists. Atheists believe that with

15:24

the rejection of god, we would. Enter

15:27

an age of reason and intelligent

15:29

humanism. But the got a whole.

15:32

That. The void left by the

15:34

retreated the church has really

15:36

been filled by a jumble

15:38

of irrational clause I religious

15:40

dogma. The result is a

15:42

world where modern calls prey

15:44

on that dislocated masses, offering

15:46

them spurious reasons. For. Being

15:49

and action. Mostly.

15:51

by engaging and virtue signaling

15:53

theater on behalf of and

15:56

victimized minority or our supposedly

15:58

doomed planet general

18:01

probably thinks that by destroying our

18:03

foundations we'll have more freedom. And

18:06

actually the opposite is true.

18:09

Yet it also looks to me like woke

18:11

people don't care if an oppressive

18:13

regime were to take us over because they

18:15

thrive on victimhood as she said

18:17

and oppression. And

18:20

it would give them a chance to be

18:22

morally outraged that our freedoms have been taken

18:25

away and virtue signal from

18:27

their prison camps. Ian

18:29

says that we need to convince the

18:31

population that they're messing in

18:34

their own nest basically. I

18:36

suppose Kevin that a great

18:39

many people really do hate

18:41

the West and hate

18:43

the United States and

18:45

want to see the demise

18:47

of the West. And

18:49

so I suspect that there's a

18:52

lot of truth in what you're

18:54

saying that they really do want

18:56

to bring down this system and

18:58

so this is a real fight for

19:02

the preservation of our society.

19:05

Here's how she concludes the essay

19:07

quote, and we can't counter Islamism

19:10

with purely secular tools. To

19:12

win the hearts and minds of Muslims here

19:14

in the West we have to offer them

19:17

something more than videos on tiktok. The

19:19

lesson I learned from my years of

19:21

the Muslim Brotherhood was the power of

19:23

a unifying story embedded in

19:26

the foundational text of Islam

19:28

to attract, engage, and

19:30

mobilize the Muslim masses. Unless

19:33

we offer something as meaningful I

19:36

fear the erosion of our civilization will

19:38

continue. And fortunately there is

19:40

no need to look for some

19:42

new age concoction of medication and

19:45

mindfulness. Christianity has

19:47

it all. That is why

19:50

I no longer consider myself a Muslim

19:52

apostate but a lapsed atheist.

19:55

Of course I still have a great deal

19:57

to learn about Christianity. I discover a little

19:59

more histories

22:00

we have yet to explain. Once

22:02

explained, they move into the realm of the

22:05

natural and the normal. Well,

22:07

I don't think Shermer has been listening to our podcast,

22:09

Bill. You've talked about the definition

22:11

of atheism many times, and you can

22:14

address that. But also, isn't

22:16

she talking about the philosophical

22:18

and cultural ramifications of

22:21

secularism and atheism? Yes,

22:24

I think that Shermer's response

22:26

is faulty on several levels.

22:29

First of all, there's this tired, old

22:31

misdefinition of atheism as

22:34

simply an absence of God-belief.

22:37

That is to confuse atheism

22:40

with non-theism. And

22:44

non-theism can be either atheism,

22:46

that there is no God, or agnosticism,

22:48

there may or may not be a

22:51

God, or a cognitivism,

22:53

that the question of God's existence is

22:56

meaningless. And so

22:58

he's simply misdefining the

23:00

term. Now what's really funny,

23:02

though, about this, Kevin, and I don't know

23:04

if you noticed this, did

23:07

you notice that after he says,

23:09

I'm an atheist in the same

23:11

sense that I'm an asupernaturalist and

23:14

an aparanormalist, he

23:16

says in the next sentence,

23:18

there's no such thing as

23:21

the supernatural. There's no such

23:23

thing as the paranormal. Well, the

23:25

parallel statement to that would be,

23:28

there is no such thing as

23:30

God. And

23:32

that is traditional atheism. That's

23:34

not just the absence of

23:37

God-belief. He is affirming the

23:39

traditional atheistic view, there is no

23:41

such thing as God. In

23:44

any case, in talking with

23:46

someone like Ian, he

23:48

has to use her definition

23:50

of atheism if he's to

23:53

engage with her point.

23:55

He's talking about atheism as

23:58

the belief that God does not exist. and

24:01

saying that that worldview does

24:03

not have the substance to

24:07

preserve Western society and

24:09

the civilizational struggle, nor

24:11

to provide meaning

24:13

and purpose in life. And so

24:15

if he's going to engage her point

24:18

rather than just talk pastor, he

24:20

has to use her definition of the term.

24:23

Finally, the irony

24:26

of this whole clip is that he

24:28

admits that atheism, as he

24:30

defines it, cannot supply

24:33

the resources needed in

24:35

the civilizational conflict. He says,

24:38

atheism, since it's not a view, can't

24:41

do anything. So

24:43

really he concedes her point on

24:46

his own definition of atheism, it

24:49

cannot supply the resources needed

24:51

in the civilizational conflict. So

24:53

I found his response to

24:56

her article to be just

24:59

multiply flawed.