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1:14

really nice to have you on the show. This is Scott

1:16

Talks. Thanks for tuning in. I

1:19

just listened to... Well, I have four pages

1:21

of notes on addiction.

1:25

A lot of it was personal for me because I

1:27

hear things from you that I haven't heard stated in

1:29

a certain way. I'm

1:34

fascinated with addiction. I think that the

1:36

lane of addiction has broadened so much

1:38

since I got into recovery. I'm

1:40

at Laura 15 years ago at

1:44

a rehab that was deemed

1:47

one of the best in the country. It

1:50

talked about addiction in many different

1:52

lanes or aspects of not just

1:54

alcohol and drugs, but love addiction,

1:56

gambling, sex, fantasy, things

1:58

that I hadn't. considered

2:00

addiction. You know, I was in this

2:03

cultural lane of addiction is like you

2:06

know drugs and alcohol and

2:09

you know 15 years later you

2:11

know it's changed a lot and I think

2:13

it's because of people like you who are bringing the

2:15

conversation out into the world. I

2:18

love that you Dr. Carl Eric Fisher has

2:21

a book called

2:24

The Urge. It's the history of

2:26

addiction. He has a podcast called

2:28

Flourishing After Addiction. I take

2:31

it you're a speaker. You are an active

2:34

therapist. You have

2:36

a practice. So

2:38

you have a lot going on and you are

2:40

also a psychiatrist who

2:42

was on the psych ward because

2:45

of an addiction, correct? Yeah. And

2:48

what were you addicted to at the time that you

2:50

entered the psych ward? Yeah,

2:53

it was 2010 and alcohol

2:56

was really my first love in

2:58

terms of substances but the thing

3:01

that supercharged it as it does for a lot

3:03

of people was cocaine and other

3:06

stimulants like Adderall.

3:09

We have more in common. We

3:13

have more in common. I loved a little alcohol

3:15

and then later on I found cocaine which

3:17

fueled the drinking. I never made

3:19

it to Adderall. It's like the

3:21

more socially acceptable version of a speedball not

3:24

to make light of it but just you

3:26

get the down or the upper and then

3:28

that obsessive titration to try to get into

3:30

the zone or at least that's what

3:32

it was like for me and once I really got more

3:35

into the stimulant and combine that with

3:38

going out and using alcohol

3:40

and healthily then that's the thing that really

3:42

put me on a rocket ship. So

3:47

I'm just real quick. I'm just trying

3:49

to paint a picture. What did the

3:52

last few weeks of your addiction look

3:54

like before you entered this? Were you

3:56

in practice? You were 20 something? in

4:00

psychiatric residency at Columbia University

4:02

in New York. I was

4:05

sort of like an academic star, at least in my

4:07

own head. And I thought

4:09

I was on top of the world. It's interesting

4:11

you ask a few weeks because I had

4:15

actually cut back quite a bit. I thought I

4:17

had things under control. And

4:20

then I went on vacation. And then

4:22

it was a full on bender. It

4:24

was just every night, two

4:26

weeks straight, traveling up and down the

4:28

Eastern seaboard, passing out on a

4:30

hot tub, getting

4:32

cuts from breaking glass, and winding

4:36

up back in New York City. And then that's when I

4:39

had a manic episode and came into treatment. But

4:41

it was really in the

4:43

space of those few weeks, it was the full

4:46

spectrum of the experience. It

4:48

was the highest, highest, lowest, lowest. Wow.

4:53

And then so you end up on a

4:56

psych ward with people that you

4:58

probably treated. I mean, not exact,

5:01

but tight. Oh, sure. I had admitted

5:03

people to that ward. I had interviewed

5:05

for that residency program

5:08

at Bellevue at NYU. I saw

5:11

some of the faculty that I interviewed with

5:13

kind of walking around as

5:15

the clinicians there. And just in

5:18

a moment, I went from us to

5:20

them, I went from doctor to patient.

5:25

Yeah, I had not heard the us to them. I was

5:29

a them. I think I was

5:31

like, if you were a doctor and you were us,

5:33

like Laura mentioned, she was an us. I was

5:35

a them. I was on the other side like, oh,

5:37

this is where I'm supposed to be. I'm safe here.

5:40

And I really enjoyed your

5:42

conversation with Laura as she talked about sort of

5:45

self diagnosing your treatment

5:47

at the time and evaluating

5:50

whether you were getting what you thought you needed

5:53

and sort of that back and forth between the

5:55

guy who was cutting himself as a pool and the

5:57

guy who's treating himself and the treatment. Did you?

6:00

You find that that was something that scares

6:02

you, that you had that duality in the

6:04

moment, or was it just something that you

6:06

went back and forth with without thinking that.

6:08

I scared me terribly. And if you are

6:11

seeing the moment, I doubt I would have

6:13

been fully conscious of it. I think I

6:15

was erecting all of these defenses ran against

6:17

the notion that. And I

6:19

couldn't hide behind that persona

6:21

that for side of being

6:24

healthy functional whenever I was

6:26

so invested in a view

6:28

of myself as. Ah,

6:32

Healthy. Excellent. Deserving.

6:35

Of love however you wanna put it and

6:37

I'm. Now is

6:39

exhausting. He knows truly truly

6:41

exhaustingly citizen the strategizing in

6:43

the constant maintenance of that

6:45

persona. Enough. of

6:47

one of the gifts of recovery I got early on

6:50

as just being blood drop that bit by bit by

6:52

bit by bit by bit. Yeah

6:56

I think when I heard the word peace and

6:58

I was able to tell my truth. You

7:01

not like somewhere in all of that mix

7:04

there's someone observing that that which is an

7:06

odd saying right? Like I thought that was

7:08

crazy when I first got into recovery and

7:10

they were like you know what I want

7:13

you to do is to watch yourself when

7:15

you don't wanna do something or when you

7:17

want to do something and as yeah that

7:19

sounds sketchy fake for brain and a third

7:21

person here but I started to kind of

7:24

recognize that is my true ah, intentional south

7:26

the person that wanted the best and you

7:28

said something interesting in the interview. Was

7:31

that you just devers a party you that

7:34

new you want you just needed to

7:36

stop and that seem like the answer and

7:38

I remember having that moment of like

7:40

a baggage has stopped as well. Maybe

7:42

I configured or us out. Yeah that's a

7:44

hard pressed to get to has. And

7:48

and that's what makes it such an

7:50

individual journey. I think. like you said,

7:52

we we can eradicate addiction. Because.

7:54

There's so much complexity to

7:57

it, right? culturally internally? I'm.

8:00

But how can we help people

8:02

to you know, reach that point

8:05

where we were just talking about

8:07

We like how do I trust

8:09

that internal south more. Get

8:12

a straight he was. You enter know.

8:14

I think it's very personal in context

8:16

dependent. Some. But I do know

8:18

that. One

8:20

of the things that we know clearly

8:22

as harsh confrontation in attempts to control.

8:24

Don't. Really works. Too. Many

8:27

people change my as a death unfortunately.

8:29

A really strong legacy that we have

8:31

in a lot of addiction treatment. Especially

8:34

in the States has he not quite as

8:36

bad in Europe? Does

8:39

this old idea that you need a

8:41

break people down and rebuild them again

8:43

in a different image and I'm. Practicing

8:46

and come out as literal colts

8:48

that I got a document in

8:51

the books that fum. The

8:53

certain calls like Sin and on that was

8:55

kind of. She received into an addiction treatment

8:58

program and they put people in a hot

9:00

seat in the middle and then called out

9:02

all the problems that they saw from the

9:04

the group members around the fringes and. I'm

9:07

not a lottery of the saloon version of

9:09

that. I had a version of that was

9:11

a little more compassionate but it was still

9:13

ran a that I'm. So

9:16

harsh confrontation as a really work. What?

9:19

Does that mean you know some people think,

9:21

oh, that means that I just has to

9:23

be compassionate and floating in the cloud all

9:25

the time. And that's nonsense. Like if he

9:27

talked to somebody who has a a friend

9:29

or family member or a loved one who's

9:31

really struggling. With. An addiction.

9:33

Ah, it's not realistic to say.

9:37

Ah, you just have to take it. In.

9:39

You should withhold any consequences.

9:42

There's a role for. The.

9:45

word some people call natural

9:47

consequences. Allowing consequences to

9:49

run their natural horse safely and

9:51

depending on the situation right like

9:53

it, that's a lot easier to

9:55

do with marijuana than it is

9:57

to do with, say opioids, where

9:59

the. risks. If your kid uses

10:02

too much cannabis and they get a bad grade,

10:04

that's a hell of a lot of different stakes

10:07

than say opioid problems. So

10:09

it has to be done sensitively and there are good clinicians

10:11

out there that can help people with it. But it's just,

10:13

it's no, if anyone's telling you a

10:16

single answer to how to help somebody else with

10:18

an addiction, then you got to run the

10:20

other way. That's impossible. We'll

10:25

be right back. Hey

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guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure if you

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know this about me, but I'm a bit of

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VTW. Void. We're prohibited by law. See

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terms and conditions. me

11:51

at the time. And yeah,

11:54

I'm really, you know, let me

11:56

ask you this real quick. You know,

11:58

I know it's a big question. But where

12:01

do you think it's been like do you think

12:03

that the education of addiction and the different aspects

12:06

of it has been Has

12:08

grown substantially in the last decade and

12:10

been really beneficial for our society

12:12

as a whole. I Think

12:15

you have to say yes. I do think

12:17

you say yes. I mean obviously it could be better But

12:21

I think there's a lot more Awareness

12:24

of the problem of addiction there's

12:27

been actual positive

12:30

changes You

12:32

know Beth Macy's more recent book raising Lazarus

12:34

is a good example where she goes around

12:37

So all different plate like red stays

12:40

blue stays different Situations

12:43

and finds that like universal common

12:45

humanity where people are caring more

12:47

for addiction all the different interventions

12:49

and ways people are Supporting

12:53

people with addiction and there are

12:55

definite positive changes in policy where

12:59

Some of the more difficult regulations are

13:02

being lifted That used

13:04

to stand in the way of effective addiction

13:06

treatment and there's more funding for treatment and

13:10

I also think that There's

13:14

a way that we've lost some steam on Addiction

13:19

in terms of the public conversation the cultural

13:21

understanding of addiction Back

13:24

in 2018 2019. I remember there being a lot of energy around an

13:29

awareness about the opioid crisis and people talking about

13:31

the rates getting higher and higher and higher and

13:34

You know guess what after cover the rates are still getting

13:36

higher and higher and higher the people are kind of burnt

13:38

out and You know

13:40

if anything This

13:42

is a huge topic With

13:45

the broader conversation about cities.

13:47

Yeah, it is a huge racial

13:49

justice like people are just tired and I

13:53

think there's less Patience

13:56

and compassion to talk about addiction as a

13:58

complex human Problems I

14:00

worry about that you don't agree at the and

14:02

compassion allies. Were.

14:06

One of the things I think

14:08

that I'm seen in since cove

14:10

it and sort of this ability

14:12

for our society to become more

14:15

remote. His support groups are groups

14:17

of ah similar people are. Getting

14:20

together, ensuring their experience and.

14:23

You know, I think that's always

14:25

been one of the string serve

14:27

as a Alcoholics Anonymous is that

14:29

it seems to exist without that

14:32

societal i'm limitation if you will

14:34

and you know I'm. I've.

14:37

Always found. That.

14:39

Finding at such as similarity in

14:41

another person's journey has helped me

14:44

heal and. Maybe

14:46

you could talk a little bit

14:48

about that real quick. As far

14:51

as on me a historical value

14:53

or uniting see cancer support groups

14:55

or suicide survivors I in all

14:58

of these groups create language an

15:00

experience around unique unique experiences. Basically

15:02

by is that something that you

15:05

see is sort of a subculture

15:07

of of very of dazzle. Really

15:09

as an end in different

15:11

times and places there were

15:13

Indigenous Americans support groups that

15:16

arose to the deal with

15:18

the problems addiction, And

15:21

they're all sorts of terrible stories

15:23

about Hello Dave. Indigenous Americans were

15:25

some more vulnerable to I'll call

15:27

this totally false. There's no biological

15:30

truth to that is really more

15:32

about oppression. added another soon war

15:34

Sam and etc. Nylander

15:37

is is really cool. Me to

15:39

have group in the eighteen forties

15:41

that Abraham Lincoln commented on called

15:44

the Washingtonians and. They.

15:46

Were around for a little bit and they have little

15:48

successor groups that at all these like. Funny.

15:50

Nineteenth century names like The Sons of Temperance

15:52

and things like that. And

15:55

you know what? I really really really

15:57

wanted to find a direct connection between

16:00

those and Alcoholics Anonymous either a bit

16:02

make for such a good story. So

16:04

I was not a biased researcher. I

16:06

was there, was like talking or that

16:08

the Washingtonian started in Baltimore in. there's

16:10

like quicker tradition there and maybe the

16:12

Quakers made it up to New York

16:14

and they influence the S and there's

16:16

nothing there that I sound and other

16:18

people have looked to. I'm. But

16:21

I think in the end as

16:23

I see a better story that

16:25

independently. Mutual how

16:27

groups have arisen in different times,

16:29

in different places. And with

16:32

that speaks to. I. Think

16:34

is that there's something. The

16:37

something in our bones of something like

16:39

deep in our cultural dna were like

16:41

you need to come together as an

16:43

antidote to same as a kind of

16:45

mutual support Their nice, anything more. Horizontal

16:48

connections. And

16:50

like to think what you're saying scott like

16:52

identification and being able to look across the

16:54

circle and identify with somebody else gets been

16:56

and of important component of a lot of

16:58

people's recovery for a long time. On those

17:01

a beautiful thing to say. There's

17:05

a powerful thing for me com and it continues

17:07

to be as I go to the world that

17:09

whenever I'm the most uncomfortable since I can identify

17:11

with somebody else, I feel more. On

17:15

or at as a human I

17:17

feel equal and ah the growth

17:19

starts. they are and so can

17:21

I Think at as people look

17:23

for solutions right Things that like

17:25

they that magic pill, that prescription

17:27

that doctor that books you know

17:29

I'm connection can still sort of

17:31

be one of those things and

17:33

I'm really glad. Yeah. I'm glad

17:35

you came on the show am I

17:38

might take your books on where my

17:40

trips the summer and read it it

17:42

sounds. I love the history of addiction

17:44

the idea the bigger umbrella am I

17:47

can't believe that Toward Addiction Showed up

17:49

in the sixteenth century and have found

17:51

to be fascinating information and it's also

17:54

very interesting to hear you talk about

17:56

the cultures of of our history time

17:58

dealing with this. Subject matter and

18:01

and there we see today with it.

18:03

So thank you Scott to the requests

18:05

use of have a Meal it's integrated

18:07

covers illnesses as read on command. Thank

18:09

you so much for listening! Catharsis Produced

18:11

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18:13

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