0:00

a singular chain like an Ethereum

0:02

or even a Solana, etc. That

0:05

by itself will not scale. So

0:08

our belief is that as applications start

0:10

to grow and we get more user

0:12

traffic, scale becomes a very significant issue

0:14

for these applications. The only way

0:16

in which they're able to accommodate that traffic

0:18

is to be able to scale horizontally. We

0:21

would need to automate chain deployment for you,

0:23

which we have done. The

0:25

way that we stand up our chainlets

0:27

is every time a developer requests a

0:29

chainlet, then our validators are obligated to

0:31

automatically spin up a chain for them.

0:34

That has the same security model and the

0:36

same validator set as our mainnet. So

0:39

first of all, we wanted to

0:41

completely abstract away the chain creation

0:43

and chain deployment process. Now,

0:46

it's so easy to spin up one, why not spin

0:48

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staking today at Chorus.one. I'm

3:26

sure we can dive into what you learned

3:28

over the last year since you last

3:30

came on. So

3:38

for our listeners, Rebecca was

3:40

on I think April last

3:42

year, almost a year ago

3:44

exactly. Wow, yeah, that's right.

3:48

And so we talked a lot about kind of SAGA's

3:51

architecture and sort of the

3:53

core value proposition there.

3:56

It was much earlier days than today,

3:58

I'm sure. So anyway,

4:01

so maybe you can, we

4:04

can kind of start by talking a

4:06

little bit about the high level

4:09

of Saga, what it is for the people

4:11

that didn't listen to the first episode and

4:13

who you are, maybe we can start there.

4:16

Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's great

4:18

to see you again. It's always great

4:20

to spend time with you guys. Epicenter is definitely

4:22

one of our favorite podcasts and so I did one

4:24

of my tests for sure. Yeah,

4:26

so Saga is a layer one, but

4:29

we are a layer one to launch other layer

4:31

ones. So everything that is built on Saga is

4:33

by definition on their own chain or set

4:35

of chains, which we call chainlet. And

4:38

why do we architect it this way? It

4:40

was for infinite horizontal scalability. So

4:43

our belief is that as applications start

4:45

to grow and we get more user

4:47

traffic, scale becomes a very significant issue

4:49

for these applications. And the only

4:51

way in which they're able to accommodate that traffic

4:53

is to be able to scale horizontally. And

4:57

so at a high level, that is what Saga is. We

4:59

are costless on the front end. So

5:01

we're very careful to specify

5:04

that we're costless as opposed to gasless.

5:07

So it's blockchain. Anytime

5:09

that you're dealing with a chain, there's no such

5:11

thing as no gas. I mean, you can set

5:13

gas to zero, but we don't

5:15

advise it. And

5:17

I think any blockchain engineer architect out there

5:19

will advise you against that, even though it's

5:22

very tempting. So instead, we have a system

5:24

by which your transactions on the front end

5:26

remain costless. It's true that Saga does not

5:29

show up on the front end. We do

5:31

not charge a gas fee to the

5:33

end user. Saga token is used by

5:35

developers to pay the validators to keep

5:37

our chains alive. So given

5:39

all of that, it is a

5:41

system that is optimized for consumer

5:44

adoption. In terms of what

5:46

I've been working on, I mean, running this

5:48

project has been quite insane. I would say

5:50

it's probably one of the most insane things

5:52

that I've ever worked on. I mean, before

5:55

this, I did a crypto startup with Saki. That

5:57

was more in the deep high space. I

6:00

did an AI startup and things

6:02

have definitely changed in that field.

6:04

I mean back then, natural language

6:07

processing was impossible and I mean

6:09

now it's table space, right? People

6:12

don't really think about it anymore. So it's

6:14

been incredible to see the journey over time

6:16

of just what technology sees as the next

6:18

frontier. But this is the most exciting thing

6:20

to be working on at the moment

6:23

for sure and yeah, I'm

6:26

thrilled going into mainnet launch. Yeah,

6:29

that's awesome. There's a lot to dive in there

6:31

and maybe even a little bit the AI use

6:33

case. We can see if Staga returns to its

6:36

origins. But maybe we can

6:38

start like you mentioned infinite

6:40

horizontal scalability. I guess we

6:43

have had a lot of infrastructure

6:46

projects on here. I think that's kind of like

6:48

one of every center's focuses in some

6:50

ways and maybe also like blockchain overall

6:53

focus since we didn't have that many

6:55

consumer apps yet. How do

6:57

you compare

6:59

to other infrastructure projects

7:02

that like I don't know,

7:04

new stuff like shared security,

7:06

restaking, modularity, how do you

7:08

feel Staga fits in there?

7:10

What differentiates from maybe other infrastructure

7:12

products? Yeah, so I

7:16

would put it this way. It's

7:18

always interesting how these tech narratives pop

7:20

up in crypto because the

7:22

side to the matter is you can discuss

7:24

endlessly until you actually have to deliver a

7:27

product. And so at

7:29

saga, we look at all these different

7:31

things, whether it's free staking, shared security,

7:33

I mean, they're kind of that same

7:35

thing. So every protocol has

7:38

different ways of doing it. But they're

7:40

all getting at the same idea, which

7:42

is that a singular chain like an

7:44

Ethereum or even a Solana, etc. That

7:48

by itself will not scale. And

7:50

so the way that you are able

7:52

to scale out something that's existing, or

7:55

how you're able to build a system for

7:57

scalability from the beginning is you're able

7:59

to accommodate for additional block space. So

8:02

you need to be able to provision with

8:04

new block space. And the way that

8:07

some protocols do it is by, you

8:09

know, restaking from another chain that's completely

8:11

foreign to them to their

8:13

own set of chains. At

8:15

SAGA, everything is native. So there is a

8:18

SAGA mainnet. It has a set

8:20

of validators. It is a fully decentralized, proof-of-stake

8:22

Cosmos chain. The way that

8:24

we stand up our chainlets is every

8:26

time a developer requests a chainlet, then

8:29

our validators are obligated to automatically spin

8:31

up a chain for them. That

8:33

has the same security model and the same

8:36

validator set as our mainnet. So

8:38

it is definitely shared security. Can you call it

8:40

restaking? Sure, you can call it restaking because

8:42

we're taking the validator stake from

8:45

the mainnet and then applying it to a

8:47

chainlet. You can call it modular

8:49

as well because we're definitely not doing

8:52

a singular L1. We are an L1

8:54

specifically to proliferate L1. But at SAGA,

8:56

I think that our experience

8:58

is app developers can get quite confused by

9:00

all of these options, especially because A, they

9:03

have to understand what the technology does and

9:05

then B, they have to understand what the

9:07

significance is for them. And

9:09

we tend to want to

9:11

cut to the chase here. And so we tell the

9:13

app developers, you want scale. At the end of the

9:15

day, if you are a game, for instance, which is

9:17

our main focus, you are looking for

9:19

a scale because the fact of the matter

9:22

is, game designers are creatives. So

9:24

as I don't know if you're a gamer, but I'm sure you've

9:26

played lots of games throughout the years, they

9:29

are creatives. And so they have a creative

9:31

vision in their head. And most of the

9:33

time, the technology is nowhere near capable of

9:35

meeting that creative vision. And

9:37

so what we're trying to do at SAGA

9:40

is to get you as close to that

9:42

creative vision as possible. So if you wanted

9:44

to create an MMORPG, for instance, with lore,

9:46

thousands of characters, all of whom are NFTs,

9:48

interoperable assets, you should be able to

9:51

do that. We don't want the base

9:53

infrastructure to constrain your game design, in

9:55

other words. So that's

9:57

how we think of it is, yes, there are these

9:59

technologies. is and honestly some of the best

10:02

researchers and brightest minds in this space are

10:04

working on those narratives. So of course we

10:06

pay attention. But at the end

10:08

of the day, our focus is the end

10:10

user. It is the app developer, the game

10:12

developer in particular. And when

10:14

we build our product, it is really with

10:17

them in mind. Right. Yeah,

10:20

super interesting. And yes, I am like

10:23

so many, like even Vitalik old school

10:26

World of Warcraft gamer. Oh, really? There

10:28

you go. Yeah, you understand. Like

10:30

where the hell did my skin go? Yeah,

10:33

you understand. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I

10:35

think one of the first articles

10:37

I wrote about like why

10:40

blockchain and gaming works back

10:42

in the day was actually about like sort of these portability

10:45

of the assets or the power of the

10:48

game over your assets and stuff. So

10:50

interesting to see. We're probably hopefully soon

10:52

actually getting there that the scale is possible to

10:55

really build a blockchain game. So yeah,

10:57

super curious to hear more about that. Like

11:00

you're saying you're focusing specifically on

11:02

the gaming use case. Can

11:04

you or like I guess also app

11:06

developer perspective, can you describe a bit

11:08

how you do that

11:10

in practice and how you like abstract stuff

11:12

from them that the blockchain does

11:15

or things like that? Yeah,

11:17

so first and foremost, I

11:19

think and this is not a

11:21

small thing. I mean, it's one

11:23

of those things where I think of the

11:26

roll up discussion. It's become sort of a

11:28

more muted part of the conversation. I think it's important

11:30

to remember, which is that building a chain is not

11:32

easy. And so what are

11:34

the components of a fully decentralized proof of stake

11:36

chain? First of all, you need a validator set.

11:40

And that means that you need to be

11:42

a project that can be

11:44

profitable for validators. And

11:47

that already cuts out most of the applications

11:49

out there, especially when they're

11:51

first starting out. Having your

11:53

own chain prior to

11:55

Saga was an enormous lift. So that's the

11:57

first thing that we wanted to solve for.

12:00

developers is if you want your own

12:02

dedicated block space, which is your ticket

12:04

to actually scalable infrastructure, then we

12:07

would need to automate chain deployment for you, which

12:09

we have done. So right

12:11

now in our web app, they honestly use

12:14

a lot of five parameters for your chain,

12:16

and then our validators will take about a minute to

12:19

sync. And then all the services around

12:21

the chain will have to be spun up. So the

12:23

indexer is the RBC endpoints, for sure, the block explorers.

12:26

Once that is done, the whole process

12:28

is maybe about a minute and a half, you

12:31

have your own chain, and you can have as many of

12:33

these as you like. So first

12:35

of all, we wanted to completely

12:37

abstract away the chain creation and

12:39

chain deployment process. Now,

12:42

it's so easy to set up one, why

12:44

not set up multiple, because at the

12:46

end of the day, one chain should be enough for

12:48

most applications to start off with. But

12:50

if you are a large game, for instance, that

12:53

is built on another system, and you are looking

12:55

for a scalable solution now, then you have a

12:57

lot of users and a lot of assets that

12:59

are already built in, you're already

13:01

starting to think about multiple chains. So it

13:03

feels like if you're a WoW player, then

13:05

you know all about game instances, game shards,

13:08

different realms. And this is how game developers

13:10

like to organize their game. And

13:12

so it starts to expand onto multiple chains, but

13:15

it'll still feel like the same application.

13:17

And so it's actually quite similar

13:19

to cloud in that sense, because you probably

13:21

start off with one AWS instance,

13:24

or a couple, and as the

13:26

compute resources you require increase,

13:29

then you would expand to as many

13:31

instances or servers as you as you

13:33

can. So it's the same idea on

13:35

saga, just expand to multiple chains if

13:37

you need that additional performance. Because we're

13:39

all familiar with Cosmos, I can start a little

13:41

differently on this point, which is that IVC allows

13:43

all these teamlets to speak to one another. So

13:46

there is complete interoperability within the Saudi

13:49

ecosystem. Now bridging out to other ecosystems

13:51

is also where it gets interesting.

13:54

I would say that with most

13:56

solutions out there, whether it's roll

13:58

ups for sure. even other

14:00

app chain or side chain solutions, bridging

14:03

is an issue because the way

14:05

that bridging usually works is you have a

14:07

bridge provider and even

14:10

for the ones that are completely decentralized,

14:12

there is still some way in which they will

14:15

whitelist a chain and it's usually

14:17

a BD effort. So you have to talk to

14:19

the core team and get them

14:21

to agree to open up the bridge for the

14:23

assets that are coming from your particular chain. Now

14:27

for most layer ones, for

14:30

any layer one prior to SAGA, that

14:33

was any of the manageable effort because the

14:35

number of layer ones was pretty finite.

14:38

But here we're going for internet

14:40

horizontal scalability and honestly any application developer

14:42

should be able to just spin up

14:44

chains whenever they want and therefore talking

14:46

to the team every single time you're

14:48

gonna spin up a chainlet is not

14:50

scalable. So we needed

14:52

a way in which you can permissionlessly add

14:55

our chainlets to the bridges and then open up

14:57

bridging for the assets that are contained on those

15:00

chains. So the fact that we

15:02

are a fully decentralized proof of stake system

15:04

with cast finality, that gets us to

15:06

that fast bridging and that's something that

15:08

a lot of application developers are looking for as well. They

15:10

just wanna go where the liquidity is. We at SAGA

15:13

think that there is far more

15:15

value that we can create in

15:17

terms of being the hub for these application developers

15:19

than in making sure that all the liquidity is

15:21

locked on here. As we

15:24

know in technology, oftentimes if you are the easiest

15:26

platform to use, then liquidity just happens to find

15:28

you because that's where the user traffic

15:30

and the developer traffic will go. Yeah,

15:32

so those are some ways in which

15:34

we're helping out developers and then the

15:36

cost of transactions. I mentioned earlier that

15:39

is absolutely key. I think especially for

15:41

game developers, many of them

15:43

have aspirations to have their own token or

15:45

they are looking to maybe use a

15:47

token of another ether system even if

15:49

they're coming to us from an Ethereum

15:52

community or polygon community, et cetera. And

15:54

we allow for that kind of flexibility on the

15:56

front end. So we don't interfere with the monetization

15:59

in other words. of these application

16:01

developers with their end users. Yeah,

16:03

the entire system has been really

16:05

architected to maximize the experience for the

16:07

app dev. And I

16:09

think given the attraction that we've

16:11

seen so far, it's resonating. Yeah,

16:15

thanks, that was a lot super interesting. And I might

16:18

as well understand correctly that it's not like

16:21

the assets you bridge have to go kind of

16:23

through the saga hub L1, but they can actually

16:25

go straight from the chain land to

16:28

somewhere else. That's exactly

16:30

right. So every chainlet is a chain.

16:32

It is a fully decentralized proof of

16:34

stake chain in its own rights. And

16:37

so it's able to do everything that

16:39

a layer one can do. The only difference

16:41

really is that we don't require you to

16:43

have your own token for staking, because

16:46

again, everything is, I guess you could say, it's restaked

16:48

from the side of the main chain. And so there's no

16:50

need for you to have a staking token. A

16:53

lot of people will ask about staking

16:55

regardless. I think that's because maybe some

16:57

validators have become important community members for

17:00

these applications for various reasons.

17:04

And they want to be able to

17:06

reward the validators or people who have

17:08

been longstanding community members through the mechanism

17:10

of staking. And it's true, staking is

17:12

an incredibly powerful incentive mechanism. It's why

17:14

many people attempt to stand up layer

17:17

ones. But what we always tell people

17:19

is, okay, I think it's time to change the

17:21

mental model a little bit in that you don't

17:23

have to have actual staking. You don't need to

17:25

secure the network per se, but

17:27

you can have staking. You

17:29

can have people stake their assets in liquidity

17:31

pools or with certain assets based on certain

17:33

activity in your application. It's

17:36

just you no longer have to worry about

17:38

a staking token for purposes of security.

17:41

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I think, I

17:44

guess that it's getting back a bit too,

17:46

because in the end, obviously the app

17:48

chain developer needs to kind of pay for

17:51

Zaga. So maybe that's also,

17:54

yeah, something we can talk about a

17:56

bit. How Does

17:58

this pricing work?? Talk about

18:00

the last time we we can probably go back

18:02

into Dad's. Yeah.

18:04

Surprising is and now than he

18:06

does the very weren't blinds and

18:08

pricing is as very important factor

18:10

for us and the reason for

18:12

that is. Anything that perspective

18:15

an application, developer and gas is

18:17

annoying, not just because it's potentially

18:19

high. And it's unpredictable and

18:22

so when you are trying see

18:24

you actually stand up a project,

18:26

get some traction for at you

18:28

wanna be able to know what's

18:31

that? Costs are pretty, they stack

18:33

and. Headache. For us. When.

18:35

We aren't designed or token of max

18:37

out. That's one thing that we. Really?

18:39

Aims for. Out. With some sort

18:42

of understanding of what the cost is going to be

18:44

for running one of these chains. And.

18:46

And we did not wanted to be reliance

18:48

on gas so so here's a mechanism we

18:50

call and musical chairs every aspect which is

18:53

about A. We. Run of

18:55

are worth ox and among or validators.

18:57

And and that number of validators. Thoughts

18:59

that we're starting off with us around

19:01

Twenty Said Twenty Twenty One. And.

19:04

Am in order to get one of those slots. Add.

19:06

The validators will did they are price

19:09

for providing. Security fourteen might

19:11

for that particular day. And.

19:13

The lowest set of places. things. So.

19:16

If you were in the lower sacrifices

19:18

had spread your very the validating sites

19:20

and to say as priests. In.

19:22

That winning side of prices is the price

19:25

for that particular day. So. Of

19:27

your the validate or who did that and cannot. See

19:29

that exactly? You earnest war. By to

19:31

if you are of alligator that bit. Ashley

19:33

Little cheaper than that, so you're pricing was

19:35

even lower than you actually get a nice

19:37

march and over and above what you had

19:39

originally anticipated, which is quite. A. Few

19:42

tie steel high so you are added

19:44

a validating sad for that particular day

19:46

and. And then not only are

19:48

you not validating, you're actually not getting the

19:50

rewards for being a volunteer for that particular

19:53

day that you're out of the sites. And.

19:55

So this is an incredibly

19:57

powerful mechanism to encourage validate,

20:00

to bid their true cost or as close to

20:02

their true cost as possible for

20:04

providing security for chains. So

20:07

what's the definition of that? It's commodity pricing. So

20:09

we aim to get to commodity pricing for

20:12

our application developers. Now,

20:15

what we're currently clocking in at is about $500 per

20:18

chainlet per month. And

20:21

given that there are no other fees in the

20:23

system, that is probably

20:25

the most affordable way in which

20:27

an application can develop. Whether it's

20:30

on a monolithic layer one or

20:32

whether it's on other side chain

20:34

dedicated blocks based solutions, we aim

20:37

to be the most cost effective. Awesome.

20:41

Yeah, that's really cool. And

20:43

how did you actually arrive at this

20:45

cost? Because I guess that's you running

20:47

it on testnet and validators

20:50

already price in like

20:52

dollars, their sort of cost or how does it actually

20:54

work in practice? Yeah, yeah, no, that's

20:56

exactly right. So for the

20:59

test that we've run so far, they are free of charge.

21:02

They are free of charge. And therefore,

21:05

we are so we haven't actually put

21:07

this mechanism into practice yet. That'll come

21:09

in the phases of mainnet. But

21:12

what we did do with every test set

21:14

was we had the full

21:16

set of validators. So we had ourselves

21:18

that we were a validator. But we

21:20

also invited in what anywhere from like

21:22

20 to 22 other validators to

21:24

be a part of the testnet. And so this

21:27

entire time, we are monitoring the

21:29

collective cost basically, of each chainlet

21:31

that is stood up. And

21:34

for our Pegasus incentivized testnet,

21:36

which is our next to

21:39

last testnet before mainnet, we actually we have a

21:41

testnet v2 that is running right now. But that's

21:43

really for final verification purposes, no one's really meant

21:45

to build or do anything on there. The

21:48

one that we had immediately before was Pegasus.

21:50

And for that one, we, I

21:53

think, maxed out at around 210 chainlets

21:55

or so. So we had a lot of data to

21:57

work with, in other words, so it's based on cost.

22:00

at the moment, it's based on costs.

22:02

And the assumption here is that because

22:04

of how we have architected this reverse

22:06

auction, it should be the case that

22:08

when validators do actually come online and

22:11

participate, that the final pricing will be

22:13

very, very close to the actual cost that they're

22:15

paying. Yeah,

22:17

super interesting. Yeah, like curious to see how

22:19

it like will look on

22:21

mainnet. And if it will turn out like that, I

22:23

guess that will be the big question. So, like

22:26

I saw actually, I mean, yeah, you mentioned

22:28

210 chainlets there on

22:30

the Pegasus testnet. Like

22:33

when you go to mainnet, how many do you

22:35

expect to go live in the first few weeks? Do

22:37

you have an idea of how much it might be?

22:40

Yeah, so our day one mainnet launch

22:43

partners, there are over 100 of them.

22:45

So, I mean, we have

22:49

a solid innovator program, that's our ecosystem program, we've

22:51

been building that for the last year and a

22:53

half, two years. And that has 350

22:55

projects in it. And so not everyone

22:58

is going to come online day one. But

23:01

we definitely wanted to encourage as many people to

23:03

get started as soon as possible as it should

23:05

be over 100. All

23:09

right, yeah, that's that's super exciting. Congrats. That

23:11

sounds like a lot. I think I'm

23:13

assuming a lot of them given the

23:15

core focus is game still, as I

23:17

understand, are games. Can

23:19

you talk a bit about? Yeah,

23:22

is that like the main one? And then maybe how

23:24

do you? Yeah, what did

23:26

you learn from these games? Or how

23:29

what sort of games are there? Like

23:31

what excite you? That which games

23:33

excite you? Yeah, how are

23:35

you approaching these game developers everything

23:38

in that sense? Yes,

23:40

the vast majority are games, and some of them

23:42

are going to be more pure NFT collection. So

23:44

I would say 80% of our ecosystem

23:46

is gaining. And then about 10%

23:48

is more pure NFT and entertainment. And then the

23:51

remaining 10% is DeFi. So we are an L

23:53

one at the end of the day. And

23:55

so there, there are always interesting things that you can do with

23:57

respect to DeFi on an L one, especially year,

24:00

where pretty much every single chainlet is

24:03

going to have at least one token. So that's

24:06

that ecosystem is actually it's starting to gear

24:08

up, which is very exciting to see. But

24:10

in terms of the game, I would

24:13

say that the kind of game

24:15

that is really suited to web

24:17

three is the kind of game

24:20

that really relies on UGC. So

24:22

UGC is user generated content. And

24:25

the reason for that is a decentralized

24:28

system, very frankly, is never going

24:30

to beat what

24:33

kind of computing power AWS and Nvidia

24:35

combined can give you. So if you're

24:37

looking for a game that is meant to be,

24:39

you know, fast moving, high

24:41

performance, completely optimized

24:43

visual experience, blockchain

24:46

is not really meant for that blockchain, I

24:48

hope can support that kind of game. That's

24:51

not the base infrastructure for it. There

24:53

are many other game infrasmic and tooling

24:55

for that particular kind of purpose. So

24:58

what is it that web three and blockchain

25:00

uniquely bring to a game,

25:02

it really is that decentralized generation and

25:04

control of intellectual property.

25:06

So what that means is if you are

25:09

a mod for a game, not not a social

25:11

mod isn't a moderator, but if you modify

25:13

games, for instance, then you are much more

25:15

easily able to monetize that without ever

25:17

having to consult the big studio or

25:20

the original creator of the game. If you

25:22

are a gamer, and you're looking to customize

25:24

your avatars or your skins, then

25:26

this is a great way in which you

25:28

can go ahead and do that and actually retain

25:30

control and monetization of those assets. And

25:33

so it's really those core

25:35

things around ownership, creative freedom,

25:37

that is really suited to web

25:39

free gaming. So the kinds of

25:41

games that we seek out, they do tend to be

25:45

pretty vast in vision. So

25:47

open worlds, MMORPGs, things that

25:49

have lore, but we also

25:51

are starting to see some like

25:54

pretty, pretty fascinating genres come on

25:56

board. So survival horror games as

25:58

well. And some of

26:00

the games that will come online immediately

26:02

are things like Rogue Nation.

26:05

By Moonlit Games there is a

26:08

game called Another World, which is a classic

26:10

RPG game. There's

26:12

a game called Star Heroes. It's

26:14

like its first person shooter, but it's set in

26:16

space. Super fun game. Eternity,

26:19

which is kind of Fortnite, but on jet

26:21

packs. There's significant AI component

26:23

to it. And so those are some

26:25

of the ones I can come up with off the top of my head

26:27

right now. We also recently

26:29

announced a game publishing arm

26:31

at GDC called Saga Origins.

26:34

And anyone can build on Saga. Anyone

26:37

can build on Saga. But in terms

26:39

of the games that we financially back

26:41

and that really get the benefit of

26:43

full publisher services, including go to market,

26:45

user acquisition, creating game awareness, community building,

26:47

etc. All the things that a publisher

26:49

generally does for games. It

26:51

is a very specific kind of game. So we have a

26:53

pretty clear creative point of view at Saga

26:56

when it comes to Origins. So we're

26:58

looking for games that are provocative, expansive,

27:00

and uncompromising. So these are the

27:02

hardcore games. We're looking for that intensity

27:04

of content. And why is

27:07

that? Because again, we're looking for what is

27:09

it that Web 3 can uniquely bring, right?

27:11

And I think

27:13

E for Everyone games are terrific. I

27:15

mean, who wouldn't want a

27:17

game that anyone and everyone from your two

27:19

year old cousin to your 50 year old dad can pay? That's

27:24

awesome. But we think that Web 3 is

27:26

meant to push the envelope. We should be

27:28

a home for that content that will not

27:30

get accepted by big studios. And

27:32

there's quite a lot of that right now. Games

27:34

that are really great quality, but

27:37

the content is just new and acceptable for

27:39

mainstream consumption. But as we

27:41

know, if you build something that

27:44

is of great quality, it's a great product, and

27:46

it resonates with people, it will find them mainstream.

27:48

And so the games that we're starting off with

27:50

for the publishing arm, they do tend to be

27:52

a little bit more intense. They're

27:54

not E for Everyone. They're definitely M games.

27:57

And we think that we're going

27:59

to car about that pretty unique

28:01

niche within Web 3. And I

28:04

mean, we're already seeing an early play testing that people

28:06

are really responding to, maybe a little too much. But

28:09

it's fun. It's a fun

28:11

process of discovery. Right.

28:14

Yeah, that sounds that sounds interesting. So I

28:16

think maybe a weird question here, like, I

28:19

guess, if these games are so intense,

28:21

like, do you do you have any concern that

28:23

like validators might not want to run the infrastructure

28:25

for it or something? Or is that or

28:28

it could use are you addressing that somehow?

28:30

Or is that even? Let

28:32

me let me put it this way. And so

28:35

first and foremost, validators, the beauty of the saga

28:37

system is that so much is automated. So validators

28:39

don't even have to know which chains

28:42

are being run by them. If you are

28:44

within the validator set of saga, then your

28:47

SLA is that you will automatically

28:50

stand up and run whatever chainlet comes

28:52

your way for as long as you

28:54

are a validator. So we've taken the you know, the

28:56

quote unquote choice aspect out of it, which

28:58

just simplifies the whole thing for validators. Now,

29:01

if you are as a validator are so

29:03

offended by the content of certain games on

29:05

saga, such that you don't want to be

29:07

a validator anymore, well, then you are welcome

29:10

to go on Solana and validate some of

29:12

these mean coins. And you know what I'm

29:14

talking about. So yeah, if

29:16

censorship is your thing, then you

29:18

know, go with God. Right,

29:21

right. Yeah, makes sense. Sounds sounds

29:23

fair. Super interesting. And

29:26

so I think one thing I

29:28

also wanted to talk about, I

29:30

mean, first of all, like super just with the publishing house, how

29:32

did you actually like so it's funded by

29:34

saga and in a sense, and it's like its own

29:36

like sort of business, and

29:38

people like working on that?

29:41

Okay, that's super, super exciting. Yeah,

29:43

yeah, yeah. So it's, it's not a separate entity

29:45

right now. So it's still a part of the

29:47

five of 14. But we are

29:50

starting to think about how do we

29:52

like make it itself thing. Because

29:54

I mean, we are focused on gaming,

29:56

entertainment as a chain to begin with,

29:59

most of the people in the this aside at Saga has

30:01

been sort of oriented towards gains this

30:03

entire time anyway. So we're

30:06

starting off the publishing house with just the

30:08

quarantine working on it. But yes, as we

30:10

grow, as we get more titles, as the

30:12

demands for those titles become greater and

30:14

greater than I do think

30:16

that we're going to hire out a specific team for that. Yeah,

30:20

very interesting. Maybe also going

30:22

to like this sort of testnet

30:24

learnings and kind of how it

30:27

is for the validator side. I mean,

30:29

I have like a bit of a background there. So maybe that's

30:31

why I'm interested in it. But yeah,

30:33

how has that been for the value?

30:35

Have they? How

30:37

much infrastructure are we actually talking if

30:40

you're like 210 chain chainlets? Like

30:42

how many? Like how beefy are

30:44

the machines? Or is it like all one machine?

30:46

Or are they like provisioning separate

30:49

infrastructure for this? And yeah,

30:51

I guess what are other learnings were there in

30:53

the testnet maybe aside from the

30:56

price discovery there? Yeah,

30:58

so I would say in

31:00

terms of validators load, so

31:03

far, it's been it's been manageable.

31:06

In terms of having machines a validator has

31:08

to run or to support one of these

31:10

nodes, I think it has been quite manageable.

31:12

And we've seen that for our own validator

31:15

as well. But the thing that we did

31:17

learn, this is interesting is oftentimes when people

31:19

talk about scalability, they focus on things like

31:22

yes, for instance, you know, what your block

31:24

time, what's your time to finality settlements, these

31:27

are things that people focus on. But

31:29

what we learned is

31:31

so midway through Pegasus, the center vice test, that's

31:34

when we ran a developer challenge. And

31:36

we told developers who are part

31:38

of the savvy innovators, as well as outside developers,

31:41

actually, we invited in the community, please

31:43

tell the system just how in the

31:45

system with transactions and just because

31:48

we want to see how we'd respond under

31:50

great duress. And what we

31:52

found is that the chain holds up. So

31:54

the chain holds up nothing wrong with validator operations,

31:56

the chain holds up very well, it's actually the

31:58

services around it that have a problem. So

32:01

for example, the block explorers,

32:04

even some of the RPC endpoints, indexers are, you know,

32:06

there's sort of whatever for now. But

32:09

definitely the block explorer, it was just

32:11

not able to catch up. And what

32:13

I mean by that was when you spin

32:16

up a new chain lines, and you're

32:18

starting to paddle with transactions, I mean, the block explorer

32:20

sort of has to come online at the same time,

32:22

and then keep up with the block reduction. And

32:25

the explorer that we had been using at the

32:27

time, this was not able to do that. And

32:29

any sort of failure of transactions as a result

32:31

of the stress test, it was actually more

32:33

due to the services surrounding the chain.

32:36

And so that's when our engineers were like,

32:38

this is quite interesting to learn. Because

32:41

in the journey to mainnet, they had been

32:43

thinking, okay, we're just going to focus on

32:45

making sure that the chain is entirely stable

32:48

and secure. And that turned out to not

32:50

be the issue. And so ever since that

32:52

particular stress test, and then leading into

32:54

mainnet, now, the engineers have really been

32:56

focused more on the services, and so

32:58

making sure that the services can be

33:00

optimized and catch up with the

33:03

production of block. That was the main learning,

33:05

that was the main learning. And we're

33:07

doing the best that we can right now, given

33:09

the services that are available, and we don't produce

33:11

any of these things ourselves. So we

33:13

don't like have our own native block

33:15

explorer, for instance, we have not built our

33:17

own indexing service. But we are

33:20

doing our own service provider stats

33:22

for RBC endpoints, just for node

33:24

orchestration, because it's more complicated in

33:26

our system than others, where

33:28

every single chain has their own RBC

33:30

endpoint. So if you are integrating with

33:33

saga, there's really no such thing, you're

33:35

really integrating with individual chains. So

33:37

yeah, I think it's optimizing for all of that.

33:40

That's the learning that came out of it.

33:42

It's pretty fascinating. And it

33:44

also gives a good idea of what kinds of projects

33:46

we want to back going forward, not necessarily

33:49

in terms of games, but for growing

33:51

the software protocol. So if you are a developer

33:53

in the community, and you want to contribute

33:55

to this protocol, you're not a part of the core

33:57

team, you know, what are some of the services that

34:00

that will finance in other words, that will give

34:02

grants to in order for you

34:04

to just make this a lot stronger. But yeah,

34:06

it was fascinating. Yeah,

34:08

that's super interesting. It's kind of like once

34:10

you have real usage, you start

34:13

to realize this like base layer is actually maybe

34:16

like Comet BFT is performing

34:18

well but some other things are not. Because even like

34:20

in Ethereum maybe in DeFi you added a bit with

34:22

like MEV and stuff

34:24

there where that was

34:27

probably also a similar realization. And

34:29

so like these services are

34:32

run not by

34:34

like the validators or like the I guess the

34:36

RPC nodes who kind of provides them in the

34:38

end or how are they

34:42

part of the saga system at large. Is

34:44

there like also like some sort of economics around them

34:46

or how do we, how can

34:49

I imagine that? Yeah, at the moment,

34:51

at the moment, it's a package at the moment is a

34:53

package. I mean, oftentimes, these services

34:55

are, you know, they're open source tools,

34:57

they don't really have sort of an

34:59

economic model to them as a PX.

35:03

But having said that, I do think in

35:05

the future, what can happen, we've sort

35:07

of started to plan for this

35:09

already in the roadmap is that there's kind of

35:11

a marketplace of tooling. And so here is

35:13

a saga chain led out of the box.

35:16

It has our validators and security model, it

35:18

has the set of services. And

35:22

I do think that

35:24

there there is actually a packaging for

35:26

the services, which we call the saga

35:28

OS. This is what every chain needs

35:30

in order to run. Now,

35:33

if any component of that saga OS is something that

35:35

you want to switch out, then

35:37

that's entirely possible. But

35:40

it's not possible right now, but we would like for

35:42

it to be possible in the future. So if you

35:44

want to bring your own block of score, for instance,

35:46

if you had your own preferred indexing service, then you

35:49

can switch it out if you wanted to switch out

35:51

any particular component of the chain itself. So if you

35:53

don't like the execution layer, you don't want to use

35:55

the VM, you'd rather use SVM or some other

35:57

kind of virtual machine if you wanted to to

36:00

switch out our DA or somebody else's

36:02

DA, that's also totally fine. So

36:04

it really starts to be this

36:06

marketplace of developer tooling. You

36:08

can see by the way that I've been describing

36:10

the system that we've taken quite a bit of

36:13

inspiration from the cloud because right now if you

36:15

are developing on AWS or Azure or whatever cloud

36:17

service, then there is a very robust marketplace in

36:19

which you can switch out particular tooling for

36:22

your application, your website, whatever it is that

36:24

you're hosting. So we want it

36:26

to be the same idea here. Now, what it does mean

36:28

is that life gets more complicated as

36:31

you start to switch out from the

36:33

main chainlet package. Then

36:35

if any of these individual services that you

36:38

prefer are charging, then you have to bake

36:40

that into the cost. And I mean,

36:42

it may be the case that's audited as some

36:44

sort of revenue share, some sort of package deal

36:47

with these service providers. Those are individual deals that

36:49

need to be negotiated out. But as of right

36:51

now, it's, I think for a mental model, the

36:54

app developers just have to keep in mind

36:56

that if you start to customize to that

36:58

extent, then it's likely that your costs may,

37:00

they'll start to vary, they'll just mark, they'll

37:02

get more complicated. Right,

37:05

yeah, it makes perfect sense. I think, yeah, interesting

37:07

how to see that develop maybe

37:09

in the long run, how much of that,

37:12

yeah, marketplace can be like done

37:14

through Saga or how it maybe integrated the protocol in the

37:16

long run. I guess there's like a lot of things to

37:19

think about there. Saga itself,

37:21

like you said, has a mainnet or is that

37:24

one, has a chain.

37:26

And I read a bit of

37:29

an article where you kind

37:31

of describe the rollout of the Saga

37:33

mainnet. So I mean, I'm probably a

37:35

lot of people here are familiar with

37:38

like how Cosmos chains generally are launched. Maybe,

37:41

can you explain a

37:43

bit how you're approaching this? And I

37:45

guess you have like all these different chainlets and

37:47

there's a bunch more complexity of

37:50

how this rollout needs to happen. So I found that

37:52

pretty interesting how you're doing that. Yeah,

37:56

so I think in the opinion of...

38:00

and Jake McDormand, who is our brilliant

38:02

co-founder, CTO, and

38:04

Bob Dinn, Ellen Senderiski, who is our

38:06

co-founder of VP of engineering. I

38:08

think it's a massive system that we're

38:10

building, something that is infinitely scalable on

38:12

a horizontal vector. I mean, this is

38:14

a system that can break down in

38:16

so many ways. And

38:19

so when we wanted to design

38:21

the rollout for Mainnet, we

38:23

could just have it all

38:25

exploded out there without

38:27

a ton of user testing along the way,

38:29

or we can do a phase rollout. Because

38:32

what's going to come out, or maybe

38:34

by the time that this airs, what

38:36

has come out as our side of

38:38

Mainnet, it is a gated launch. And

38:41

so it is a chain-to-launch chain.

38:43

So it's in layer one to launch other layer ones.

38:45

But we are still keeping

38:48

the security chain decentralized. And

38:51

then the platform chain itself,

38:54

it has a very simple task of just standing

38:56

up these chainlets. Now, what

38:58

happens through phases two through six of

39:00

Mainnet launch is that we start to

39:02

add in some critical services, like IBC. That

39:04

is probably the most important one, so that

39:06

the chainlets can speak to one another. We'll

39:08

also further decentralize the validator set as well.

39:12

And then by the time we get to full feature

39:14

Mainnet version one, which will be in

39:16

a few months from now, that's

39:19

when we know that the system can scale

39:21

in a really sustainable way, that

39:23

all the chainlets can speak to one another. And

39:26

we will have established some of those

39:28

early bridges that go directly from each

39:30

of the individual chainlets as they are

39:32

set up out to other ecosystems, and

39:34

then out to their, say, NFT marketplaces

39:36

or their DEXs as well. I think

39:38

the reason why we wanted to roll it out like

39:40

this is we know the kind of user traffic that

39:42

we're going to deal with. And rather

39:45

than risk everyone coming on at

39:47

the same time and this whole

39:49

thing just kind of exploding and the

39:51

chain dying, let's go ahead and phase

39:53

it out in a way such that

39:55

it's very useful at every point, but

39:57

it's still relatively safe. That

39:59

was the thinking. behind it. Yeah,

40:02

so that's the technical launch plan. I

40:05

think what's going to end up happening actually

40:07

is even though we divided everything

40:09

after phase one into five additional phases, we

40:11

might start merging some of these. I think

40:14

along the way the engineers have learned, okay, there

40:16

are some things that we can optimize for here.

40:18

So yeah, it should be

40:20

the next few months. Yeah,

40:23

I think it's very, very

40:26

thoughtful already to have thought like this far

40:28

and build like this plan. I think in

40:30

many ways, we have seen many launches that

40:32

kind of did it while it

40:35

happened, you know, while the plane was flying. So

40:37

I think this seems to

40:39

be like a very thought through approach. And I mean,

40:41

if you can optimize it more, that's great, right?

40:44

So yeah, pretty keen

40:46

to see how it will go now. I

40:49

guess, yeah, like you said, hopefully, once this

40:51

airs or it might already be live. So

40:53

yeah, best of luck at

40:55

this moment. Yeah,

40:58

I think I guess to another point, which

41:00

is all like a big part of the

41:02

launch, and especially nowadays in this market, the

41:04

thing that people care about a lot, I

41:06

guess is the saga token itself and the

41:08

token launch, you did have some interesting

41:11

campaigns and like airdrops. I mean, I

41:13

guess you were building or

41:15

focused on games. So gamification is also

41:18

core to your business in some

41:20

sense. But yeah, maybe can you

41:22

explain a bit? Yeah,

41:25

the thinking behind like sort of the allocations

41:28

or how you conducted the airdrop? Yeah,

41:30

and how it all worked. First

41:33

of all, the airdrop criteria that you

41:35

saw for the community is a result

41:37

of several months of work on

41:39

the part of our token team, which is led

41:41

by Jin Kwon, our co founder to strategy

41:43

officer. And the goal

41:46

was to really encourage

41:48

loyal long term community

41:50

members. And within

41:52

a cosmo system that's evidenced by

41:54

staking. So we wanted

41:57

to target the most loyal stakers

41:59

and And in terms of

42:01

sort of narrowing in on the subset

42:03

of stakers and how the budget will

42:05

be allocated between them, so we

42:08

wanted to target roughly 200,000 wallets.

42:12

That was our goal. That was the ceiling

42:14

for this particular campaign. Overall, for

42:16

airdrops, we have allocated 20% of

42:19

our total token supply, but that is going to

42:21

be airdropped out over the entire life of the

42:23

project, not necessarily just for Genesys. For

42:26

our Genesys drop, we wanted 6%. And

42:29

among that 6%, we wanted to reserve

42:32

about 4% for those stakers. So

42:35

knowing that and knowing that we wanted to target

42:37

roughly 200,000 wallets overall, that's

42:40

when we started to look at the ecosystems that

42:42

are of interest to us. So obviously, Cosmos is

42:44

a big one. That is the ecosystem that we

42:46

came from. It underlies

42:48

our core technology. So

42:50

we wanted to reward Cosmos stakers, for sure. We

42:53

wanted to reward Celestia stakers. Celestia is our

42:55

first major partner. Our partnership was

42:57

formed, God, like maybe

42:59

14 months ago or so,

43:02

a long time ago. And

43:04

ever since then, I mean, we've been working

43:06

together incredibly well, and the team has

43:08

pulled off amazing technical feeds. So we

43:10

definitely wanted to reward their stakers. Polygon

43:14

and Avalanche were the two other major tech partners

43:16

for us. So for Polygon, we automate CDK chains

43:18

for them. And

43:20

for Avalanche, we automate Avalanche subnets.

43:23

So CDK chains, subnets, these are

43:26

both also ideas of dedicated block space.

43:28

But the reason why they are

43:31

just, they're harder to stand up is that it's still

43:33

a very manual process. And one thing that Saga really

43:35

excels at is that automation. So

43:37

those two ecosystems have also been very supportive

43:40

of us. The leadership teams, for sure, have

43:42

been incredible to Saga. So

43:44

we wanted to reward them. And we wanted

43:46

roughly the same number of wallets

43:48

per ecosystem. So given that,

43:50

we started to look at snapshots. And

43:53

the thing about Polygon and

43:55

Avalanche is neither of these

43:58

ecosystems hugely emphasized making

44:00

certainly not to the extent that Cosmos does. And

44:02

so when we came up with the air draw criteria,

44:04

we worked very closely with our foundations to figure

44:07

out, OK, what does loyalty mean to you guys?

44:09

It could be that people are staking, but it

44:11

could also be in the case of Polygon that

44:13

people are using various EKEVM bridge quite frequently. That

44:15

is a sign of loyalty for them. So

44:18

we worked very closely to come up with criteria for that.

44:20

And then for Celestia, this

44:23

was definitely one where we

44:25

had to think a little bit about how

44:27

to form this criteria, because it's a very

44:29

young chain. And so how do you define

44:31

loyalty for a chain that is that young?

44:33

So the snapshot that we generated, it was

44:35

a balance of, OK, this air drop is

44:37

happening now, and so we have to cut

44:39

off the snapshot at some point. But

44:42

at the same time, we want to make sure that people

44:44

had some amount of time to stake before

44:46

they get included in the snapshot. And

44:49

so we worked with the core team

44:51

there as well to define, OK, who

44:53

gets into this eligibility group. And

44:55

then for Cosmos, there are a lot of

44:57

stakers. There are a lot, too many, to

45:00

have been included in this air drop. And

45:02

so the criteria that we came up

45:04

with is pretty creative. It

45:07

was also something that we came up in conjunction

45:09

with Chris Berniskey, a placeholder, which is our lead

45:11

investor. It is to

45:13

have stake increase over time. So

45:16

if you built up your stake in Cosmos

45:18

through the bear market, you are probably one

45:20

of the most loyal members here. And so

45:22

we wanted to definitely reward for that. So

45:24

that's how we came up with the eligibility

45:26

criteria for all the stakers. Now for the remaining

45:28

2%, that is more community drop.

45:31

So that was for our innovators, first and foremost.

45:33

So the people who have been building on Saga

45:36

this entire time, they've been doing it without any

45:38

grants. So other teams are throwing

45:40

money at them, throwing tokens

45:42

at them, but they chose to build on Saga.

45:45

And so we wanted to reward them, certainly,

45:47

for all the work that they've done here

45:49

so far. We also wanted to help out

45:51

the games. And honestly, this was when we

45:53

started to really believe that we could do

45:55

a publishing house, a publishing house

45:57

at the end of the day as a user acquisition engine.

46:00

And we wanted to make sure that

46:02

we could actually incentivize users to come

46:04

play our games. So we invented Play

46:06

to Airdrop, which is a very popular mechanism now

46:08

within gaming. It's a simple

46:10

idea. You play the games. The leaderboards are

46:12

eligible for airdrops, and in this case, airdrops

46:14

of socket tokens. So

46:16

we ran like 50-plus tournaments, probably, throughout

46:19

the months of December, January, February, a

46:21

little bit into early March as well.

46:24

And the user acquisition numbers were absolutely

46:26

fantastic. So this was a successful campaign

46:28

for all the games that participated, but also

46:30

for the entire community. So that's how

46:32

we were spicing all the

46:34

individual airdrops. And then we

46:37

thought, OK, we have to do something for a culture,

46:39

because we are coming into

46:42

this having taken a lot of

46:44

the work that early NFT projects have already done.

46:47

So we pay tribute to CryptoPumps.

46:50

So we dropped to Pumps, to

46:52

BoardApes as well as

46:54

one of the most OG NFT collections.

46:57

And then we also airdropped to Bad Kids, just

47:00

to pay tribute to Cosmos. So yeah,

47:02

that's how we came up with the overall

47:05

airdrop criteria. There will be additional

47:07

airdrops through phases 2 through 6 of mainnet

47:09

launch. So people were not included in the

47:11

original Genesis airdrop. There's still a chance for

47:13

mainnet launch to get an

47:15

airdrop. And then there's an additional 10% of airdrops

47:17

after that. So definitely a huge

47:19

emphasis on using this mechanism. Our airdrop

47:22

planes page is going to live on

47:24

basically forever, I think, given just how

47:26

central airdrops are to a lot of

47:28

our community building efforts. And it's not

47:30

just going to be airdrops of SAVIA

47:32

tokens that are going to go through

47:34

that page. I think for many of

47:37

our chainlets, our game partners as

47:39

well, they'll also be using it. So yeah,

47:41

that was a lot to feel like. But I

47:44

think they're, yeah, well, I've been

47:46

curious about it. So I just want to lay it out there. No,

47:50

yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, I think it's a

47:52

good example of how much you've thought about

47:54

this and kind of targeted.

47:57

So I think, yeah, actually interesting

47:59

to hear. I guess make sense games want

48:01

to maybe use it. So it's kind of like part

48:03

of the saga stack to

48:05

also get like sort of these features

48:08

almost delivered to you. So

48:11

if you're a game developer, you know where to go. I

48:14

think we covered everything I wanted to talk about. So yeah, thanks

48:16

so much for coming out in this short time

48:18

before launch Rebecca. And maybe if you

48:20

want to like some final

48:22

thing you want to share or where people

48:24

can learn more or anything like that,

48:26

please feel free to do so. Absolutely,

48:29

thanks so much for having me. It's definitely

48:31

a lot of fun. Always great to catch

48:33

up with you. And yeah, I mean, we

48:35

covered a lot of territory there. I

48:38

think that this will be a very exciting period. I

48:40

mean, heading into the post

48:42

launch period, I think people will start

48:45

to understand how

48:47

it is that we made

48:49

our choices for our underlying

48:51

architecture and then how it is that

48:53

we approach distribution. So the

48:56

challenge of Web3 is that so much

48:58

of what we do already

49:01

has a basis in like Web2

49:04

and like traditional programming, traditional gaming,

49:06

but what is unique to this particular

49:08

space? I think that that is the

49:11

question that has obsessed saga

49:13

for a very, very long time. So

49:15

I think that with

49:17

the system that we've built

49:20

for infinite horizontal scalability that a lot of

49:22

app developers are going to figure out, okay,

49:24

you can do a decentralized system, but it

49:26

is still eminently scalable. And so it can

49:28

take on this consumer volume. And then in

49:30

terms of the distribution channels, yes,

49:33

I mean, all the usual ways in which you

49:35

get user acquisition for a game or any sort

49:37

of application, they still apply here. So marketing is

49:40

marketing is marketing. But at the end of the

49:42

day, Web3, because of

49:44

community building aspects and because

49:46

of the aspects of ownership and

49:48

control of your own assets and your

49:50

place within these communities and ecosystems, there

49:53

are many more powerful tools that you

49:55

can unlock if you're built on this

49:57

technology. And I think that people

49:59

are... going to very broadly recognize that

50:02

through the campaigns that we run both

50:04

here in crypto and so people who

50:06

have been in the space for a

50:08

long time but also for people

50:10

who've never touched it before. That's

50:12

part of our goal is how

50:15

do we bring in people this cycle who are

50:17

I'm sure they've heard of crypto, they're crypto

50:19

curious but they've never actually used any of

50:21

the products before. That's a huge goal

50:24

of ours. So yeah, I mean our

50:26

journey really starts now for a lot of

50:28

people, mainnet launch is such a huge lift

50:31

that there's a giant exhale afterwards and people

50:33

just kind of like you need a little

50:35

bit of time to recover. I'm sure our

50:37

team will take a little bit of that as

50:39

well but this is really just the beginning. I

50:41

mean we're recording this before mainnet goes live but

50:44

already there's an extensive post-launch plan.

50:46

So yeah, we're not slowing down.

50:48

I mean that's just too

50:50

much exciting work to be

50:53

done. Awesome, yeah thanks so much

50:55

again and yeah best of luck with the launch

50:57

and hope we're gonna see some saga apps

51:00

be like among the top most

51:02

used crypto apps in the next few

51:05

weeks and months. So yeah,

51:07

exciting. Thanks so much and see

51:09

you soon, maybe next year, one year after

51:11

launch. Awesome, thanks so much,

51:13

Felix. Take care. Thank

51:17

you for joining us on this week's episode. We

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