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action to de-risk your organization. Go

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to vanta.com/decoder for your

1:31

free risk assessment. Hey,

1:34

everybody. It's Eli. Decoder is off this week.

1:36

We took the long weekend. But we'll be

1:38

back next week with both the interview and

1:40

our new explainer episodes. We are very excited

1:42

about what's on our schedule. In

1:44

the meantime, I thought you all might enjoy

1:46

a conversation I had with Kara Swisher, The

1:48

Wall Street Journal's Joanna Stern, and Bloomberg's Mark

1:50

Gurman about the Apple Vision Pro. All

1:53

of us have been covering Apple for a very

1:55

long time, and we had fun swapping impressions, talking

1:57

strategy, and sharing what we liked and did. like

2:00

about Apple's new $3500 headset. Kara

2:03

was very good at getting us all to talk

2:05

less about whether you should buy this thing, and

2:07

more about why Apple built it and where it

2:09

might go from here. One thing to

2:11

note, this episode was recorded a few weeks ago. In

2:14

that time, some early adopters have been returning

2:16

their units, citing comfort and ice train problems.

2:18

We don't have any data on how widespread

2:20

those returns are, and a certain level of

2:22

customer returns is pretty normal for a new

2:24

product. Mark actually has some new

2:26

reporting in Bloomberg that says the return rate

2:28

for the Vision Pro is actually between average

2:31

and above average, depending on the Apple retail

2:33

location. With that mixed early

2:35

reception, especially from die-hard Apple fans,

2:37

speaks to the very real challenge

2:39

this industry has in trying

2:41

to put a computer on your face. Okay,

2:44

this is on with Kara Swisher. Is the

2:46

Vision Pro all that? Here we go. Hey

3:01

everyone, it's your New Year's Magazine on the Vax

3:03

Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara

3:05

Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And

3:07

today, because I am at heart a geek, we're

3:09

going to talk about Apple and its new Vision,

3:12

specifically the Vision Pro, the

3:14

company's much-anticipated venture into AR,

3:17

VR, mixed reality space, or

3:19

spatial computing, as the company is calling it.

3:21

That's exactly what it is. I have actually

3:23

had two demos of it. And

3:26

I've been reporting on these VR AR launches

3:28

for more than, I think it's three

3:30

decades now. I just unearthed a

3:33

Washington Post article on touchable computing, where I

3:35

tried to get the person at Best Buy

3:38

demoing it for me to mention porn, which

3:40

they did not. In any case, I know

3:42

a lot about this topic, and I've been

3:44

anticipating someone getting it right. And

3:46

we're going to talk about whether Apple has done that.

3:49

And in fact, back at the 2005

3:51

conference that Walt Mossberg and I did,

3:54

we interviewed Apple's visionary founder, Steve

3:56

Jobs, on stage and asked him

3:59

about getting the video onto

4:01

the iPhone? The fundamental

4:03

problem here is that headphones are a

4:05

miraculous thing. You put a pair of headphones,

4:07

and you get the same experience you get

4:09

with a great pair of speakers. There's

4:11

no such thing as headphones for video. There's

4:15

not something I can carry with me that I can

4:17

put on, and it gives me the same experience I

4:20

get when I'm watching my 50-inch plasma display at home.

4:23

And until somebody invents that, you're

4:25

going to have these opposing constraints. They

4:27

have those huge goggles you can wear. But

4:30

you never get a date if you ever wear them. Welcome

4:33

to The Single Life, I guess. A

4:36

lot of people are talking about this. Nearly 20

4:38

years later, it's also worth asking the question if

4:40

the Vision Pro is the exact compromise that Steve

4:42

Jobs was worried it would be. I

4:45

had a chance to demo the Vision

4:47

Pro actually twice, as did two of

4:49

my guests today. Wall Street Journal senior

4:51

personal tech columnist Joanna Stern did a

4:53

full immersion program. Fox's Neelai

4:56

Patel, editor-in-chief of The Verge and

4:58

host of the Decoder podcast, reviewed

5:00

it as well. We're also

5:02

joined by Mark Gurman, chief correspondent on

5:04

Apple and other tech for Bloomberg, who's

5:06

been reporting on this market, and especially

5:08

Apple, about what it means for its

5:11

business. We'll discuss how the Vision

5:13

Pro fits into Apple's vision of the future

5:15

of its huge ecosystem. And we'll talk about

5:17

some of the blowback the company has been

5:20

facing because of its dominance in the mobile

5:22

sector, such as the App

5:24

Store and, of course, the antitrust actions

5:26

that might be taken against it. This

5:28

is the first big product launch in

5:30

nearly 10 years since the Apple

5:32

Watch, and maybe the last one that

5:34

Apple CEO Tim Cook will oversee during

5:37

his tenure, unless they get the

5:39

Apple car out sooner than planned, but it looks

5:41

like they're moving away from that space. So ask

5:43

for their thoughts about succession plans for the largest

5:45

company in the world and what comes next. Our

5:48

question of the week is from none other than

5:50

my pivot co-host Scott Galloway, who has not tried

5:52

the Vision Pro but has a lot of opinions

5:55

on it. You can't see it,

5:57

but he's actually wearing ski goggles in this video

5:59

he sent. me. Okay,

6:02

let's give this Apple headset a try.

6:05

Siri, U-Porn, Korean,

6:09

Ladyboy, Freakishly Large

6:11

Hands, Wayward

6:13

Hitchhiker, Safe

6:18

Word Is Maybe. Okay.

6:21

Oh, hey guys, it's

6:23

Scott Galloway here to ask you a question about

6:26

mixed reality headset. So my

6:28

question, Apple has always been successful

6:30

as the second mouse. It

6:33

comes into categories that are already established, laptops,

6:35

MP3 players, phones,

6:38

smartphones. It has never been successful as far

6:40

as I can tell in an entirely new

6:43

hardware. And wasn't this just an ego-driven call

6:45

option that Tim Cook wanted to make sure

6:47

when he greenlit this two or three years

6:49

ago that the Zuck

6:51

didn't establish a means of distribution and

6:53

hardware that Apple would then

6:55

be two or three years behind. And now that

6:58

this is a giant thud, specifically the category of

7:00

headsets, isn't this just a more elegant thud?

7:04

Oh, Scott, as always it's always

7:06

about the sex. Anyway, we'll ask you

7:08

Anna, Neela, and Mark about the question

7:11

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Sipek. E-Trade is a business of

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Morgan Stanley. Hello

9:56

everyone, excited to chat. So the reason I've

9:59

gathered you all. here with me today,

10:01

of course, is the Vision Pro. And

10:03

we're gonna talk about other things. But

10:05

before we begin, just a reminder that

10:07

this will air on Monday, February 5th.

10:09

So after the official launch on Friday

10:11

and after the Q1 earnings reports come

10:13

out, to start out, can each of

10:15

me give me your five-word story of

10:17

the Vision Pro? Here's

10:19

mine. I really like it.

10:22

I think it's the future in computing. I

10:25

know that sounds crazy for me. But

10:27

Joanna, let's start with you. Five

10:30

words? Five, well, whatever, how many words? Okay,

10:32

I like five. I think, no, let's give it five. First

10:35

generation, but really cool.

10:38

Okay, Nealeye? The best

10:40

VR headset ever made is still a VR headset. Oh,

10:43

ha ha ha. And Mark, since you did not

10:45

get a demo or review unit, Mark

10:47

breaks a lot of scoops on Apple and they don't like

10:49

giving him special favors. Talk about

10:51

what you think the importance of it

10:54

is. I think mine

10:56

is six words. It's going to

10:58

take a while. It's

11:01

going to take a while if

11:03

it indeed ever takes off. The

11:05

Apple Watch took maybe three or

11:07

four years to really take off.

11:10

The iPhone probably took two,

11:12

three years. The iPad

11:14

actually took off like a rocket

11:16

out of the gate and then sort of after

11:18

five, six years sort of fell off. But the

11:21

Vision Pro is going to take longer than all of those to take

11:23

off if it does. Okay, that's a lot of words, but I

11:25

like them all. So

11:27

let's get into this. Mark, this idea

11:30

of spatial computing, talk a little bit

11:32

about it because it is

11:34

sort of a new idea, but it's not. Again,

11:37

I wrote a story back in 1993 about this idea. And

11:41

for Tim Cook's case, he has been

11:43

talking about this for a while. We

11:46

had a lunch where the only two

11:48

topics he'd talk about was AR and

11:50

glasses and Auburn football. So

11:52

we ended up talking, because I'm not interested in

11:54

Auburn football. He

11:56

seemed obsessed with it. Mark, talk a little bit

11:59

about the idea. how it's

12:03

excited him, it really has in a lot of ways. Well,

12:06

first on the term spatial computing, I think

12:08

it's a pure marketing play, right? Apple needed

12:10

to sort of take a headset that has

12:12

existed and idea that it existed for a

12:14

decade, put a new spin on it to

12:17

make it seem like an entirely new category,

12:19

right? That's what their marketing people do. And,

12:22

you know, it's interesting because it seems

12:24

like up until about a year ago

12:26

that they were going to sort of

12:28

own the idea that this is a

12:30

mixed reality headset, that this is a

12:32

reality product, right? They changed the name

12:34

of the product from the reality pro

12:36

to the vision pro, fairly

12:38

late in the game. They changed

12:41

the name of the operating system

12:43

at the last minute from XROS

12:45

to Vision OS, XR standing for

12:48

mixed reality, right? So there was probably this

12:50

epiphany that if we're really going to sell

12:52

these things, we need to market it

12:55

as a computer instead of a

12:57

VR or AR headset. In

13:00

terms of the device, you know, there is some

13:02

risk there with Apple coming out with a product,

13:04

spending, you know, eight years of development time and

13:06

several billion dollars in it being a flop. But

13:08

then again, the amount of money they generate, with

13:10

the amount of resources and people they have, you

13:12

have to sometimes make a bet. And what they've

13:15

done here is they've decided that

13:17

the bigger risk is not doing something.

13:19

The bigger risk is not planting, you

13:21

know, a flag in the ground and

13:24

saying, we don't want

13:26

to risk Google or Meta or Amazon or

13:28

whatever. And the next few years coming out

13:30

with a headset that creates this market, we

13:33

might as well be there too. And

13:36

by creating the Vision Pro, they've

13:38

started creating the technologies in the work that

13:40

will eventually allow them to get to the

13:43

glasses form factor. You know, so many people

13:45

made fun of Google Glass when that launched.

13:47

I think it was almost a decade ago

13:49

now. They made fun of the form factor.

13:51

They made fun of people using it in

13:54

the shower. They made fun of the price.

13:56

Well, there was only one person doing that, but go

13:58

ahead. Yeah. Thank

14:00

you for that. I was just going

14:03

to say yesterday he's tweeting at me

14:05

about my photos. Oh, okay. I don't

14:07

know. We'll

14:09

leave that there, but go ahead. Yes.

14:12

But the point is that, funny enough,

14:14

Google nailed the form factor

14:16

a decade ago. They nailed the

14:19

use cases a decade ago, and we've

14:21

gone completely in reverse. So

14:23

it's so funny. Ten years ago, Google

14:26

made fun of actually getting it

14:28

right in so many ways, not the execution, but

14:31

the vision. And ten years from now

14:33

will be probably exactly where Google

14:35

was ten years ago, and people are going

14:37

to love it. Right. It just didn't

14:39

work. It didn't work. I actually have a scene

14:41

in my upcoming book where I'm on a boat

14:43

with all Google people wearing them, and it was

14:45

a dystopian nightmare.

14:48

Right. The technology was terrible. It

14:50

was terrible, and also it didn't get it

14:52

quite right, and Sergey Brin would walk around

14:54

wearing it at Oscar parties and stuff and

14:56

put it on supermodels and things like that.

14:59

But let's talk about that idea of meta

15:01

and also looks and

15:03

things like that. And one clear beta bomb

15:06

you talked about, Joanna, was the

15:08

personas feature. Explain why

15:10

Neela said they did you so

15:12

dirty. Now, it's

15:15

much better than the metaverse at Facebook,

15:17

but that is extraordinarily low bar. So

15:20

Joanna, first talk about that idea

15:22

and then the comparison to the

15:24

meta effort, which is now gone, essentially,

15:26

it looks like. Well, Neela and I were talking about this the

15:29

other day. I mean, is it

15:31

better than what meta is doing? I mean, here's the

15:33

thing. I'm going to give it a yes. I'm

15:36

going to call you, Kara, after my Facebook.

15:38

I mean, you can make that decision. I wish I could

15:40

pump it in right here. But when

15:43

I call people with my persona and

15:45

for people listening who don't know this,

15:47

this is basically because there's no webcam

15:49

pointed at you. They create this 3D

15:51

rendering of you that Neela says I

15:53

look like a PSP, which would

15:55

character. PS3. That's two generations

15:58

behind. I want to be clear. And

16:00

many people say I look like Mona Lisa. I just

16:02

look like a deformed, like

16:05

terrible Botox person. Right.

16:09

And every time I call someone now

16:11

with this, if I call my mom,

16:13

my dad, my sister, my wife, they

16:15

are petrified and I cannot

16:18

have a real conversation. All

16:20

they say is you look terrifying. Please call

16:22

me back on the phone. So what it is, is a

16:24

version of you. It's like an AI version of

16:27

you, something like that. It's your persona. But

16:30

like a really bad version. And I said- Joanna,

16:32

maybe that's what you really look like inside, but go ahead,

16:34

sorry. I said this in the video. I was like, maybe

16:36

this is me. Maybe this is just, you know, I don't

16:39

look, you know, you're looking in the mirror is tough and

16:41

that's what happens. When you get older, looking

16:43

in the mirror is- This thing is gonna

16:46

cause a crisis of confidence across America. Neillai,

16:48

why did you say they did you so dirty

16:50

in your prism? Mine didn't look good either. I

16:52

looked sad and old, but go ahead. Maybe that's

16:54

the case. Well, it has a real problem with hair. I mean,

16:56

all it's doing is it's scanning your face in 3D and then

16:58

wrapping it around a 3D model. So you

17:01

can see where, and that's where the PS3-ness

17:03

of it comes from. Like you can see

17:05

how kind of fundamentally simplistic it is. There's

17:07

no texture there. I think

17:09

it's rude to show up in a meeting in a

17:11

persona. There's only one situation that I think this really

17:14

works out in, is if you don't

17:16

have the optic ID, so that when

17:18

you put it on, it scans your eyes and unlocks. If you don't have

17:20

that and you just have a passcode, you can

17:22

put it on someone else and they can show up

17:24

in meetings in your persona. And I was like, I

17:26

need to get an intern and

17:28

just send them to all my meetings, just

17:31

nodding along. And that would

17:33

be great. But the thing is so, the

17:35

problem they need to solve is there's no front facing camera. So

17:38

you can't go to a meeting wearing a headset. You

17:40

can't see your face. So they need, so this thing

17:42

just replaces that front camera in every app that calls

17:44

for the camera. It's just

17:46

not good enough. Like I think it would be rude to

17:49

call another person with this. Like it is, it's

17:52

about just to turn your camera off. Have a normal conversation

17:54

with another person. So let me ask

17:56

you, Mark, Meta has

17:58

moved out of that business. Moving

18:00

into you were saying they have to plan

18:02

a flag is it still important even if

18:04

it's not good enough Well,

18:07

you know first of all in the persona thing.

18:09

This is going to be interesting coming from me

18:13

I actually don't think it looked that bad. I think

18:15

that First of all, I

18:17

agree with Neil I bet the idea that it might be

18:19

rude to show up in a meeting or awkward to show

18:21

up in a meeting that way I completely agree with that

18:24

But I don't think it looked that terrible

18:26

like I saw you know, all of your

18:28

personas I mean it I could see it

18:30

was Joanna. It was Neel I it was

18:32

Marquez and KBHD Like you could

18:34

really tell it to them and if

18:36

you think about it that it's Replacing

18:39

the ability to have a you

18:41

know front-facing camera. I think it's pretty

18:43

cool technology They've shown that

18:45

it's going to get better But you

18:47

know the little issue with that is their definition

18:49

of better seems to be removing sort of that glass

18:52

box around you To make you look like you're just

18:54

floating what I want to see to get better is

18:56

I want to see it look more realistic I want

18:58

to see less of a delay. Well Joanna is talking

19:02

Joanna wish with her hand movements, right? She

19:05

had to position her hands in a certain

19:07

way. So I want to see improvements there

19:09

But for a beta it did not look

19:11

awful for a thirty five hundred

19:13

dollar beta Okay If

19:17

you're starting if as your starting point, it's not bad

19:19

That's a good but also it's very convenient for them

19:22

to slap the beta term on right? Yeah, they obviously

19:24

slapped the beta term on they were like I

19:27

just imagine I mark You probably ever maybe some reporting

19:29

on this that internally they were like we have to

19:31

ship this We can't ship this without a way to

19:33

do a video call. It's not

19:35

really our standards beta it right

19:38

and they couldn't to Point about meta they have another

19:40

way of doing it, right? They have these emojis that

19:42

you can use in an iPhone today, which are terrible

19:45

But if you ship that you get that and you

19:47

get you get that reaction and then you get

19:49

oh You're just doing what meta is doing with these

19:51

avatars with no legs But let's do these like uncanny

19:53

ps3 characters at least everyone will talk about them. Yeah.

19:56

Yeah, absolutely First Of all, it looks like you're

19:58

like an NBA 2k7. Right

20:00

as fifteen years ago some I have ever

20:02

seen those comparisons. but how long the bronze

20:04

been in a league? you have his original

20:06

and big city characters than that and then

20:08

what it looks like now that he has

20:10

five and had asked what I think the

20:12

transformations can end up looking like the eye

20:14

on us but I thought I was little

20:16

surprised they will with the persona versus the

20:18

Me Moody's thing like I thought they will.me

20:20

Moody's Five years ago to get people prepared

20:22

for this so supply of they shifted from

20:24

there. The other thing that I know they

20:26

considered ah is a mirror accessory to the

20:28

zebra had said he the mere. With a camera

20:30

on. Just joking. Some of. Us

20:33

Anyway, Juliana Abs he said for your

20:35

anti war it for an entire day

20:37

no good people will not be doing

20:39

this by Saudis and because it's meant

20:41

for a couple hours right working or

20:43

something I watch a movie or will

20:45

looking at pictures etc. it is as

20:47

a the immersion stuff is pretty cool.

20:49

How do you compared with other devices

20:51

you video you've tried to snap chat

20:53

ones that met of metaphysical gray bands

20:55

obviously the Arcalis how do you compare.

20:58

The I'd allow. I did a similar video Twenty

21:00

Four Hours in the Metaverse wearing that with the

21:02

quest to. Hands. I. Do

21:04

that. At that point work has every was like what

21:06

are we gonna do in the Metaverse? oh okay of

21:08

at trial these things to the metaverse. I think

21:11

he goes back to you are more grounded

21:13

in the real world in this. So

21:15

sir, it's kind. of more similar

21:17

to a snap chat spectacles or

21:19

of rape and but not really

21:21

because as. Meal I points out

21:24

so clearly the review of Looking. Through a display

21:26

you're looking at this display for snow many

21:28

hours that your eyes start to burn at

21:30

like truly the cucumbers felt the as a

21:32

little bit of the turducken it's a little

21:34

bit of a to.and with I had yeah

21:36

so as you are more grounded the that

21:38

makes being and as much easier right You

21:40

can see around your house better and and

21:42

you can give you could get up and

21:44

walk around and you're not going of see

21:46

are tripping over such things. Obviously the quest

21:48

has that kind of seats are to they

21:50

have passed through their pasts or on that

21:52

quest three that's been improved. Spit it back.

21:54

Quality is like. Things get warps it's

21:56

it's terrible quality. This is far

21:59

far better. The night. So just being

22:01

able to be in. Your real world

22:03

is I think that the difference

22:06

here but. That. The A look. I've

22:08

tried the magic leap and that obviously has.

22:10

Actual lenses where you're seeing your

22:12

world and very a lot of

22:14

compromises there. but. Everything's

22:16

got a compromise or down. From his suit, Neil,

22:18

I wouldn't you think about the idea of the

22:20

wearing it a lot? You don't think people. Were

22:23

in a lot. I don't you have to

22:25

deliver a lot of value to someone to

22:27

get something on their face. Was isn't a

22:29

lot. I don't think that this delivers that

22:31

much value is there's heaps of what might

22:33

com yeah but you gotta make that form

22:35

factor look like to think people will accept

22:37

and then deliver a lot of value and

22:40

it's it's know where I'm at her friends

22:42

just one thing and jumping on glare sir

22:44

I did at the end of their of

22:46

you look I went skiing and them because

22:48

it's the they look like ski goggles. Go

22:51

skiing and them. Obviously it's is obvious he should

22:53

do with these in the reveals by. One.

22:56

Of the things I wanted to try and that was. Recording

22:58

video and photos because.

23:00

One. Thing that has been really

23:02

successful for met our the Ray

23:04

Bans mean not ever that's a

23:06

really successful them. So the massive

23:08

comparatively two sons. And other types of

23:11

markets by. People are getting used to wearing.

23:13

These I take. I met Arabians. Every time

23:15

I go skiing with my kids because I don't

23:17

want to use a sub pull out of phone.

23:19

you know when amazon. I did see Apple being

23:21

interested one day. mean look I think their goal

23:23

is glasses. Camera. Recording.

23:26

In a way which frees enterprise value and

23:28

talking to you were doing. And I

23:30

I would. I do now every week as

23:32

I get an expert for a questions or

23:34

this week is coming from my pin. It

23:36

tells us that Galle who has let me

23:38

be clear.tried it but has a lot of

23:40

opinions about it. He sent a video for

23:42

some unknown reason is wearing ski goggles walking

23:44

around his house. Let's have a listen. And.

23:47

Period was give this apple. has said it's

23:50

fry. Siri. You

23:52

Porn! Korean.

23:55

Lady Boy: freakishly large

23:57

hands, Wayward. Said.

24:00

Like her. Sea.

24:04

Ford is may be. Okay,

24:06

oh. Oh. Hey

24:08

guys, It's Guy Galloway here

24:11

to ask a question about mixed

24:13

reality headset. So my question apple

24:15

has always been successful as the

24:17

second mouse. It. Comes into categories

24:19

that are already established: Laptops: M

24:21

P Three players. As.

24:24

Phone smartphones. It has never been successful

24:26

far as I can tell, and an

24:28

entirely new. Hardware. And wasn't

24:30

the system he goes room and call obscene?

24:32

The Tim Cook wanted to make sure of

24:35

when he greenlit as to whether years ago

24:37

that the Zoc didn't establish a means to

24:39

distribution and hardware. That. Apple within

24:41

be two or three years behind. And now

24:43

that this is a giant thought specifically the

24:45

category of headsets isn't This is a more

24:48

elegant. On. And.

24:50

I'd love for each of you to comment

24:52

on the ego driven call option an elegant

24:54

side. Let's start with you Mark and and

24:56

Gillian and Near Lights. Yeah, I am.

24:58

with all due respect. I don't necessarily

25:01

completely agree with Scott. I think the

25:03

I pad was a bit similar in

25:05

that the idea of tablets was around.

25:07

people had been toying with tablets. I

25:09

think Microsoft wants to the the slate

25:11

a few weeks before the I had

25:13

was announced. I think the difference is

25:16

that. People. Already knew before

25:18

the I think he mother they

25:20

wanted a form faster like a

25:22

tablet. It was pretty obvious a

25:24

tablet was something that would become

25:26

pretty popular and useful in certain

25:28

markets. And then you know, lots

25:30

of people have the now. I

25:32

think the Vr headset market was

25:34

never really proven until now. I

25:36

mean, I saw some data yesterday

25:38

that only eight million shipments happened

25:40

across Twenty Twenty Three. You know

25:43

Apple sells eight million I phones

25:45

when they first come out, yet?

25:47

So. I certainly. Small market some some

25:49

have known as there is a smaller market

25:51

I think it's an honor proven market. And

25:54

I think that the Vr headsets they haven't changed

25:56

the tongue. here. it's as you. I enjoy them

25:58

said it's still the are hints. Joanna.

26:01

I agree with the a lot of what Marx said. I

26:03

think. Work. We knew it. The

26:05

phone. What it was gonna be used

26:07

for. Literally phone texting. Email Those things

26:10

have been proven by other smartphones. same

26:12

tablets, laptops, watches here and this is

26:14

how I took of this approach to

26:16

this review. I. Do Not

26:19

Tell Anyone To Buy This Right now. I don't think most

26:21

people are going to bite us right now. It's an Apple.

26:23

Diehard products. What I did was I put the thing

26:25

on. yeah, I tried to air for twenty. Four hours.

26:27

That was the Cfp, the video and it's

26:29

I will same So little bit in pain

26:31

and I'm always been aware of for twenty

26:33

four hours as clarity and the. Reason I? well,

26:36

maybe a couple of the believe Yeah, go ahead. The

26:38

reason I did that? Was and one of the reasons

26:40

actually like doing that for my testing has to figure out

26:42

where you're going to use this in your daily life. And

26:45

it was still unclear to me after a

26:47

lot about. Time Where someone is going to wear this

26:49

in their daily life right now. By the way, it's

26:51

way too big, it's way too bulky, the battery life sucks

26:53

you not been aware it and all of these parts of

26:55

your daily life as soon a half hours right? Is that

26:58

for as it is unless whenever you're plugged in all

27:00

the time. But the idea in my. Videos plugin like

27:02

all day like I was literally attach the wall

27:04

that. I tried only since working.

27:06

It's pretty cool and working but as

27:08

Neil and I've been discussing, we have

27:10

pretty good works set up that home

27:12

it is a great for watching tv.

27:14

Absolutely. But when I started to really

27:17

push, the thing in my cooking seen in the

27:19

video is kind of gone viral here on this.

27:21

That's. When you start to see what the potential

27:23

of this thing can be and that's with the

27:26

unknown is right now of this kind of form

27:28

factor as we don't know, we don't know know

27:30

right? right? and a lot of ways limit limits

27:32

without we didn't know. if you started doing the

27:34

I phone you would know that over was coming

27:36

you wouldn't You just don't know what's gonna happen

27:38

here in a lot of ways. Correct. That's how

27:40

I feel and I really feel like they're and

27:42

like I had this wow moment when putting and

27:45

I said wow There's a really cool way of

27:47

putting the digital information. My real world. They're

27:49

going to be more of those examples. But right

27:51

now as and Neil I did an incredible job

27:54

pointing out all of the compromises in his review.

27:56

There's just too many compromises and that's

27:58

for tech people. Look at that. we

28:00

are tech people are not normal people

28:03

vs. Ally in the guy has you

28:05

have Neil I let talk about that.

28:07

The I can't talk about the compromises

28:09

and this idea of a spatial computing.

28:11

Yeah, so the putting them in return to

28:13

put a timer over apart and put a

28:15

different time or have another thought into the

28:17

factory labeled the timers Very cool. That's the

28:19

once. The compromises are insane. To get there

28:22

you have to perceive reality all the time

28:24

through screams. To. Do that right

28:26

now right? Which shouldn't? You shouldn't do that

28:28

face So I know like I can move

28:30

you to sing and say this is in

28:32

it. And Gina who agrees

28:34

with me to Scots question that syntax. Tim

28:36

Cook with me tell you what. Saying this

28:38

since to Twenty thirteen and always quotes my

28:41

ribs, Tim Cook and Twenty Sixteen Few people

28:43

are going to view that it's acceptable to

28:45

be enclosed in something simple. Twenty seventeen Virtual

28:47

Reality closes the world out. A Are allows

28:49

individuals who present the world twenty seventeen. I

28:52

also liked the fact that A Are doesn't

28:54

ice away. I've never been a fan of

28:56

the Are because I think it does the

28:58

opposite side of technology to build what they

29:01

want. Grasses. That's

29:03

what they want their got the campo but

29:05

it doesn't exist to the had to build

29:07

this Vr headset and build like a simulation

29:09

of what it might be like and that

29:11

is gonna totally close this market down and

29:14

so they can build the technology that enables

29:16

the product that ever but actually might. Limit.

29:18

What's that you such as a trade off because you

29:20

top three. Tradeoffs: I

29:22

think that when you are looking at the world he

29:24

should be able to see more than forty nine percent

29:26

of the Collins your as can see. Okay, this is

29:28

like a huge philosophical trade off. Me is what you

29:31

have to look at the world through since it doesn't

29:33

work as well. In a dark room

29:35

he gets blurry or. The. Digital information

29:37

says crisp the world around you get swear.

29:39

I'll just say this for Scott. Is

29:42

controlled by your hands. Do.

29:44

You want to use a computer that is always

29:47

watching your hands? Scots our way? That's a fair

29:49

question for start. Galloway. Stupid question by

29:51

the devices. Thirty five hundred dollars now

29:53

a screen If you replace your screen

29:55

with it. a screen costs that. A

29:58

very good stream does an episode. Focus

30:00

on integration to work life. Marquee Report

30:02

on this. They're talking about Aviation Surgery

30:04

teachings. Where do you see the product

30:07

being used and useful and is the

30:09

price point? Problematic. Quest

30:12

Pro which was talking about a selling for

30:14

under a thousand dollars. It was used to

30:16

be higher but it's a higher than a

30:18

lot of the are coming out of China.

30:21

Never Wells is under five hundred dollars. Were

30:23

to talk about the business part. Of this

30:25

in the price, you know it's funny because

30:27

the use cases that they're now trying to

30:30

pitch for the headset or the same is

30:32

like use cases than all the ones magic

30:34

leap everyone else has been talking about for

30:36

five years that went absolutely nowhere. Have you

30:39

ever seen before taking off on an on

30:41

an airplane or technician wearing a headset? Have

30:43

you ever seen a doctor performing surgery wearing

30:45

a whole woman's right? But none of these

30:48

use cases have taken off. Not yeah.

30:50

Now I'm gonna put this is not as you

30:52

that you know, if that that. I'm old enough

30:54

to remember the Newton right? Not yet. But go

30:56

ahead. that's. Right Thumb: Thirty five

30:59

hundred dollars with think is an

31:01

extremely. It's a difficult

31:03

price point to swallow right? I mean

31:05

you get the you, you get the

31:07

top, don't model, you're talking over four

31:10

thousand dollars. they are charging two hundred

31:12

dollars for you know every accessory So

31:14

I sincerely earning money where your glasses

31:16

in there you see on but this

31:18

completely on appealing to the mass consumer.

31:20

For someone like me who's us a

31:22

mix of an Apple Die Hard Attack

31:25

fan and someone who covers the company's

31:27

you know it's something you have to

31:29

get and you know I'm looking forward

31:31

to you know, really diving. Deep into

31:33

the device. I I believe in

31:35

this special computing category. I want

31:37

to be able to use a

31:40

device like this all day instead

31:42

of a laptop. Believe it or

31:44

not, an idiot As disappointing. I'm

31:47

sure a wizard disappointing. You know, to hear

31:49

how heavy the thing is, how difficult it

31:52

would to be able to be used. You

31:54

know, all day, every day. To me it

31:56

seems like something I can only be used

31:58

in in short stints. And I

32:00

think that. We should have

32:03

known this. In June when

32:05

Apple did the original demos with the press

32:07

and it was Cats exactly. It's thirty minutes

32:09

kept and you listen to people who have

32:12

used it over the last six months and

32:14

you know there's a reason for that. you

32:16

kind of want to get off. Diversity

32:18

Demos no longer the Listen demos are are our at

32:20

least as as something like that right? By the way

32:23

I just wanna say one thing. I. Love

32:25

working in the same and like and not at

32:27

my desk that like tim today as to go

32:29

work. At my mom's house and I don't have an

32:31

extra monitor their I have to do a bunch of

32:33

work. I'm. Going to bring this thing and I'm getting at

32:36

well as they get more work done. I'm a always get

32:38

a lot of work done but it's the I think it's

32:40

gonna be a more comfortable. Experience. Like I'm not going

32:42

to have to run around finding a dongle to

32:44

hook up to my dad's kayaking idea either. That.

32:46

Or s right place and I'm going to

32:48

allies. Is that Dell? Is it a Dell?

32:51

Definitely a doubt. It says that like a

32:53

real the of yeah you know a video

32:55

of her. I know it's like my mom

32:57

doesn't even have that the the Fbs So

32:59

so one of the things was right for

33:01

work thing. that's where I see them applications.

33:03

Besides I happen to like Immersive the Emerson

33:06

that he has a lot. I I like

33:08

them on rides when I go to Disneyland

33:10

or Universal to I like the immersive. This

33:12

have some of the stuff which is really

33:14

remarkable Actually one of the things I was

33:16

thinking. About of was an I dragged the

33:18

new head of Cnn their said wanted him

33:21

to see it is it is used to

33:23

take these things for people who don't know.

33:25

If you have an I phone sixteen you

33:27

didn't It has spatial video in it so

33:29

you could loaded up to the saying and

33:31

people could see it and you do feel

33:34

like you're in it. He really is a

33:36

very different experience You can in a war

33:38

correspondent. You could see news being done that

33:40

way. I just kept seeing all kinds of

33:42

little things. I didn't focus on surgery or

33:44

things like that. I was like point. People

33:47

could see like the really in it but.

33:49

Here's the thing. It's. So lonely.

33:51

Mobile Get to that. We're going to get so lonely and I'm.

33:53

I what I felt. Was. Super bitter

33:56

sweet. Watching videos and my daughter in this

33:58

thing that I take his eyes. The

34:00

bunch videos a Christmas Aca than yours and eventually

34:02

after his thing and I'm sitting there was reliving

34:04

my daughter of male presence and playing with family

34:06

and my and. This feels

34:08

like I'm dying elsewhere, right? Like

34:10

I'm just like reliving all these

34:12

moments. I to give you that moves that you

34:14

you are dying. Everybody has that I had such. As

34:18

very slight afraid I'm very on

34:20

brand or something about that that's

34:22

like you're going to be alone

34:25

was having a truly emotional experiences

34:27

that I i think. Connects.

34:29

To the next thing which was you can work in it. But.

34:32

No one else can see what you're doing. You. Can

34:34

work in it. But. You can't

34:36

really have a conversation with someone else

34:38

about what you're doing. So like two

34:40

people wearing to vision prose can't look

34:42

at the same window. Always Enterprise applications,

34:44

Microsoft and maps. and by the way

34:46

it's for the Enterprise is like the

34:48

dying sound of a headset maker. By

34:50

you have to say before you done

34:52

any before it even has come out

34:54

with yeah right ran. All that matters

34:56

is whether you don't exist because it

34:58

can actually see it, can't do that.

35:00

Same city, can't run on. I was

35:02

up again soon enough, but he can't

35:04

see a plane. And like label the parts

35:06

like that as ceiling doesn't exist. Yeah, that's doesn't

35:08

exist, doesn't money? Well as the idea of two

35:11

people wearing vision prose being able to interact with

35:13

each other in certain ways. I mean, but not

35:15

today for thirty five hundred dollars. Let me put

35:17

back on. he like everyone staring at their

35:19

phones on their Apple Max is not does

35:22

feals just as dystopian and dinner. Because I'm

35:24

sure you have is this experience Alter My

35:26

daughter plays Minecraft on her. I've had season

35:28

there. I was his new and species constant.

35:31

Be like look at the sing I made

35:33

and showing it to me and if she

35:35

was for having that experience in the headsets

35:37

couldn't trust do the what? I did find

35:40

dystopian and weird. as with one of their

35:42

first one of the first demo video study

35:44

the B D C was the father wearing

35:46

hats or to a party to record Isis

35:49

daughter blowing overtake are hitting the brown off

35:51

or what not That's not going to happen.

35:53

Perhaps. The reason they have to do that

35:55

was because they didn't want to reveal that

35:57

I've on the team. Pro Functionality: It's early.

36:00

Right, the real use case is recording it on

36:02

your phone and it's a bit of a gimmick

36:04

to have it on the headset. I mean, people

36:06

would complain if the headset didn't have that ability,

36:08

right? But I think no one should use

36:11

that feature. Maybe if you're working and you

36:13

see something and you wanna turn really quick.

36:15

People are working alone at home. Another thing,

36:17

people are working at home alone. So it's

36:19

not. This thing is gonna be a lot of people's

36:21

best TV that they own. And the fact that you can't just like

36:24

watch a movie together without sitting next to each other and putting your

36:26

head down. I don't do that. I watch a lot of stuff

36:28

alone now, which is interesting. Can I just say a positive thing

36:30

on the facial video? So I

36:32

also have been taking spatial video of my kids last

36:35

couple months for the video review. I retreated to a

36:37

Poconos cabin. I did not see my kids for 24

36:39

hours. I really enjoyed watching

36:41

the video of them. I wasn't there with

36:43

them, right? I don't

36:45

think I will feel right like watching a video of them

36:47

in their room, but I was gone

36:49

24 hours work trip. I really liked the

36:52

sort of immersive way of watching that

36:54

memory. Is

36:56

your partner sending you videos? Were you like getting them

36:58

from somewhere else or you're just

37:00

like rewatching? filming them. We went

37:02

to a alpaca farm. This is the best version of

37:05

this thing that has ever been made. It is closer.

37:08

It is closer to what everybody wants.

37:11

I just, the caution I'm making, I don't, I think this

37:13

thing is really fun. I've had a lot of fun using

37:15

it. The people that I made our

37:17

review video with, they were kept reminding me, like

37:19

it's fun. Like get out of your critical review.

37:21

That's right. We're having a

37:23

good time. Great. It's really

37:26

fun. I'm just, what I'm keeping coming back to

37:28

you is this product is not actually the next

37:30

product. Okay. All right. Well, let's talk about

37:32

that business. I'm Mark, as you said, the sales

37:34

of VR, AR headsets plummeted in 2023, meta slash

37:36

thousands of jobs in the metaverse reality

37:39

labs last year. Mark, you've been

37:41

reporting on this market. Where is

37:43

it headed? It needs something, you

37:46

know, earphones that didn't take off

37:48

until the AirPods, right? A lot

37:50

of people were worried about that product. Watch the

37:52

same thing as you noted. It was

37:54

very slow and people were worried about

37:56

it. Where's your tape? Yeah, I think this

37:59

is gonna be great for me. People are going

38:01

to see this $3500 Halo product and

38:03

they're going to say, I don't want to

38:05

drop that much cash on this. I'm

38:07

going to buy the $500 MetaQuest instead and

38:09

check it out. I think it's going to

38:11

be great for Meta. I think it's going

38:13

to be fantastic for products like Joanna mentioned,

38:15

like the Ray-Ban Stories and the Amazon glasses.

38:18

This idea of wearing

38:20

something, I think it could be

38:23

great for wireless earbuds, like AirPods

38:25

and the Samsung buds. I think

38:27

this idea of head worn devices,

38:30

I think it's going to be great for

38:32

that. I disagree that Neela said they're getting

38:34

closer. I don't think they're getting closer. I

38:36

think they're getting further away. They're doubling and

38:38

tripling and tripling down on the idea of

38:40

virtual reality. It's a fake

38:42

AR headset. It's a

38:45

VR headset. Explain that. Well,

38:47

it's an AR headset, it has clear lenses,

38:49

it has wave guides. You're actually seeing what's

38:51

in front of you and the digital content

38:54

is overlaid, similar to what Google Glass did.

38:57

All they've done is they've taken a VR headset,

38:59

not all they've done, but what they've essentially done

39:01

is taken a VR headset and they put cameras

39:05

there to give you video pass-through.

39:08

The real deal is when they have Ray-Ban

39:12

style weighted glasses

39:15

with displays that could essentially do

39:17

75% of what the Vision Pro

39:19

does, but with the weight of real glasses.

39:23

That's the magical product. That's

39:25

five to 10 years away at this point. People

39:28

were wrong back then. You look hot, Kara. Thank you. I'm

39:31

wearing the Google Glass that I got from 100 years

39:33

ago. I'm going to keep it on

39:35

the whole time now. Joanna,

39:38

talk about that. I want to get

39:40

into some other Apple stuff, but the idea of

39:42

where it's going. These

39:45

things might disagree. Right now, technically,

39:47

they cannot do it. Explain why

39:49

they technically cannot give you this

39:51

much fidelity. The

39:53

immersiveness is amazing. It just really

39:55

is. I love it. It

39:58

feels like you're in one of those rides. What

40:00

is the problem and to get to

40:02

something like not necessarily this one? It's

40:04

exactly as Mark and Neil I have

40:06

been saying, right? They had, look, there's

40:09

two ends of the spectrum right now.

40:11

There's at the bottom end, the Ray-Ban

40:13

glasses with cameras and microphones, and some

40:15

small chips that can do some processing

40:17

that connect to your phone. At

40:19

the high end, we've got VR headsets that can

40:21

do a lot more powerful things, and that's what

40:23

we want the future to be. Apple

40:26

had to make a decision. They can't make the

40:28

small dream right now on the bottom end

40:30

of that with all the power and all

40:32

the capabilities that we want in that form

40:34

factor. They went the top end.

40:36

They went, hey, let's throw everything into this and

40:38

try to make the best experience we can today,

40:42

and that's what we have now, $3,500. One

40:45

thing I do want to bring up that I do think

40:47

we've been talking about this market before and your question to

40:50

Mark, I would not underestimate

40:52

the power of the Apple ecosystem here. We

40:56

all, many people, not we, but

40:58

have tons of Apple products. We

41:01

live in iMessage. We live in all of the

41:04

Mac and AirPods and all these things

41:06

connect. Meta can't do that. No

41:09

other company can really do that.

41:11

Google eventually maybe, definitely not Microsoft.

41:14

Putting all those things together, like my wife said to me,

41:17

is there working out in there? Is it connected to my

41:19

watch? I said, not right now, but definitely

41:21

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43:45

Let me talk about the larger ecosystem,

43:47

this huge ecosystem. And it's under fire

43:49

that Apple's boosted revenue by getting a

43:51

cut from third-party software in the app

43:53

store. Some big players said they're holding

43:56

off of launching apps on the Vision

43:58

Pro. Spotify's not in there. Netflix

44:00

is not in there. Mark, first talk

44:02

about that is what happened here and

44:04

why these developers are not rushing. Well,

44:07

what's so interesting about the

44:09

Spotify, Netflix, and YouTube situation

44:12

is they've bypassed the ability to even

44:14

run the iPad versions on the Vision

44:16

Pro. So they're not making native new

44:18

Vision Pro apps, but they're also actively,

44:21

you have to actively tell Apple you don't

44:23

want your iPad app to run on the

44:25

device. That's what Netflix, YouTube, and Spotify have

44:27

done. Three of the biggest streaming services in

44:29

the world. And this is for a device

44:31

that's being positioned and best used as an

44:33

entertainment product. So it is a bit of

44:35

a blow to the Vision Pro. I think

44:37

at some point, YouTube will get

44:39

an app on there. I think perhaps

44:42

enough Netflix customers will complain on Twitter and

44:44

what have you that they don't want to

44:46

keep subscribing to Netflix without a Vision Pro

44:48

app. So eventually they'll give in. I

44:51

think Spotify hates Apple almost more

44:54

than any other developer in

44:56

the entire world. So perhaps Spotify never

44:58

gets there. But certainly, I

45:01

think that there are

45:04

groups of developers that are so angry

45:07

and set up with Apple that they're taking

45:09

out their anger by saying, we're not

45:11

going to come to this platform. Because

45:13

they realized they don't have much to lose.

45:15

You could be angrier with

45:17

Apple than you've ever been with anyone

45:19

in your whole life and still need

45:21

to get an app on the iPhone,

45:23

or your business is going to fold.

45:26

But for a device that's going to sell

45:28

fewer than half a million units or around

45:30

half a million units in the first calendar

45:32

year, if you're not on there, especially after

45:34

Apple's commissions, you're not losing much. You're not

45:36

losing much. Spotify for people who don't know is

45:38

behind the EU suit to get them to open up

45:40

a walled garden for the app. Now Apple is being

45:43

forced to open the stores of this walled garden. Nela,

45:45

can you talk about what's happened, what's about to happen

45:47

in the US and in the EU with the app

45:49

store and how it could impact Apple's bottom line? Just

45:52

for people who don't know, worldwide app

45:54

store sales are estimated to be about

45:56

24 billion a year. Well,

45:58

let's start with the EU, actually happening. In

46:00

the US, we're bad at this. But in the

46:02

EU, they're doing stuff like the digital market act

46:05

passed. Apple has they've been declared

46:07

a gatekeeper platform with the app store in particularly

46:09

on the iPhone, so not on the iPad or

46:11

any of its other apps or any of its

46:13

other platforms. So they're required

46:15

to let other app marketplaces show up

46:17

sell apps, what they have done in

46:19

their first proposal is make the

46:21

commercial terms of doing that so draconian,

46:24

that it makes no sense. Right.

46:26

So they have something called the core

46:28

technology fee, where you have to pay 50 cents

46:32

per download for every app out that you

46:34

distribute outside the store, if you have over

46:36

a million users, which just makes Spotify impossible

46:38

to run, right? Spotify leaves the

46:41

app store, they will just face enormous additional

46:43

costs in a way that you don't face

46:45

any costs on like a Mac or a

46:47

PC, just to distribute their software

46:49

to people. So I think what's gonna happen to

46:51

you is Spotify is gonna make a lot of

46:53

noise saying this is a total bad faith compliance

46:55

of these rules to call it malicious compliance. And

46:58

they're gonna continue to fight that out. What's gonna

47:00

happen in the US with the Vision Pro

47:03

is that the thing that sells VR headsets

47:05

is video games. Yes, we've been doing this

47:07

for a decade. And they're in a fight

47:09

with Epic, which makes Unreal Engine, which is

47:11

the biggest game engine or out. And

47:14

I don't know if Epic's ever the maker of

47:16

Fortnite for people for regular they also make Fortnite.

47:18

One of the biggest games on the quest is

47:20

called Population One, it is just a VR clone

47:22

of Fortnite. This is a real

47:24

problem for them. The thing that sells the

47:26

most quest units to not kids is supernatural,

47:29

which is a fitness video game, and

47:31

beat Saber, which is a fitness video game.

47:34

The meta went and bought supernatural supernatural

47:36

user base is 5050 men and

47:38

women, and it's 60% over 40. So if

47:41

you're trying to mainstream a product, you need an

47:43

app like that that goes and gets mainstream users,

47:45

right? You never went and bought supernatural, the FTC

47:47

tried to stop them, right? Yeah, it said, No,

47:49

no, this is a killer app. We

47:51

want this app to be everywhere. So it

47:53

drives the whole market. But because the Vision

47:56

Pro didn't exist, the FTC lost because there's

47:58

what market are you monopolizing? more

48:00

about the gaming story on the Vision Pro.

48:02

Yeah, but I'm just saying, Apple doesn't have

48:04

those either because the developers are pissed at

48:06

them or because Meta was smart and bought

48:08

them all before Apple had a headset on.

48:10

So they're in a really hard place. Go

48:13

ahead, Mark. I don't agree. I

48:15

think that these VR game developers, they

48:17

really want hand controllers. It's very difficult.

48:20

Yeah, that's the other part. For people

48:22

who go in, let me just explain how

48:24

you control this thing. Yes, I

48:26

made a clear point of this in my review. You

48:28

do not pick up clunky controllers and put them in

48:31

your hands. You just use your hands. You can, though,

48:33

right? They had a controller

48:35

when I was a kid. You can pair

48:37

like a Bluetooth, Xbox controller, or any third-party

48:39

Bluetooth controller and play games. But there's no

48:41

two-hand controllers for navigating around. So a lot

48:43

of the sort of the beaks that are-

48:46

Explain what you do very briefly. You

48:49

scan your hands and that's it. Your

48:51

hands are the controllers. They're your mouse. They're

48:53

the way you get around. And so you just look

48:56

at whatever you want and then you pinch. You

48:58

pinch or you can scroll around. You

49:01

can also tap. You can reach out and

49:03

tap stuff. It's your eye and

49:05

your hands and possibly your voice sometimes.

49:07

Correct. Yeah, I don't use my voice that much.

49:10

Don't forget, this is from the company that famously

49:12

threw away the stylus and it launched the phone.

49:15

And don't forget, 15 years ago, the stylus

49:17

is the way you control the phones. And

49:19

I think they're doing something similar here. However,

49:21

if they want this thing to take off

49:23

as a gaming machine, which as Neelai said,

49:25

is a very poor part of virtual reality

49:27

and augmented reality, they're going to need to

49:29

release their own optional first party gaming

49:32

hand controllers or developers for games are not

49:34

going to come on board. You need Metal

49:37

Gear Solid on this thing. You need something

49:39

like Supernatural on this thing. You

49:41

want it to compete with the PSVR. You

49:44

want it to compete with gaming on gaming

49:46

consoles if you really want it to take

49:48

off. These Apple Arcade games, the blown up

49:50

phone games, blown up iPad games, this is

49:52

not going to get it done. They

49:56

are going to be in deep trouble if they don't

49:58

fix the gaming situation in this process. because,

50:00

Kara, as you said a hundred times, the most

50:02

impressive thing about this device is its immersiveness. You

50:05

want a game in a Vision Pro. You do.

50:08

It's not gonna happen until this gets sorted

50:10

out. You were able to use one of

50:13

the controllers in the game. But that was,

50:15

those were light games. I'm talking about

50:18

the real deal AAA games. This is

50:20

super mar... Yeah, you're right. That

50:22

needs to get resolved. With devices. This device is

50:24

just being held back. Yeah, okay. But we

50:27

keep talking about Supernatural, I mean, they could

50:29

just build their own. I mean, they have whole

50:31

Apple Fitness ecosystem. They're working on

50:33

Fitness Plus. They are working on Fitness Plus

50:35

for the Vision Pro. But Apple tried, the

50:37

reason Meta rushed ahead into buying Supernatural is

50:40

because Apple was gonna buy it. Right,

50:42

right, right, okay. So another potential pitfall in this

50:44

head seat could be privacy. Mark, do you know

50:46

what's happening to the data that's being collected? And

50:48

also, if you're in the wild, people

50:51

have been talking about this, you collect data on

50:53

other people too. And I know

50:55

it shows when you're taking a picture and things like

50:57

that, so people can sort of see you do it.

51:00

But what is the worry there? Yeah,

51:03

I haven't gone through the operating system personally,

51:05

like ripped apart the code to see what's

51:07

actually happening. So I can just tell you

51:09

what they've said, right? They've said that they're

51:12

not doing data collection. Everything is stored on

51:14

the device itself. But obviously, consumers are worried

51:16

about that. Apple said

51:18

in their keynote that where you look

51:21

is very private. What you're doing with your hands

51:23

is very private. And I

51:25

think that would be something they wouldn't want

51:27

to deal with leaking in a data breach or

51:29

anything like that. So I think, I

51:33

know privacy is important, but

51:35

they also are doing this to protect

51:37

themselves, right? A data breach can destroy

51:39

a company. So the less data that

51:41

they collect, the less risk they have

51:43

for the biggest marketing

51:45

issue in their history. But by

51:47

nature of this thing, if you're out in

51:50

the wild, you're collecting data, correct, Eli? Yeah,

51:53

in the sense that you have a bunch of

51:55

cameras and sensors bringing data onto the device. I think the worry

51:58

is always, is that data... going

52:00

out to a cloud where someone else can take it.

52:02

And Apple is historically very good about doing all that

52:04

processing locally. I don't know. I

52:06

think this is a real question for devices

52:08

like this. You asked most people,

52:11

would you allow there to be a camera in your bathroom? And they're

52:13

like, no. And they're like, do you ever take your phone to the

52:15

bathroom? And it's like, you took five cameras to the bathroom. And

52:18

so there's a real gap between where people perceive

52:20

the problems and where the problems actually are.

52:23

I've got a bunch of cameras on my face. Feels

52:25

like Apple has a lot of

52:27

communicating to do about how

52:29

safe that data is. But I don't think

52:31

we actually know. Joanna, had you thought about

52:33

that? I had thought about it. I mean,

52:35

I especially thought about it with these processes

52:37

where you're scanning your face. And

52:40

they're very clear that that's all happening on

52:42

the device, which is really amazing. But you

52:44

are giving all of this data about your

52:46

face. You're turning your face. You're moving. You're doing

52:48

all of this stuff to create a clone of

52:50

yourself. I don't want that. As

52:52

much as my clone does not look like me, one day, it

52:55

may actually look like me. And I would like that

52:57

not to be on Apple

53:00

or any some other company's servers. I've

53:02

actually done this. I did a piece or I did

53:04

an AI clone of myself. And the

53:06

company has a lot of stuff in

53:08

their privacy policy that they have access to this.

53:10

And what if that were to get in the wrong

53:12

hands? And I would be the deep fake that says,

53:16

everyone should go buy the Vision Pro. I

53:18

wouldn't want that. So that was one place I definitely

53:20

was thinking about it during the review. The hands thing.

53:22

The hands things too. In Amazon, if you

53:24

go into Whole Foods now, you want to have your

53:26

palm red so you could buy stuff. And I was

53:28

like, no fucking way. But then I let Apple scan

53:31

my hands. I didn't

53:33

feel quite as bad with Apple doing it. But then I probably

53:36

should. Because obviously on the Amazon one, that

53:38

handprint can work in any store. So obviously

53:40

that's being cloud stored. Whereas on the Apple

53:42

one, it's only on your device. No, I

53:44

got it. I got it. I thought someone was going

53:46

to tell me around dead. I'm Weekend at Bernie's and

53:48

buy things. Cut

53:51

off my hand. But I'm leap red. Oh,

53:53

we good. I need to scare. Whole Foods is

53:55

very expensive. It's so expensive. All right.

53:57

OK. I have a couple more questions about where.

54:00

Apple hasn't been involved is AI, although they

54:02

are in AI, obviously. That's where metas allegedly

54:04

are going to be putting more money instead

54:06

of the metaverse. Obviously, Microsoft, Amazon, Google are

54:08

already big in the race. Some people say

54:10

Apple is falling behind. Others say it's a

54:12

dark horse. Each of you, I want to

54:14

know what you think about Apple's AI future

54:16

here, falling behind, dark horse,

54:18

something in between. Mark, you first, then

54:20

Joanna, then Eli. This is not the

54:22

year of the Vision Pro. This is

54:24

the year of generative AI at Apple.

54:26

This is all about WWDC

54:28

in June and September when the

54:31

iPhone 16 comes out, adding

54:34

AI to every app you

54:36

can imagine, AI-generated music playlists,

54:39

Keynote, being able to type

54:41

in some information and build a presentation for

54:44

you. I think that's the big initiative from

54:46

Apple. I definitely think that

54:48

they are two years behind the competition,

54:50

but I think their implementation that you're

54:52

going to see in iOS is going

54:55

to take generative AI mainstream. I

54:57

think they're even more than a dark

54:59

horse. I think they're going to be

55:01

hugely successful in consumer implementations for generative

55:03

AI. I think it's going

55:05

to look very similar to what Samsung rolled out for the

55:08

S24 in January, AI

55:11

everywhere throughout the device. That's

55:13

exactly what I was going to say. They have to do

55:15

it. They absolutely have to do it. I

55:18

find myself constantly tapping over to the chat GPT

55:20

app when I could easily do some of that

55:22

stuff within the apps I'm in. To Mark's

55:26

point, I've been playing around with the Galaxy S24. What

55:28

they've done there is integrate a lot of the

55:31

Google AI and their own right

55:33

through the operating system. In the Notes app,

55:35

you can summarize your notes. In the text

55:37

messaging app, you can have it rewrite your

55:39

messages, which seems a little bit ridiculous to

55:41

me. They've done that throughout the operating system.

55:43

Apple just seems they have to do it.

55:45

I'll even say in the Vision Pro, there

55:49

is no chat GPT app. They don't have an iPad app,

55:51

so you can't do that. Maybe

55:53

they're working on one. I think

55:55

actually, also another thing that, Mark, I don't know if you have

55:57

reporting on this, but I just think they should do it. be

56:00

looking to team up with OpenAI to

56:02

do some sort of integration. But of

56:04

course, the Microsoft stuff there might make

56:07

some ways. I don't think they

56:09

will. They test

56:11

their GPT technology against OpenAI

56:13

for comparison reasons. I

56:16

would be surprised if they partner with OpenAI

56:18

in any way. I think they're going at

56:21

it alone. You know, the interesting thing about

56:23

the AI initiative at Apple is that it's

56:25

being primarily run in terms of this GenAI

56:27

initiative by Apple's iOS teams.

56:30

You have Craig Federighi and his top

56:32

lieutenant. His name is

56:34

Sebastian Maranow-Mess. Those are

56:37

the guys running the AI implementation

56:39

this year, whereas their head of

56:41

AI, John Villanendrea, he's working on

56:43

more future stuff. Obviously, he's heavily

56:46

involved, but this is really an

56:48

iOS project. Yeah,

56:50

well, at least the theory team is

56:52

hopefully not working on it. So, Mila,

56:55

thoughts on that? Mark's

56:57

point, you understand why it's an iOS, because AI is

56:59

ready to become consumer products now, in a way that

57:02

it just hasn't been ready for a long time. And

57:04

this is a case where Apple does wait and get

57:06

it just right. Right. You look at the AI products

57:08

that exist right now, like they're

57:10

a canon of C plus content. And social media

57:12

does a really good job of filtering out the

57:14

A plus content and showing it to you. But

57:17

day to day, it's like a bunch of C

57:19

plus. And I think Apple needs to consistently deliver

57:21

A plus to win. And I think that's

57:23

what they want to do. And then to

57:25

what Joanna was saying, what they've delivered in

57:27

the past is Siri. So there's a real

57:30

gap between what people expect Apple's sort of

57:32

assistant like products to do and what they

57:34

can do, and where Apple's bar

57:36

for what they should do will be. And

57:39

I think that is why this is the

57:41

year of AI for them. Yeah, Siri's dead.

57:43

She just needs to lie down. Let me just

57:45

finish up talking about its future. I'm going to

57:47

ask one question about succession. But

57:50

first, what's the biggest risk each of you

57:52

in a very short thought?

57:54

What's their biggest challenge? Mark,

57:57

you start short and then Joanna.

58:00

Neillai. Apple's biggest

58:02

risk is missing on the next

58:04

big category. Another company

58:07

winning on that category, Amazon, Google, Meta,

58:10

and then people leaving the Apple ecosystem

58:12

to whatever new ecosystem is built around

58:14

that next category. Any idea what that is? Oh,

58:17

I think it's automotive for sure. I

58:19

think if Apple misses out on the

58:22

car and then Waymo and Google's efforts

58:24

or Amazon and Zook's efforts gets consumerized,

58:26

people jump into the Amazon or Google

58:29

ecosystems. And I think that would be

58:31

very, very bad news for Apple. So I think even

58:33

though the car would probably be a money loser or

58:36

contribute very little in terms of

58:38

profitability, I think it's something they'll have to do. And

58:40

so I think missing on that would be a big

58:42

long-term risk. One of their executives just left

58:44

and went to Rivian. Neillai, you go

58:47

next, actually. I'm

58:49

not so worried about that. Have you seen Google and how

58:51

it operates and its ability to execute? They're

58:53

not worried about that. I think their

58:55

biggest risk is a combination of regulatory

58:57

and hubris. They're not going to sell more iPhones.

58:59

They've sold all the iPhones that they're going to

59:02

sell. And they're just going to turn them over

59:04

into upgrade cycles now. So those sales are flatlined.

59:07

And they're making all of their money charging a tax

59:09

on every button you push on your phone. They've turned

59:11

your phone into a shopping mall. And

59:13

if regulatory decisions across the world break

59:16

open their ability to collect that tax

59:18

or their own hubris pushes developers away

59:20

or to the web, something

59:23

really bad happens to the financials of the company that doesn't let

59:25

it go innovate and make the next platform. Now, they got a

59:27

lot of cash in the bank. Tim Cook is

59:29

an excellent operator of his company.

59:31

I don't think he's going to stumble into that risk. But

59:34

the financial engine of the company is

59:36

under attack right now because it's not

59:38

selling more stuff. It's collecting more rent

59:40

from the users. I think that's a

59:42

real problem. Joanna? I

59:45

think it's a combination of both of those things,

59:47

which is that to create those next big

59:49

categories that Mark was talking about, they have

59:51

to have the trust of the users and

59:53

their developer ecosystem. That is the only way

59:55

they continue to make home run

59:58

products. And so if they can't do. the

1:00:00

innovation on one end and then also bring

1:00:02

along the developer community and the consumers

1:00:04

who have been buying their devices for

1:00:06

so many years, then

1:00:09

what happens? All right. In a podcast interview with

1:00:11

Dua Lipa, he's not talking to us, he's talking

1:00:14

to Dua Lipa, Tim Coates talks about Apple's succession

1:00:16

plan. It's actually a good question by Dua Lipa.

1:00:18

He said the person would come from within Apple

1:00:20

and they're preparing several people. There's been speculation. It

1:00:22

could be Craig Federici, as you

1:00:24

just mentioned, Mark, who's running iOS

1:00:28

and he's been running the AI stuff.

1:00:30

It could be Greg Joswiak, who's head

1:00:32

of worldwide marketing. COO Jeff Williams is

1:00:34

another option on the table. Tim

1:00:37

Cook was COO under Jobs. Tim

1:00:39

Cook looks great, but there is the next

1:00:42

person and he's done an astonishing job 10Xing

1:00:44

the value of this company since Steve Jobs

1:00:46

died. Each of you, let's

1:00:49

start with you, Mark, and then

1:00:51

Joanna, and then Neillai. What

1:00:53

is the succession of Tim Cook? Not

1:00:55

to push him out the door today, but... No, no,

1:00:57

not to push him out the door. If you

1:01:00

asked me this question two years ago, I

1:01:02

probably would have said he was going to retire sooner

1:01:04

rather than later. But at this

1:01:07

point, I think he's probably going

1:01:09

to remain at Apple closer to

1:01:11

the end of the decade. I think I

1:01:13

have a pretty good idea of who the successor

1:01:16

is going to be. It's not someone that you

1:01:18

mentioned. Obviously, Jeff Williams

1:01:20

has been a shoe-in for

1:01:22

quite a while. He's Tim Cook, Tim Cook. He

1:01:30

is now in charge of the design

1:01:32

team. He's in charge of health. He's

1:01:34

in charge of the car. He's

1:01:37

in charge of pretty much all the

1:01:39

big stuff. He also has

1:01:41

the Wall Street credibility and

1:01:43

he has sort of that... But you're saying it's not

1:01:45

someone we mentioned. So it's not that... Credibility. Yeah,

1:01:47

I don't think it's going to be

1:01:49

Jeff unless something happens to Tim or

1:01:52

Tim unexpectedly steps down in the next

1:01:55

few years. I don't think Jeff is

1:01:57

the long-term successor. if

1:02:00

he comes CEO, he's not gonna be in the role more than

1:02:02

three to five years. So I think that

1:02:04

Apple and the board is gonna try to think

1:02:06

a little bit broader. All right, mystery, and I'm

1:02:08

sure- Well Jeff is also at like the same

1:02:10

age as Tim. Like that's a key part of

1:02:12

it. Two years younger, and so that creates an

1:02:15

issue there as well. They have a pretty

1:02:17

deep bench. You know, there's been a lot

1:02:19

of talk about Deirdre O'Brien who's held so

1:02:22

many roles over three decades at the company,

1:02:24

head of retail, you know, so

1:02:26

she's another good option as well, but I think

1:02:28

Apple's probably gonna go in a different direction. All

1:02:30

right, Neelai? I'm rooting for

1:02:32

Greg Jaws, I just like Jaws. Okay, you just

1:02:35

pick him? Okay. I usually use my buddy,

1:02:37

you know, I'm rooting for Jaws. All right, okay. He can do it

1:02:39

like him. He can do it like him. He can do it like

1:02:41

him. He can do it like him. So he can get some great

1:02:43

interviews. I don't think he's your

1:02:45

buddy anymore after your review Neelai. Yeah,

1:02:47

I don't think Jaws is my friend anymore, but he's,

1:02:49

that's what I'm rooting for. Okay. In fact, I think

1:02:51

they're gonna be replacing your slot with me for the

1:02:54

Vision Pro 2 review. No, I don't think so. I'll

1:02:59

go with Craig, I, you know, I love his

1:03:01

hair. I think, you know, nice

1:03:03

image. All right,

1:03:05

I don't know, I have a better thing, but I

1:03:07

will say, Kara, wasn't it on your podcast two years

1:03:09

ago that Tim told you he wouldn't be, he was

1:03:11

basically within the decade, right? He would get another 10

1:03:13

years. Yes, he did.

1:03:16

So, time's coming up. Yeah, he did.

1:03:18

Here's what I will say, if you touch that car,

1:03:20

you're doomed. What do you mean? If you

1:03:23

touch the car project at Apple, that

1:03:25

is the kiss of death. The kiss of death. You're

1:03:28

not gonna succeed, yeah. It is, all it is

1:03:31

is you're blowing money and failing. Like that's what

1:03:33

you're doing. I think it's a persona

1:03:35

version of Steve Jobs. Anyway,

1:03:37

and they've gotta get the hair right, because he

1:03:39

had terrific hair. So,

1:03:41

final question. Tim

1:03:43

Cook has come out of the huge shadow

1:03:46

of legendary Steve Jobs. What

1:03:49

do you think Steve Jobs would think of this Vision

1:03:52

Pro in this direction? Let's

1:03:54

start with Mark, and then Joanna,

1:03:56

and then Neelai. I think

1:03:59

that he would. believe that it

1:04:01

is an over-engineered product that

1:04:04

Apple took too long developing

1:04:07

without a particular

1:04:09

focus. I think he would

1:04:11

think it's a bit all over the place and

1:04:14

they waited too long to bring something

1:04:16

to market. I

1:04:18

think he would think it was very cool,

1:04:20

but I'm not sure it's a product that

1:04:23

would chip under his watch. I think it

1:04:25

would either have waited until the

1:04:27

glasses form factor was ready or was a little

1:04:30

bit less over-engineered. Yeah, he would

1:04:32

not. I think it's a terrific

1:04:34

product, but I agree with you. I think it's got too many

1:04:36

bells and whistles on it. He

1:04:38

didn't like that. He definitely didn't like that. Joanna?

1:04:42

It's funny. There's a lot of times where I'm

1:04:44

wearing the headset and if you don't wear it

1:04:47

the right way, it stops tracking your eyes and

1:04:49

your hands. I kept wanting to

1:04:51

leave the review with, you're wearing it wrong, which

1:04:55

I realized was going to be too inside baseball and

1:04:57

wouldn't fly with my audience. You

1:04:59

were holding it wrong with the iPhone 4 when they

1:05:01

had the antenna issues. I think

1:05:03

just thinking about that, I'm not sure

1:05:06

Steve Jobs would have allowed these small bugs

1:05:08

to be there. I agree. Yeah.

1:05:11

They go away. You can make them go away, but that's a

1:05:13

user thing. I kept thinking about Walt when I was reviewing because

1:05:15

I was thinking, maybe it's me. Maybe it's me. Of

1:05:18

course, it's never the consumer. It's never you. It's

1:05:20

actually the tech. That's not true. It's

1:05:22

sometimes my mother with her eyes closed. It's always my

1:05:25

mother. Right. It might have a big cow for

1:05:27

sure. I think that's where I think

1:05:30

maybe things would have been a little bit better. Little

1:05:32

glitches. You never see them in Apple

1:05:34

because they're so A plus, as I think Neil and I

1:05:36

said. Neil, I... I think you would

1:05:38

have looked at that Doofy external battery pack and fired everybody in

1:05:40

the elevator. Oh,

1:05:42

okay. You're

1:05:46

not wrong. You're not wrong. He would have said Apple

1:05:48

did it dirty. Did it dirty. All right.

1:05:51

I think I agree with all of you. I'll never forget when he came

1:05:53

out after the introduced ping. If you

1:05:55

remember their social networks are... and

1:06:01

he came over to me because Walt wasn't there because he

1:06:03

never spoke to me if Walt was around. And

1:06:06

he said, what do you think? I said, I think it sucks. And

1:06:08

he goes, it sucks. He

1:06:12

knew it. And they killed it pretty quickly.

1:06:15

But yeah, thank you guys so much. This was

1:06:17

so full of really important information for people. Everyone

1:06:19

will see where it goes. It's going on sale.

1:06:21

We'll see how it goes. But as they all

1:06:23

say, this is just the first step in what

1:06:26

is going to be a long line of immersive

1:06:28

technology. And I think that is, this

1:06:31

seems like the beginning of that, even

1:06:34

though it's been going on for 30 years.

1:06:36

Thank you so much, Nealey, Mark and Joanna.

1:06:38

I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Onward,

1:06:46

Carrie Swisher is produced by Naeem Arraza,

1:06:48

Christian Castro-Rossell, Kateri Yoakum, Megan Cunane

1:06:50

and Megan Birney. Special thanks to

1:06:53

Mary Mathis, Kate Gallagher and Andrea

1:06:55

Lopez-Crusado. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda

1:06:57

and Rick Kwan. And our theme

1:06:59

music is by Trackademics. If you're

1:07:01

already following the show, you get

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a tripped out Vision Pro. If

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not, you get Scott Galloway's used

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to podcasts, search for Onward with

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Carrie Swisher and hit follow. Thanks

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for listening to Onward with Carrie

1:07:15

Swisher from New York Magazine, the

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at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back

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on Thursday with more.