0:00

Han. Man, that sunset is

0:02

gorgeous. Grill, patio, sunset? Hard

0:04

to get better than that. Unless

0:06

you're browsing Carvana's inventory while you

0:08

soak it all in. Oh,

0:11

burger time. So sit back,

0:13

get comfortable. Carvana's got thousands of cars under $20,000

0:16

just waiting for you. I

0:19

could stay here forever. Carvana.

0:21

Where car buying meets comfort

0:23

meets convenience. Download the app

0:25

or visit carvana.com today. Whole.

0:32

That's not just the sound of that first sip

0:34

of morning Joe, it's the sound of someone shopping

0:36

for a car on Carmona from the comfort of

0:38

home. As a good world. It's time to

0:40

take it easy. like answering some easy questions

0:43

to get pre qualified for a car and

0:45

minute. Talk about starting the morning right?

0:47

Just like customizing your term so your carpets,

0:49

your budget. And her.

0:52

This a curve on a.com or download

0:54

the app to experience car shopping way

0:56

it should be convenient, comfortable, Ah,

1:01

Have. To your new band in the

1:03

rubber. Fifty Seven. And. Their.

1:05

Of the front page with the

1:07

picture. And. More I said. What?

1:10

The hell if he. He pay.

1:12

Moved out. agreeable to eat. You. Know

1:14

whole what what? And. Then I read

1:16

this: trump picked a herb lot. Hop

1:19

Soviet agent. This

1:22

is Cold War Conversations. If you're

1:24

new here, you come to the

1:27

right place. Still listen to first

1:29

hand Cold War history accounts. Do

1:31

make sure you follow us in

1:34

your podcast app or joy Now

1:36

be mailing list at the Cold

1:38

War conversations.com. The

1:41

recounts the surreal experience of

1:43

learning about fishes true identity

1:45

from a newspaper headline, the

1:47

subsequent F B I interrogations

1:49

in the emotional court testimony,

1:51

or. He struggled to reconcile his

1:54

friendship with the stark reality of

1:56

espionage. First journey

1:58

takes him to Moscow. failed attempt

2:00

to reconnect with Fisher. Revealing

2:03

a labyrinthine world of secrets and

2:06

paranoia, he shares a heartfelt

2:08

letter he left for Fisher, expressing

2:10

regret and longing for a simpler

2:12

time when art not intrigue was

2:14

their common ground. As

2:18

a testament to the personal connection

2:20

they shared, Bert reveals a handcrafted

2:22

wooden box, a wedding gift made

2:24

by Fisher himself, symbolising

2:26

the genuine human connection that

2:28

endured despite the shadowy world

2:30

they navigated. The

2:33

episode is a poignant exploration of

2:35

identity, memory and the complex human

2:38

relationships that defy the black and

2:40

white narrative of the Cold War. I'm

2:43

delighted to welcome Bert to

2:47

our Cold War conversation. Anyway,

2:51

I was about to call

2:53

the cops and I got a phone call.

2:57

At the other end of the line he

2:59

said, hello Bert. And

3:02

I said, Emil, where

3:04

are you doing? And

3:09

then the explanation came and he had

3:11

a heart attack and he was

3:14

sent to hospital in Arizona to

3:16

cooperate. And

3:18

that accounted for the Moscow visit that he

3:20

made. He was gone for

3:22

six months. But

3:28

it strikes me again that

3:35

I suppose in a way I was

3:37

a little annoyed that he had

3:40

expressed such competency, David, to

3:43

care for his

3:45

equipment after he was indicted.

3:49

And also it was something a bit like at this

3:51

point, you discover that your lover

3:54

has been unsafe when

3:56

this young guy

3:58

turned up who was a little bit more than

4:00

a little bit of a bitch. apparently also had

4:02

a very close relationship with him. The guy's name

4:04

was Paul Owen and he

4:07

appeared and disappeared out

4:09

of sight both with the Bernicom

4:12

book and no

4:15

one bothered to question him. I

4:18

mean it's clearly

4:20

possible that his connection

4:24

with Paul Owen was

4:27

as intimate and as friendly as anything

4:29

he had with the guys at

4:32

the Fulton Street Wilmington

4:34

studio. So

4:38

that's another little unanswered question

4:40

and finally

4:44

if you get a category one of

4:46

the things about what happened to Hay

4:48

Hainan was of

4:51

interest whatever his name is, Mackey was

4:53

his assumed name, the

4:57

guy who turned him in. At

4:59

some point apparently

5:03

after the trial, after

5:05

the test order, and after the or

5:10

just at the time of the Brinkley

5:12

film it was reported that he died

5:14

in an auto accident but

5:17

he decided to run the film

5:19

anyway because of its importance in

5:21

the exchange for Gary Powers.

5:25

That went to the highest levels here,

5:27

Kennedy had to approve of it and

5:30

the whole sphere

5:32

going through the whole

5:34

government series. But

5:38

it was then

5:40

questioned after, where

5:44

was the accident? There was no record of

5:47

the accident on the Pennsylvania and

5:50

New Jersey highways where

5:52

it was alleged that he died.

5:54

And then another story came out

5:56

that he died of natural causes.

5:59

Well where did he die of natural

6:01

causes in my place. He

6:04

apparently had a residence in a town in

6:06

New Hampshire and it was decided I was

6:08

going to go track

6:10

down his

6:12

death in King, New Hampshire because

6:15

there would be some record. Okay,

6:18

so I drove, I found this

6:20

little misbegotten little place

6:22

in New Hampshire and

6:26

I started looking. I went

6:29

to one

6:31

hospital and I said, would there be a

6:33

record of this man's demise? There should be

6:35

a coroner's report or health

6:37

report record. They couldn't find that.

6:41

In fact, they didn't even have a record

6:44

of his residence there. So

6:47

talk about spookery. The whole

6:49

thing may have been literally

6:51

expunged that whatever did

6:53

happen to him was

6:55

just wiped off the

6:58

historical record like he never was.

7:02

And it was, it fit

7:06

a pattern of thinking

7:11

about the expediency of

7:14

any agency

7:16

that's involved with

7:19

this kind of work, whether it's counter

7:21

intelligence or top secret or

7:24

something of that nature. That the very

7:26

idea of top secret is

7:28

itself a

7:30

precursor to misinformation and

7:34

it works

7:36

to life. So

7:41

the mystery of old Hayhainen,

7:44

he's wiped away. He's gone. And

7:47

what's left is Willy

7:49

Fisher, noted artist. This was

7:51

published in 1999 by the way after After

8:01

that. The home. And

8:04

with. The

8:07

demise of a a Soviet

8:09

Union which is interesting as

8:11

a followed up. With.

8:15

This kind of. Remembrance And

8:17

supposedly what would it be

8:19

pulled? The

8:22

ends of History of Spooky. I'm

8:24

upset about that. There was no

8:26

longer is kind of world was

8:28

contract. Between simply guys

8:30

in the burqa. Yeah

8:36

thought think the at the

8:38

Ssp the the subsequent organization

8:40

also the Kgb still how

8:42

will he is. One.

8:45

Of their here eyes alongside Loner

8:47

and to Collins as well ah

8:49

are think they're on their own.

8:51

They were on Soviet postage stamps

8:53

as was Willie as well. The

8:57

have. Ah,

9:00

so that they're still held in high

9:02

school high esteem in the Lubyanka. And

9:05

he was. Assessed

9:07

that I wanted to ask

9:10

you about when you first

9:12

learn. The. Ml A.

9:14

Willie. Was

9:16

a spy? When did you learn about

9:18

that? It.

9:21

Was a good passing. A

9:23

new stand in the summer

9:25

of sixty seven. Any

9:29

in the shit. Out

9:31

of his chest. Times headline said

9:33

work past. And their

9:35

of the front page as

9:38

the pictures and mom I

9:40

said. What? The hell is. He

9:43

famous that realize that you know

9:45

who or what. And then

9:47

I read the subtext. the headlines. Pop

9:50

Soviet agent, a summer. And

9:53

the whole thing just sell out of

9:55

the stomach. it

9:58

was I

10:01

mean, the most outrageous

10:04

movie script that you could write

10:06

was being written right at that

10:08

moment. And

10:11

somebody would say, nah, you can't

10:13

believe that. That's a phony. I

10:16

mean, that's a make-believe. And

10:18

it struck most of the people who knew

10:21

him as being equally

10:24

extraordinary and

10:27

unbelievable. So

10:29

that was the first event. That was, again,

10:32

that was my first march. And

10:35

in that summer, I was planning a

10:38

grand tour of Europe with

10:40

my newlywed wife.

10:43

We had neither of us been to Europe. It was

10:45

going to be a three-month kind

10:47

of thing, walking away into

10:49

the great tradition

10:54

of tourism and travel.

10:58

So it

11:00

came as a big shock because at

11:03

the moment I worried I might be able

11:05

to get a passport. And

11:09

I was waiting for a passport at the time. It

11:14

was like everything came crashing

11:16

down in a dramatic

11:19

fashion. I'm

11:24

presuming you were interviewed by the FBI.

11:27

Yes. Yes. How was that?

11:30

Okay. First interview was very, very

11:33

tentative. It's the Robert. I

11:35

was very defensive in a way. I

11:38

didn't know

11:40

what they were really after. And

11:42

I kept saying, maybe they're

11:45

after a couple of guys in the group who

11:49

were CP members or Communist Party

11:51

members. One

11:53

of them described the American Communist

11:55

Party as an

11:57

intellectual coffee clutch. in

12:02

which a lot of people

12:04

got together to discuss arcane subjects

12:06

like political science. I

12:08

mean, it was hardly the revolutionaries

12:11

of first-in-organization that

12:13

McCarthy claimed. I

12:19

think that's related

12:21

to a very specific group.

12:24

There were one

12:26

of the people who he

12:29

was involved with, noted his

12:31

friend, not of mine much so,

12:34

but of some of the other people. He

12:37

was an art director for movies, and

12:40

was also part of the local

12:43

CP unit. He

12:47

thought I deserved to be in the

12:49

group. He said, listen, you've

12:51

committed enough and you have enough.

12:54

I was very anxious

12:56

about it. I really am

12:59

like a

13:02

fringe comedian. Not

13:06

really in the bag, but not

13:09

unsympathetic. And

13:12

I remember having just

13:14

read a copy

13:16

of Bernard Shaw's book on

13:19

socialism and communism. I don't know

13:21

if you know the title, and

13:24

I don't even remember it clearly, but I know

13:27

it contained all of

13:29

the problems,

13:32

the difference between socialism and

13:34

communism, and

13:36

what was going

13:39

to be most productive and

13:41

most counterproductive. So

13:44

I remember saying, okay, I've got this meeting,

13:46

and I don't know what I'm going to

13:49

do, but I Present

13:51

stupid reasons. I caught Bernard

13:53

Shaw's copy of his book

13:55

under my arm, almost like

13:57

it was a protective shield.

14:01

Ah, And I have

14:03

cars. Have

14:05

a joint of the look Really sad to

14:07

have been. Kind. Of. I

14:11

need to spend say the least. But.

14:14

I I was unfair. I was them

14:16

that. At kind of

14:18

political commit. Of

14:21

but nevertheless I used to do with

14:23

the F B I. Led.

14:25

Me to stay at. It was

14:28

free agents a bereft to somebody

14:30

else. Or. What

14:32

were they after? And I actually.

14:35

Was. Trying to say, well. I

14:37

don't. Know that We

14:39

do. These guys did everything

14:42

and out babies scientists, hope

14:44

or at a certain ideological

14:46

permit. But. Ah,

14:48

and. So it

14:50

was. It was

14:52

very protective when I visited by

14:55

the a fear that i i

14:57

answered just a few questions and

14:59

then I said. You.

15:01

Have to tell me what this is all

15:03

about because I didn't really know and I

15:06

said if you know a matter you and

15:08

me and I'll laugh. And

15:10

are they visited me on the street in

15:12

a car. And I I

15:15

opened the car door and others. Thought.

15:18

That was. I think if there

15:20

was a secondary interviewer can't remember

15:22

it clearly. Much

15:25

the same result status as

15:27

I have no idea they

15:30

asked me about I that

15:32

time I figured okay a

15:34

very effortless something else. And

15:37

I answered questions. That

15:40

gives them absolutely no information. Answer

15:42

that question side. Who.

15:45

Are his friends. Did. He have

15:47

any girlfriend did. How often did you

15:49

meet him? Where did you go? Finish

15:52

our job. And I

15:54

said we had dinner at

15:56

local Jos restaurant. Damn series.

16:00

And we went to photograph some night

16:02

brokers at the meat market.

16:07

And otherwise we just met at the studio here,

16:09

you know, and socialized with

16:12

him outside of that. And

16:16

at all times, the fact that

16:19

I made pennies of him was

16:21

of interest to me in retrospect,

16:25

is I

16:27

did admire his physical qualities,

16:31

you know, the extreme

16:33

cheekbone and the bird-like

16:37

kind of look that he had. And

16:40

Osai, enormously admired

16:43

his playing skills.

16:46

But someone

16:49

who apparently had

16:51

only had casual training, it turned out

16:54

when I read Arby's book, I

16:56

guess that's the name of the author,

16:59

my father, my son, that

17:02

he had this incredible

17:05

talent that he

17:08

often performed when

17:10

he was a kid, not a

17:13

professional. And

17:15

I think the interesting thing is

17:18

also his connection, I think, genetically

17:21

or the way the whole gene

17:25

frame works and

17:28

the neural transmissions, that

17:31

people often with mathematical

17:34

skills often have musical

17:36

skills as well. So

17:41

it's a fascinating kind of

17:44

component of who he was.

17:48

Oh, one last thing about

17:52

another little artist. He came to

17:54

my wedding. I

17:57

invited him to come and he's sister.

18:00

automatically avoided

18:02

being photographed. I

18:04

kept looking through all the wedding pictures. I couldn't

18:06

find them except there was one strip where

18:10

he had forgotten to be out

18:12

of rage.

18:17

It was black and white photographs and I

18:19

think it's in the book. On

18:26

the Bernicoff book? Yeah,

18:30

they didn't reproduce the photographs. This

18:33

book came from

18:35

the Waterloo Public Library in

18:38

Waterloo, Iowa. I

18:40

have the clue of

18:44

how it came into my possession.

18:47

But there you have it. And as a

18:49

consequence for the wedding gift,

18:52

he made a little kind

18:55

of box for

18:58

notes and something out of

19:00

a very expensive wood put

19:02

together beautifully with

19:05

little clasps

19:07

that he etched out that

19:10

were handmade little metal

19:12

clasps that hinge. Again, it's a

19:14

testament to his personality.

19:19

He didn't go to shop

19:21

and buy something. He

19:24

made something that was

19:26

very real. Yeah,

19:31

no, that's great because all these little

19:33

anecdotes you're giving me gives more of

19:35

a richer

19:37

portrait of Willie than

19:41

you'd get from a book. These little

19:43

stories you're giving me are

19:46

giving me a much broader picture

19:48

of him, which is great, which

19:50

is exactly what I've been looking

19:52

for. Hi, this is Rhonda

19:54

in Virginia and I support Cold War

19:56

Conversations because I think the work that

19:58

Ian is doing... It's critically

20:01

important. I think it's

20:03

vital to record the firsthand accounts

20:05

of people who lived and experienced

20:08

the Cold War because

20:10

it illustrates history in a way that

20:13

a book never can. So

20:15

thank you so much for the podcast. It's my

20:17

favorite podcast and I look forward to it every

20:19

week. To

20:21

be like Rhonda and help to preserve

20:23

these incredible stories of the Cold War,

20:26

as a monthly or annual supporter, you'll

20:28

be able to listen ad-free, you'll become

20:30

one of our community, get the sought

20:32

after Cold War Conversations drinks, Coaster is

20:35

a thank you, and you'll bask

20:37

in the warm glow of knowing that

20:39

you're helping to preserve Cold War history.

20:42

Just go to coldwarconversations.com/donate

20:44

to find out more.

20:48

I think were the FBI

20:50

interested in his guitar and they were

20:52

asking you about that and the typewriter.

20:57

The typewriter, again,

21:00

I think I borrowed

21:02

it because my then-delimited wife

21:05

was doing a report she

21:07

needed something to work

21:09

on and they never gave it back

21:11

to him actually. That's

21:13

a whole other story. And

21:17

the guitar, I can't

21:20

remember why I had it. I absolutely

21:23

cannot accept that when

21:25

I met Donovan and

21:28

he asked about returning the guitar, I

21:30

said, and Willie

21:33

was in Atlanta at that point, I

21:35

said, tell him it's been

21:37

taken very good care of, it's

21:40

been played. And I

21:42

think, I

21:44

love the idea that it

21:47

was his instrument that was

21:49

so interesting. You said there

21:51

was an interesting story with the typewriter. Ah,

21:55

ah, there we go. Thank you. I

21:58

need help. That's all

22:00

right. I'm scribbling down notes when you say

22:03

something interesting. I'm following them up And

22:07

all of its interesting it's lots of notes

22:12

Okay, the trial was set

22:15

for the summer of 1957 The

22:21

FBI Takes me and

22:23

said do you have any of the material

22:26

that he loaned to you like the type

22:28

of the guitar and everything else? And

22:31

I said yes, you could come collect

22:33

it and they said

22:35

no, it's okay. You hold on to them

22:39

So I said sure I'm gonna be gone

22:42

to three months and You

22:45

won't have access to it in case if something

22:48

important in those things that you need and

22:51

They said with the assurance

22:53

of Official

22:56

them. No, don't worry about it. We're

22:58

fine And then two days later

23:00

I got a call From

23:02

the FBI said we'd like to

23:05

come by and pick up the typewriter

23:07

and the controller So

23:12

that being said I figured okay, I'm

23:15

free and clear, you know, I could be away and

23:18

We could schedule to come

23:20

back sometime during the

23:22

time the trial Was

23:26

still on so we're

23:28

off traveling in Europe and this is Close

23:31

to two and a half months were two weeks

23:33

away from from

23:36

returning home and We

23:39

were robbed by

23:42

our passport money Was

23:44

taken by what was then

23:47

a an ongoing trick

23:49

in Rome? Okay, it's

23:51

57, you know, most of Europe

23:53

is still recovering Guy

23:57

went to the US consulate

24:00

said our passports were

24:02

stolen and we can't go anywhere,

24:04

so could you get

24:06

them reissued? And they said, okay, we

24:08

filled our forms. And

24:11

waited and waited. This is why I was

24:13

getting right almost a week and

24:15

we were supposed to be going home. And

24:19

the city in our

24:21

hotel room was feeling gloomy

24:23

and not wanting to go out. And

24:26

there's a knock on the door. And

24:29

I said, who is it? They said somebody

24:31

from the State Department. So

24:34

I said, oh great, our passports are

24:36

ready, right? They're being delivered. So I

24:38

opened the door, this guy, he

24:41

uses himself, he said, can I come in? He said,

24:43

sure, yeah. I said, so do you have the passports?

24:45

And he said, passports? No,

24:48

I don't know about passports. I

24:51

said, well, what the hell are you here for? He

24:54

said, well, the

24:57

government wants you to come back

25:00

to be a witness at

25:03

the trial of Rudolph

25:06

Wojnarowicz. And I said, no way.

25:09

I said, what do you mean, you're going to be a witness?

25:12

I said, well, it's back here. He said,

25:14

well, we'll take care of the passports, blah,

25:16

blah. I said, well,

25:19

I said, OK, let's cut the visit

25:21

short. They're going to pay for

25:23

us to go back, right? So

25:26

we'll save on the return fair. And

25:28

you probably had enough of the museums

25:31

of Europe, me too. So we'll

25:33

go home. The odd thing was

25:35

the guy said, gee, it's been

25:37

very hard finding you. And

25:40

I said, why do you think it's hard finding me?

25:43

My name is on the

25:45

ledger of the American Express office

25:47

in Rome for

25:49

friends we were expecting to

25:51

meet us with a big star

25:54

I had put next to my name

25:57

so that anybody looking for

26:00

me casually, we'd

26:03

get it to sites and they'd ask me, I've been

26:06

looking for you for two weeks. So

26:10

I said QED. So

26:12

I said, okay, we'll go back. And

26:15

he said, no, you can't, we

26:17

only have authorization for one of you.

26:21

And I said, wait a minute,

26:23

how did you find out where you

26:26

made a look in Rome, I mean all

26:28

over Europe. And he

26:31

said, well, I'm not privileged to tell you that.

26:36

So I said, listen, I know, I moved

26:41

in tell you, so who told you? Anyway,

26:48

it was not disclosed. And

26:50

I said, well, I'll just refuse. And I

26:52

said, well, well, had you been

26:54

here for two weeks, and he was subpoenaed tomorrow.

26:58

So I figured, oh, fuck, all right. I

27:01

go and I said, well, you

27:03

know, it was an evening my newlywed young

27:05

wife here by herself. She

27:08

said, we'll assign somebody

27:10

to look after her. I

27:12

said, oh, great. Just like you looked out

27:15

for where I was, right? And

27:17

so my wife said, yeah, your mother's

27:19

well go, and it's not.

27:23

So I returned to my subsequently

27:25

found out they grilled my

27:28

new father in law who knew where we

27:30

were and threatened

27:33

them with some kind of

27:35

legal action. So I was brought

27:37

back. And

27:40

this is what kind of tale of

27:42

total incompetence, which

27:44

is no surprise in this whole

27:47

instance, in a way. Because

27:50

I said,

27:52

well, what kind of testimony are

27:54

going to be given? And

27:58

he said, the guy who was just a little bit of a you

28:01

said, I don't know. You have to

28:04

ask when you get back to

28:06

the DA's or to the prosecutor's office.

28:10

So I got back

28:12

up and I was scheduled to go on

28:14

the stand the next day and

28:18

I still didn't know what testimony was going

28:20

to be about. I

28:22

said, I don't know what you can ask me. I don't

28:24

know if I can answer honestly

28:27

or productively or

28:30

whatever. And they

28:32

said, we'll let you know. Well,

28:34

they never did. I'm coming in at

28:36

the courthouse and it's time for me

28:38

to go on the stand. And

28:41

what they needed was testimony

28:44

about the typewriter that I

28:46

had borrowed. They

28:48

wanted to confirm that

28:51

that typewriter was

28:53

the one he loaned me and that

28:57

it was identifiable

29:00

by witness. And

29:02

I said, well, I signed papers that, you know,

29:04

you have a record of, you have a

29:08

manufacturer's code on it. He

29:10

said, well, we need live testimony.

29:14

So I said, you can

29:16

ask me to identify the typewriter. Tell

29:18

me what the ID number is. Well, he

29:21

said, all you have to do is testify that

29:24

it's the typewriter. So

29:26

I said, my head, fuck you,

29:30

at the trial. They asked

29:32

me, blah, blah. And they

29:34

said, is this a typewriter that

29:37

you borrowed

29:39

from Colonel Abel? And

29:42

I said, I don't know. It looks like

29:44

a lot of typewriters. It's

29:46

a Remington portable. I have

29:48

no idea. And he said, can

29:52

you identify it? Is it something that

29:54

you know? I said, no, I

29:56

have no idea. It could

29:58

be. It know

30:01

definitively. And

30:06

then that we should. Send

30:09

them a defense attorney. You're going

30:11

to establish. Chemical, the

30:13

credibility of the same. As

30:16

me a couple of questions, one of which

30:18

was. You have. Some

30:21

sense. Of honesty.

30:24

Of of the descendants. And

30:27

I said activists. I remember

30:29

something about it always. Absolutely.

30:33

On Blemished I'm in.

30:35

His word was. Was

30:38

virtual. What about? call it?

30:40

A. Black Up. And.

30:45

Shout hats off to dissenters

30:47

Me. That. Question somebody else

30:49

I can remember. this is

30:51

your excuse. For

30:54

the whole thing is to

30:56

catch. They did it. Just.

31:00

Has to be of the clumsiness. Of

31:03

the fish about. getting

31:05

me back and forth. Secondary:

31:08

refusing to transport. Have

31:11

been not telling me. What? I

31:13

was gonna testify that could ask. It's a

31:15

nice identify. This address is now. So.

31:18

You save money as he said more the anguish

31:20

for back. For

31:24

the final when his side of the

31:26

edges. I became very anxious

31:29

about. Entering the

31:31

court and see. A

31:33

book on that in a witness type. As.

31:37

Or conscious culture of

31:39

fear and slut. Sides

31:42

disease and look at them. When.

31:44

I got on with this and and said to

31:47

you were dead of. Can

31:49

a label of a point I said

31:51

i know where he said he said

31:53

is over a whisper at the with

31:55

this table at and I didn't look

31:57

up. at when i

31:59

I was finished testing them on. They

32:02

said, you're excused. And I got down from

32:05

the stand, and I looked

32:07

over at Abel, and

32:11

he nodded to me. That

32:15

was all just a nod, and

32:18

I nodded back and

32:20

laughed. And

32:23

it was, it

32:26

was something that I still almost choke

32:29

up about, that

32:31

kind of awareness that

32:34

I was there to help him. And

32:38

so I had a friendship, not out of treachery

32:41

to the country. And

32:45

that it was okay. You

32:48

know, whatever I had said was

32:50

okay. So

32:53

that's a long expository for that moment that

32:55

I think, again,

32:58

it's about the

33:01

nature of that relationship. Yeah,

33:06

you painted a great picture of

33:08

the courtroom there as well. You

33:10

know, that's really, really

33:13

useful testimony from you there. I'm

33:15

interested to know, what was your

33:17

father-in-law's reaction to discovering that you

33:20

were friends with a super spy?

33:26

I think that was mostly just like he's

33:28

a shock. He doesn't know what he's doing.

33:31

So he runs into me. It's

33:36

a kind of innocence, yeah. Since

33:39

I was- Who in

33:41

earth is his daughter married? I,

33:46

from the start, they weren't very happy because

33:49

like both parents of

33:53

that generation, maybe

33:56

only because the Jewish parents had a

33:58

happy idea. They had a- very

34:01

careful view about anybody in

34:03

the arts that

34:05

it was precarious. You

34:07

couldn't care for your wife,

34:12

which is very paternalistic because

34:14

my wife turned out to be ex-wife,

34:16

turned out to be a psychologist and

34:18

very independent on her own and

34:21

very capable of caring for herself.

34:23

So it was a

34:25

kind of traditional view of marriage,

34:28

that the husband was

34:30

a caretaker and supporter, economic

34:33

backbone of the family. And

34:36

then, you know, you've got to realize,

34:38

in the 1950s, that's

34:40

70 years ago, we're going

34:43

back to almost a

34:45

kind of primitive time when you

34:47

think about it. You know,

34:49

the way social attitudes

34:52

have improved,

34:55

a change for the better have made lives

34:58

very different. Just a number of women,

35:00

for example, who now

35:02

are more visible in

35:05

the public space, whether

35:07

they're writers or

35:09

reporters or commentators on

35:12

TV, and

35:14

not just selling some commercial product,

35:17

and not just pretty faces. There's a lot

35:19

of important stuff,

35:21

writers, women writers. And when

35:23

painters and artists, you know,

35:26

it's just a

35:29

dramatically improved, can

35:31

I say, world in

35:33

which one half of the

35:36

population has been allowed to

35:38

function. It's very challenging,

35:40

too. It's challenging for them, and

35:42

it's a good thing, too, which,

35:46

I mean, competition in the arts has

35:48

always been useful. At

35:52

the risk of offending you, when

35:54

you ask about Willie and his accent,

35:57

you see, when I hear you speak, I say, I

36:00

could almost never tell you out there. At

36:02

the risk of recording you, I

36:05

would say that this is

36:07

not relevant. Did

36:10

I approximate the local

36:12

action at all? Yeah, sort

36:15

of. Sort of. That's what I mean, sort

36:17

of. Right? Okay. But that's not

36:19

the way he spoke, you see. So

36:22

when you asked me about what he

36:24

sounded like, it wasn't with

36:26

a kind of deaf ear that I

36:28

couldn't discriminate accent or

36:31

quality. Or if you

36:33

spoke about somebody with

36:38

a rather distinguished or

36:42

preliminary absentee, which

36:44

is a class, it

36:47

would be with clicked vowels

36:50

and the consonant. Yeah.

36:55

Whereas he wronged his vowels, didn't he? Yeah.

36:58

Yeah. Because I'm

37:00

from the south of England, so my

37:03

accent will be very different. Well,

37:05

it's much... From the north, yeah.

37:07

Yeah. So my wife's accent is

37:09

completely different because she comes from

37:11

Manchester. So, yeah. And

37:14

my kids have picked up the local accent,

37:16

so they always think that I sound posh.

37:24

So I can't win. I can never win. Hello,

37:29

I'm Craig Donald from Aberdeen, and

37:31

I support Cold War Conversations with

37:33

a monthly donation because it marries

37:35

interesting historical content with fantastic storytelling.

37:38

Ian is a great gift as an interviewer.

37:40

He knows his subject so that the conversations

37:42

are meaningful, but he also allows guests to

37:44

tell their own story. Cold War

37:47

Conversations is part of my weekly routine, and I

37:49

would urge you to make it part of yours.

38:00

to listen ad-free. You'll

38:02

become one of our community, get the

38:04

sort after Cold War Conversations drinks coaster

38:06

as a thank you and

38:08

you'll bask in the warm glow of

38:10

knowing that you're helping to preserve

38:12

Cold War history. Just go

38:14

to coldwarconversations.com/donate to find out

38:17

more or follow the link

38:19

in the episode information. Let's

38:23

talk about your visit to Moscow in 1967. Okay,

38:32

now I

38:34

was talking to going by

38:36

two people, by the author

38:40

Louise who who felt that it

38:42

was important for the

38:44

book and so on, that if

38:47

I was committed to helping

38:49

her in research

38:52

and in writing it that this would

38:54

be an important component. And

38:57

secondarily my own

39:01

curiosity and

39:04

maybe because I

39:06

wanted to make up for something, you

39:08

know, that I deserted

39:11

him in prison. And

39:15

you know I'm reading about the way people

39:17

at the prison thought about him

39:19

and everything else and he

39:21

had this job of publishing reading

39:24

cards and so on. And

39:26

the other thing is through

39:28

the connection he had with Morton

39:31

Sobel who was part of the

39:33

Rosenberg thing. But anyway

39:35

back to Moscow and

39:38

the trip. So

39:41

I went with a great deal of trepidation. First

39:43

of all I didn't know what the hell

39:46

the Soviets were going to be really up to.

39:49

How jealous were they to be the

39:51

same year as the 60th

39:54

anniversary of the

39:57

great revolution? Okay.

40:00

of the Bolshevik takeover. And

40:03

they were preparing a huge celebration.

40:06

And being paranoid themselves, they didn't

40:08

want anybody doing

40:11

anything to ruffle that

40:13

whole experience. So

40:16

there were these two sort of

40:18

innocents coming into looking

40:20

for willing. What

40:24

were they up to? Were they a CIA

40:26

plot? And

40:30

so I carried with me

40:32

all my brochures showing my

40:34

professional status and

40:36

paid them to really stuff

40:38

somebody. And Louise

40:40

had all kinds of stuff, graduation,

40:42

nonsense stuff.

40:46

We started out the publisher, Simon

40:50

Shuster, and they

40:53

apparently made

40:55

some effort to connect with the Novisti

40:58

Soviet Bureau agency,

41:01

news agency. To say

41:03

they were interested in coming into the

41:05

Colonel, could they provide

41:07

access to them? You know,

41:09

they were appreciated as publishing

41:12

outfit. And we were

41:14

told fine that Novisti knew we

41:17

were coming, and they'd be

41:19

happy to assist

41:21

us if it were possible. Defecture.

41:24

I don't remember his name. It's

41:28

Louis. Yes, yes.

41:31

He was defecture. He

41:33

would leak information that the Soviets

41:36

wanted to get to the West. So

41:39

he had a very dubious role. People

41:42

in counterintelligence thought he was a

41:45

dubious source because of that

41:48

and so on. But that

41:50

he would be able to provide the

41:53

information. So the

41:55

day after we landed there, which

41:58

is now, hotel

42:02

which we discovered was supposed to be

42:04

the international kind of

42:06

exchange for spy stories

42:09

and spookeries and contacts and so

42:11

on. So we went to

42:13

the Novestig people the next day and Moscow

42:18

is apparently huge. So

42:21

their maps look very close like oh we just go

42:23

from here to here and this

42:25

is going to be enormous walking and

42:27

walking and where was it? Okay

42:30

that's a good place. I

42:33

spent about two

42:36

weeks trying to learn some Russian

42:39

from a woman who is living

42:42

in the same building I was in that

42:45

would be able to give me some

42:47

feel of the language and

42:49

the only thing I remembered saying is something

42:52

in Russian which is Мепана Рушки, Мепана май пайшки. It's

43:00

translated is I don't know how to speak

43:02

Russian. So

43:05

whenever somebody talked to the Russian

43:07

now he said Мепа Рушки they kept

43:10

talking I think oh he understand how

43:14

to

43:16

speak.

43:19

Anyway it was useless and there was

43:21

only good for reading the

43:23

subway stops on the subway station

43:26

which again I took pictures of it's

43:29

remarkable. Huge archways

43:31

and beautiful interiors that

43:34

were like showcases for communism. Anyway

43:37

we got to the Dovacy

43:39

people and we got this

43:42

incredible run around. I don't

43:44

know what you're talking about we don't have

43:46

the information or maybe so-and-so knows

43:49

he's replaced the former director maybe he

43:51

knows and he came and he shuffles

43:53

through papers he said I don't know

43:55

who you are and I don't know

43:57

why you're here. So

44:00

we figured, oh, that's

44:02

great. This is

44:04

a run around now that they

44:06

really don't want us to have any contact

44:10

with Willie. So OK,

44:13

we thought we'd go to our second

44:15

source. And he

44:17

turned out to be incredibly

44:19

full of bluster and pretentiousness

44:22

and everything else. I

44:24

kept promising, oh, well, I think we

44:26

can do this. Yes,

44:29

now Willie called the label.

44:31

The kind of label is in Moscow. And

44:34

yes, we think it can be arranged and

44:36

so on. And

44:41

he would invite me out to

44:44

the dasha, which is

44:46

their summer home, to

44:48

have this interaction.

44:50

I said, oh, that's neat. We're going

44:52

to find out what the summer homes

44:55

actually look like, because he

44:57

was supposed to be on a

44:59

different level in the

45:02

hierarchy, so clearly. And

45:06

we finally have this concept. Well,

45:09

because of some strange moment

45:13

of letdown, because we were

45:15

never talking to, we

45:17

were at the hotel hall for every night.

45:20

And there was all kinds of conversation back

45:22

and forth who we were, what we're doing

45:24

there. And

45:27

some English businessman became very

45:29

friendly with Louise as she

45:32

started talking about how we were in

45:34

this mission to meet with

45:37

Colonel Abel. And this

45:39

guy had a friend at one

45:42

of the news agencies. It may have

45:44

been with the BBC, I'm not certain.

45:47

And he told him that this couple were

45:50

here to interview the colonel, who were

45:52

writing the book, and so

45:54

on. And then what's

45:56

his face? Got news

45:58

of it. And when I got

46:00

on the phone with him to say whether we're going to

46:03

go to the Darshan out to leave him, he

46:06

exploded. He said, why

46:08

did you tell anybody you're supposed to

46:10

keep a secret and you put

46:12

me in danger and went on and on

46:14

and on? I had no

46:16

idea what had happened. And then

46:19

it came out that this guy had

46:21

broken his little story, which shows

46:23

you how weirdly introverted

46:26

the whole social

46:30

information experience was. You

46:33

know, it was like, in

46:36

fact, there were other news

46:38

agencies in Moscow. And

46:42

I remember going to the toilet to take

46:44

a leak and there was

46:46

another guy next to

46:48

me and he identified himself as

46:52

somebody from the AP

46:54

or something like that. And

46:56

he looked up and he said, I hear you, I

46:58

hear the interview of the colonel. I

47:01

grunted, I said, yeah, everybody knows. So

47:05

the next thing out of his mouth

47:07

was weird. He said,

47:09

is the colonel

47:11

Jewish? And

47:16

I said, how the fuck would I know?

47:19

And he said, well, you

47:22

would have seen him urinating. You could have

47:24

seen him through his circumcise, right? And

47:30

I said to myself, oh, Lordy,

47:32

I thought the news agencies were really

47:35

full of fools, but

47:38

that was an insane encounter. I

47:42

tell you, the world was made

47:45

unreal because of the kind

47:47

of heightened paranoia about intrigue

47:49

and spying. It's

47:51

all the usual contact twists

47:53

that he turned out, ulterior

47:55

motives, things that seemed real

47:57

or not real. And

48:00

in fact, they even sent me the kind of

48:02

code where I would be

48:05

able to send a message back to

48:08

the publisher that if there

48:10

was something dangerous happening, I would

48:13

say I'm running out of yellow

48:15

paint. That

48:18

would be cold, you see, because there was

48:20

danger. I

48:22

think, absurd. I

48:25

understand you left a letter for ML.

48:28

Yes. What

48:31

did that say? Essentially,

48:34

I said what

48:36

I said before, that I apologize

48:40

for not writing to him, and

48:43

I said something to the effect that maybe

48:45

this attempt

48:48

to meet you is to

48:50

make up for that, to somehow

48:52

remedy what seems

48:55

like a failure on

48:57

my part. And I

48:59

just said to the extent that

49:01

we've been frustrated in

49:03

trying to see you. I

49:05

remember writing something about I thought

49:07

we could take a trip to

49:10

the Hermitage and talk about art.

49:15

And I ended with maybe another

49:18

time when we

49:20

can meet just this rent. I

49:23

said I don't even know if you're going to get

49:26

this letter, but in

49:28

the hopes that you do,

49:31

I'm writing because of that. And

49:35

it was mailed off to the novice. I guess you

49:37

remember who it was mailed to. And

49:44

that was it. That was

49:46

the end of it. We came

49:48

back, and I think after

49:50

that I did some runaround

49:53

to King, New Hampshire, to try to

49:55

find what happened to

49:57

Hay Haynan. And

49:59

I remember that. was going to sort

50:02

of hesitantly get a byline with the

50:04

book, but the

50:06

publisher decided to be better up

50:08

for the single author. And

50:11

I agreed. I didn't feel

50:13

terribly troubled by that. I

50:17

felt whatever the book would accomplish

50:21

in a way of correcting the

50:23

record, and I think

50:25

it did. I think it was, in

50:28

retrospect, it was a lot

50:30

better than I had thought

50:32

originally. And

50:34

I think she did a good job, a first-rate

50:37

job. I don't know where she got some

50:40

of the dialogue from some of the

50:43

conversations between the

50:46

lawyers or between

50:50

Willie and his

50:52

lawyers, but I

50:55

assumed the publisher fact-checked

50:58

it and her sources.

51:01

So that's where it went. That was the end,

51:03

I thought. You know?

51:06

You mentioned the box Willie made

51:09

as a wedding present, I think, for you. Yeah,

51:12

do you want to see it? I haven't. I'd

51:15

love to see it. I was going to ask if

51:17

you still got it, so I'd love to see it.

51:21

I don't

51:33

know if you can see the etch.

51:38

Yeah. Okay.

51:41

Now what happened is, I think

51:44

through, and all these hinges

51:47

came apart because the little nails

51:50

that were in there, they're

51:53

50 years old, but the

51:57

hinges Are also—where's

51:59

your camera? Hit. See

52:03

their little on edge? And.

52:06

Useless well one and on

52:08

the front. Oh

52:10

so. Again, It's

52:13

it's slightly corroded, But

52:16

it has. A little

52:18

emblem with. Flowers,

52:21

it's due to it.

52:25

Okay while and then the

52:27

inside it's you can see

52:30

that is a little. Clock.

52:33

Which has. To.

52:39

Home and Earth. From

52:42

em up. And

52:44

some little. And. As

52:47

you see, the the box itself

52:49

is beautifully made. Yeah.

52:52

And. And whatever

52:54

The joining star so on a sea

52:56

of the fact that the hinges came

52:59

out i think. Happened.

53:07

Over time. With

53:11

the middle class, he has it that

53:13

flows isn't. That

53:16

a class and from India

53:18

as. Well. If you'd

53:20

like to see video of the

53:22

box that will he made said

53:25

birds then go to Cold War

53:27

conversations.com/donate and select the monthly or

53:29

annual support option. In addition to

53:32

extra content like this, you'll also

53:34

get at free episodes and more.

53:38

Ah, Thought that's incredible saying

53:40

you know that that guess

53:42

that he made for you.

53:46

Or I wouldn't give it up. It's it's

53:48

a mark of whom he was, how much

53:50

care. It out with that's

53:53

been. spending a

53:55

lot of money on something

53:57

some expenses are personal he

53:59

says part of himself to

54:01

that. I

54:04

don't buy green cards. I make

54:06

them because I

54:08

know it's important to

54:11

all of them as

54:13

a Senate because time and

54:15

energy and sometimes they're really

54:17

funny you know and they

54:19

all appreciate it in

54:21

a way that I

54:23

am that it's like that. So

54:29

that's that's the

54:32

Willy Fisher story. But

54:35

I'm really appreciative of your time.

54:37

You've been so generous with

54:39

me and it's

54:42

incredible speaking to somebody who knew

54:44

Willy and you

54:46

know you're showing me those pictures

54:49

of those paintings yesterday and to

54:52

see the box today I wasn't

54:54

expecting that. That was a really

54:56

real nice surprise to see something

54:59

that was made by you

55:02

know the man himself and that he gave

55:04

to you you know his friend

55:07

as a token of your friendship and

55:09

to you know celebrate that first marriage.

55:13

Well you know it's it's what's

55:16

interesting is that little metal

55:19

plate inside is

55:21

so cherished and

55:24

it reminds me of

55:26

that nod from

55:29

him in the in

55:31

the court in a

55:33

way it's to

55:36

Helen and Bert from

55:39

Emma and he it's

55:42

not it's like the condensation

55:45

of everything that that you

55:47

know is a felt expression

55:51

something something

55:54

real in a world of

55:57

unreality sincerely this whole story.

56:00

of the Andrea clearly. Don't

56:03

miss the XOed Extras such as

56:05

videos, photos, and other content. Just

56:08

look for the link in the

56:10

podcast information. The podcast

56:12

wouldn't exist without the generous support of

56:14

our financial supporters and I'd like to

56:17

thank one and all of them for

56:19

keeping the podcast on the road. The

56:22

Cold War conversation continues in

56:24

our Facebook discussion group. Just

56:26

search for Cold War Conversations

56:28

in Facebook. Thanks

56:31

very much for listening and see you next

56:33

week. Not

57:08

enjoying the ads? Well you

57:10

can avoid them by going

57:12

to coldwacombosations.com/donate. By becoming a

57:14

monthly or annual supporter you'll

57:17

enjoy ad-free listening, become a part

57:19

of our community, receive the

57:21

sort after Cold War Conversations drinks,

57:24

coasters, and bask in the warm

57:26

glow of knowing that you're helping

57:28

to preserve Cold War history. Just

57:31

go to coldwacombosations.com/donate for

57:33

more information.