0:02

I'm your host reena friedman watts and this

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is the better call daddy show hey this is big daddy wayne

0:08

friedman that's my grandpa grandpa you

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ready for more daddy drama my dad is my number one hero and number one fan and

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i'm a pretty cool dude all right season four baby here we go more stories you're

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not going to believe and maybe you will after you listen five stars five and a a half stars,

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two thumbs up. You are a pretty cool dude. I love you, Mommy. Don't stand on the table and damn the public.

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You'll get some words of wisdom to live by. Here we go again. Better call Daddy.

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You know what your problem is? You like me. Yeah, I do.

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Each week, I interview a guest, share the stories with my dad,

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and then he weighs in at the end of every episode with his wisdom and wit. Hey, Grandpa.

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Everyone from influential players to inspirational fathers and,

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of course, us controversial people. Grandpa, my mom is calling.

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Creating that legacy one call at a time and welcome to the Better Call Daddy

1:03

Show. Stay tuned. Where's the music?

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Music.

1:37

I'm excited for today's guest. Tom Vaughn pivoted his life around his father's

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passing. It reinvigorated his purpose.

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He's a screenwriter and he teaches others how to do it. Tom,

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welcome to the Better Call Daddy show. Good morning.

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Good morning. I am so excited to have this conversation with you.

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I wanted to let the audience know that I have attended two of your parties and

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that we have a shared friend, Nick Gray, who wrote The Two-Hour Cocktail Party.

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And And I feel like you execute the two-hour cocktail party right to spec.

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Oh, thank you. Well, I have to. Yes.

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It's the only reason I do it. I've never hosted parties before. I have social anxiety.

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So the idea of being exposed, I'm very sensitive to embarrassment.

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I'm very sensitive to intimacy, like public intimacy.

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So I'm too afraid to host parties because I'm afraid people won't show up.

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And I feel rejected if they text me and go, hey, I'm not going to be there. I take it personally.

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And I know intellectually it's silly and not to worry about it.

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But what Nick's book did for me was it gave it a process. And I love processes.

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I love systems. I love step-by-step ways to do things. So like having a process

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through the party takes so much stress off me to like, oh, I get to focus on

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this process and everything takes care of itself.

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Whereas my natural tendency is to just worry about everything taking care of itself.

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But if I have a process, I can focus on the process and let it fall away.

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And then everything seems to work out fine. Everyone has a good time and new

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friends are made. It's always delightful. And I'm going to keep doing them as long as people keep showing up. That's wonderful.

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Yeah. What was your first one like? I don't think I attended the first one. No.

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Well, the first one was all screenwriters. So that made it very safe for me

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because I have enough of a reputation as a screenwriter that I know people will

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show up. I know that was a safe spot.

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So I will just bring in screenwriters who I know will enjoy meeting other screenwriters.

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I know I can pull in those favors. People would be interested to spend those two hours with me.

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So it was a very safe experiment. And then Nick reached out to me afterwards

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and said, hey, this is great.

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Started asking me some questions. His big thing was how many people showed up.

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That agreed to be there. Like that's apparently a big number for him. Okay.

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Which is, okay, 18 people said they'd come. How many actually showed up?

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Because of, I was so selective about who I invited.

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We had a very high turnout. I think we had one person who didn't make it.

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And apparently with Nick, that's like, that's a big deal. Like that's really, really good.

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He said he was going to be in town. I said, why don't we throw a party?

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And then, you know, he co-hosted the next one.

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So. Okay. That's the one I went to. And that's the one you met.

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Is like he had sent me his book and said he wanted to be on the podcast and

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I was getting ready to move to Houston.

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And so before, yeah, before I moved, it just didn't happen because like moving

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cross country, you know, gets kind of crazy.

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But I started following him on social and I read the book and I loved the book.

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And then I saw on his social media status that he was throwing one in Houston.

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So I messaged him that day. I was like, I would love to meet you. I would love to actually attend one and see this unfold.

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And then that's how we connected, which was so great. And now I've gotten to go to two of them.

5:07

And I am just so impressed by how you pull them off.

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Oh, thank you. Well, it's all it's all Nick, you know, like it's all that.

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And it's also the people you invite. Like that's that's a big thing of inviting interesting, fun,

5:20

positive people. That makes a huge difference.

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So, you know, I know you got to meet Lana. You got to meet some some other people. I've got Kate hooked up with Lana as well.

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Like I get so much joy out of finding out, oh, yeah, we connected afterwards

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and we did this and I did their short film. And it's so delightful.

5:41

It's so rewarding. That's incredible. Yeah. I also am really interested in your Hollywood chapter before we get to the daddy story. Okay.

5:51

I know that you were out there, You were smoking two packs of cigarettes a day.

5:56

You got to work with some A-list celebrities and then you made your way back out to Houston.

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So can you give me a little of that?

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Well, I've gone back and forth. The last 27 years, I've split my time between Houston and L.A.

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So I will live in stretches here and then I will live in stretches there.

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And it's usually determined by work.

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The last time I lived in Houston for any stretch, work had dried up and I got very, very nervous.

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And I went back there to, you know, basically just to start working again.

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And this time, basically I hit like a peak with like how much I'm working,

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how well I'm doing, you know, with employment, with writing and things like that.

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And then I go, oh, I can afford to move back to Texas now. And so I'll move

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back to Texas and then eventually things slow down.

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Eventually I get distracted with this and then and then I go,

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oh, God, I got to go back now. And so then then I go and I move back. And after the pandemic.

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Everyone is so much more comfortable with Zoom calls and meetings online and

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video that I don't anticipate a need to having to move back any anytime soon.

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So, you know, me and my family are pretty much settled here now.

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But, you know, it's been a fun career.

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It's strange to think that I'm kind of, you know, at the age where,

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you know, things are kind of winding down career wise.

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You know, for retirement, there's more years behind me than there are years ahead.

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But that's a little odd. But there's still, you know, I've still got 15,

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20 years left of work. Yeah, I like teaching. I like writing.

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So I'm very, very fortunate. I'm very fortunate. Everything I do during the

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day is in some form something that I love to do.

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I'm very, very blessed in that regard. I teach. I like teaching.

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I'm building a small teaching company online where I teach screenwriting,

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and that's been really fun to build that. I write movies.

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I miss making movies because I'm in features rather than television.

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Whereas television, you're in production much more consistently,

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whereas features, I'm in production once every two years.

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And I miss that. And that's probably the next phase I want to get into is getting

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into production more, producing more, directing more.

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So I am moving from one production to another. I'm working with a director now.

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He just had a movie released. He has a window before his next contractually obligated film.

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And so we're trying to make a movie within that window.

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Which to me is like such, I think he's used to it now, but the luxury of I'm

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going to make this movie and when I get done with this, I'm going to make this other movie.

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Oh, I've got a window to make another movie.

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So I'm just going to decide to make this movie.

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Like that's such a strange luxury to have because it's what we all love to do.

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Like that's what we love to do. do. So I think you kind of get a little numb

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to it because it becomes the thing that you do.

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And you tend to forget how fortunate you are, how much we love our job,

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how much we enjoy doing this. And I would like to be in that position a little more where I'm a little more

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numb to it. Of course, I have another production. That's what I do. I have another production, another movie made,

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and so on and so on. What a delightful obliviousness to have. That's funny.

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Speaking of what a delightful obliviousness, talk to me about hearing no in

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Hollywood and having to be numb to that.

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Yeah, I mean, it's really, it's 99.9% of what you hear.

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It is, I have a phrase for my students of, you know, like this business is really

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about how many no's you have in you. And can you hear this many no's and keep going?

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Because it's all it's all almost all no's. And even if you get the big yeses

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and then you've got you've got rotten tomatoes telling you how terrible you

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are, you know, like it's it is just a lot. It is a much like baseball.

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It is a game of failure. It is mostly game of failure.

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But the successes are such highs and so wonderful.

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And the act of creation, you know, like that, that makes up for it.

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Because even like you write a script, you don't know if that script's going to get made.

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You don't know if that screenplay, whether you'll get paid for it.

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I mean, obviously, sometimes you work on assignments. So that's obviously a little different. But I like working on spec.

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You don't know where that script's going to go. You don't know if anyone's ever

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going to see it. You don't know how many people are going to read it. You don't know if it's going to get made.

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You don't know how widely distributed it's going to be. You don't,

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you know, like there's so many questions. So the act of creation itself has to have its own joy.

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It has to. Otherwise, it's just too rough. It's just too tough.

10:22

Let's talk to my wife about this not too long ago.

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I personally, I don't care where the creation is.

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I just enjoy it. If I'm writing, great. If I'm improvising, that has my full attention.

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If I'm doing a local play that hardly anyone's going to see,

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that has my full attention. attention. If we're doing a TV movie, I don't care. It has my full attention.

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If we're doing a bigger budget feature film, I don't care. It has my own, you know.

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So like the things that I tend to stress out about are, you know,

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just like, do I have enough money to get through a certain amount of time considering

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how strange my employment and business is?

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If that's at a comfort level zone where I'm okay, I really don't care where I'm creating.

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I really don't. I love love improvising for 12 people in an audience,

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sometimes smaller, you know, because it's 10 o'clock at night in some strip mall theater in LA.

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That's fun to me. I couldn't be happier, even though, you know,

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you're not getting paid at all. You're just there for the fun of it.

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That has my full attention. And so I'm happy and delighted. I miss acting. I haven't acted in 16,

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17 years. I'd like to do that again. And I'll enjoy that.

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So, you know, I'm very fortunate fortunate that way. I know a lot of people,

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the people I work with, the stress and the anxiety because they've got so much

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on their shoulders, so many millions of dollars in the production.

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The studio is on your case. The movie has to open big.

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They've got three pictures committed to it. The amount of anxiety and stress

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is immense and I don't envy them.

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I don't envy them. That's a tough way to do something you love.

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Do you think money messes up art? Oh, certainly it does. Yeah, absolutely.

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But it's necessity because it is both corrupting, but you want to make a $15, $20 million movie.

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That's just part of the game. People want to know how they're going to get their money back.

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You know, Scorsese can do a $70, $80 million picture that everyone's like,

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well, we don't expect to get our money back. We're there for prestige.

12:20

You know, like that, which I understand. That in itself is its own business decision.

12:24

Apple making Killers of the Flower Moon of just, we know we're going to lose

12:29

money off of this, but the prestige and attention that our Apple TV will get

12:35

because of it is worth it.

12:38

That's still a financial decision they make because they believe in the long

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run that money will come back to them indirectly. directly.

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Whereas Scorsese is, I just have the money to make the movie I want to make.

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He's just delighted by it. He wants people to see it. So I know that I've had

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to make decisions of doing projects that maybe weren't my favorite because I needed the money.

13:01

You got to pay the rent. You got to pay the mortgage.

13:04

As an old producer friend called it, you got to feed the beast.

13:07

Sometimes you want to tell stories and sometimes you got to create content.

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There's There's a difference. And you tend to know the difference.

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You know which one you're doing and which one you aren't. But making movies is expensive.

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People getting paid, crews, they need to put food on the table too.

13:25

So if you feel like your movie is not particularly commercial and you're not

13:29

quite sure of its commercial prospects, then you got to keep the budget down.

13:34

That's just the way to do it. it. So it all depends on who you're working with.

13:38

It all depends on the project. But for the most part, I have found you just simply have to roll with where the business is going.

13:46

That's all like there. Like we don't have DVD sales anymore.

13:49

That changes everything. Now we're into streaming. That changes everything.

13:52

And you just hope you hope you get the opportunities for yourself to make the

13:57

stories you tell the stories you want to tell. What has it been like for you to get a seat at the table, like to be able to

14:03

have some of those those conversations with the people that can make that happen for you?

14:07

I wouldn't even call it a seat at the table. My experience, and this is,

14:12

you know, not even like not the best day to ask me because I just,

14:16

I just found another director.

14:19

Decided to rewrite a script of mine. Totally. And so like, I'm reeling from that.

14:24

So it's, it is the third or fourth project that I've been on where the director

14:30

comes on board and we're all excited and no, I don't want to change the script. The script is great.

14:35

And then they go off and they change, they rewrite the script and not for the

14:40

better, you know, like not for the better. It's such a bizarre experience to go through of, wait, why did you make these

14:47

changes? Why do you think these this is better?

14:50

Why do you I don't always understand it. In fact, I never understand it.

14:54

I've only had a couple a couple directors that I've worked with,

14:58

which were so delightful, which were just pushing, pushing the script to be

15:02

better, just pushing the script to be better. And they they didn't pretend they were writers.

15:06

They just push this scene of like, you can do this scene can be better.

15:10

This scene can be more compelling. This this can be more interesting. And to push you and push you and they make

15:16

you better, even though sometimes in the moment you're like,

15:19

oh, my God, just it's fine.

15:21

But then it's better. And you go, you were right. You were right.

15:24

You know, like you were right. But then you get the directors who come in and just rewrite wholesale on their

15:30

own just to kind of, I guess, make it their own or something like I don't quite understand it.

15:36

So having read the script last night and going through that experience.

15:40

I'm probably a little raw about it right now of, well, this is just more indication

15:46

I need to start producing more. I need to start directing again. I need to start pushing these things forward.

15:53

People are, you know, respond to the material, but maybe they're not quite sure

15:57

why they respond to the material. And so they kind of want to change it.

16:01

It's confusing when you don't know why, you know, someone comes in and rewrites

16:05

the scene better and you're like, yeah, that's better.

16:07

That is the intention of the scene, but better execute it.

16:11

Great. Like that's, and I'm going to get writing credit for that.

16:14

And I'm going to look like I wrote that. Great. I'm all right with that. I'll look smarter than I am.

16:18

It's like an actor. It's like working with an actor. Like an actor is almost

16:21

always going to make you look better than you are.

16:24

You know, like they're like a good actor will always make you look like a better

16:27

writer than you are. And so you want that same thing from a director of make

16:33

me look like a better writer than I am. And then they end up doing the opposite and they make you look like you were the one we're confused.

16:40

But like the scene you wrote was not confused. The scene you wrote was its intentions were very, very clear.

16:45

And then at some point the execution got lost. So I don't feel like I have a

16:49

seat at the table by any stretch. I feel like I am still on the outside looking in.

16:55

And most people are just because you're making a living at it does not mean

16:58

you have a seat at the table. You are paid off to not sit at the table.

17:04

They give you money for the script and then they do whatever they want with the script.

17:09

So it can be pretty frustrating. Yeah. And also like in the beginning,

17:13

did you want such a role in your writing coming to life or were you more happy

17:19

with I'll write it and you bring it to life? It's a good question because I

17:22

started out as a playwright. So I was used to, oh, this is how I wrote it and this is how we do it.

17:29

A playwright owns the material. A playwright always owns the material.

17:33

The theater, that cast, they lease the material from you. So you have final say on everything.

17:39

Whereas with film, it's the exact opposite. They buy it from you and you have no say whatsoever. whatsoever.

17:45

Creatively, that's very frustrating, but I can certainly understand why a production

17:50

company would want that. It's their money. They have to protect their funds.

17:55

And I've seen a lot of films go down because they let a director go nuts.

17:59

They let a director lead them down a path and they got financially killed when

18:04

they really needed to fire that director.

18:07

That's what they should have done was at that first impulse that this director

18:11

did not care about what they cared about.

18:14

You got to fire the guy and they didn't. I understand why the mechanism is there.

18:20

And I happen to agree with that mechanism.

18:22

Those who take the risk need to protect that investment.

18:26

I totally get that. What happens is, is when they don't know how to protect the investment.

18:31

That's the issue of, I understand you want to protect the investment,

18:36

but do you know how to protect the investment?

18:38

And did you bring anyone in that knows how to protect the investment?

18:41

Do you have an advisor who knows how to protect the investment?

18:44

You have the power to protect the investment, but do you know how?

18:47

So I am a commercial writer. I enjoy genre. I enjoy joy-pleasing audiences.

18:53

That to me is the ultimate measuring stick of is this project successful?

18:59

Do the audiences feel emotionally satisfied by it?

19:03

It is always strange to me to cut that person out and bring in someone who's

19:09

only concerned about prestige or what they think is making themselves look good.

19:16

Because I had one movie that just flopped recently really bad.

19:19

The subtext of the entire movie was the director, are you impressed with me?

19:24

Are you impressed with me? That was the subtext.

19:27

I was just trying to impress you with the shots and with the details.

19:33

And of course, there was no story there and it flopped terribly.

19:36

And I've worked with, let's see, one, two, three, four.

19:40

I worked with four directors right after disappointments at the box office.

19:45

Now there is nothing worse than a director that's lost their confidence.

19:50

They are so insecure. They cannot make decisions.

19:53

And then you get a director who knows what they're doing, like knows their story

19:58

and they make you look like they make you look brilliant. So it's such a collaborative

20:02

medium of everybody making everybody else look great.

20:06

I might be one of the reasons why I love improv so much is improv is all about

20:11

making each other look great. Great. It is all about it is easier said than done to make everyone else look

20:19

great because it's always very tempting to be the hilarious one.

20:22

It's always tempting to be the funny one. It is always tempting to be, OK, let me be the star.

20:27

But to collaborate and grow and yes,

20:31

and and create something together with the goal of the scene and the experience

20:36

is what's important rather than the accolades yourself is it's just such a joy

20:41

to do it. I love the improv community as well.

20:43

Me and my husband did that for a couple of years just for date night,

20:47

just for fun. Really? Yeah. It's funny because I joke and I'm only semi-joking, but the worst people in

20:55

Hollywood are stand-up comics. The worst.

20:58

They are consistently the worst. And I find the best people in Hollywood are

21:03

improvisers. That's interesting. Yeah. Why? But like, you know, traditionally and obviously you're generalizing,

21:09

you know, I've got some good friends that are stand up comics that are wonderful human beings.

21:13

But for the most part, the stand up, what what motivates someone to stand up

21:18

and be the center of attention and be funny and get that feedback desperately

21:24

need laughs is a very particular kind of personality.

21:28

And even if you grow out of that career wise, like maybe you become Seinfeld

21:35

and you have some success. It doesn't change the fact that there was a certain part of your personality

21:40

that got into that business that needed that at the beginning.

21:44

And so stand up comics tend to be much more competitive with each other,

21:48

much more self-absorbed.

21:51

But again, you're generalizing. I know plenty of stand up comics that I would trust with my life that are just

21:57

wonderful human beings. But I also don't know any stand-up comic that would disagree with me.

22:02

I can see that. Yeah, they would pretty much all say, oh, yeah,

22:05

we're like, they're a terrible community. What's the writing community like? It depends if we're on strike or not.

22:10

That makes a huge difference. Like when we're on strike, we're a brotherhood and sisterhood,

22:16

you know, holding hands, kumbaya. And then as soon as the strike is over, it's like, they got paid for what?

22:21

They bought that piece of shit? Yeah, totally. Jesus.

22:25

So being a feature writer, I have never really developed that sense of community.

22:30

That a lot of my TV writer friends have.

22:33

TV writers are obviously in writer's rooms and they're spending every day with

22:36

each other and they're having lunch together. And much like improvisers, if in a good, healthy writer's room,

22:43

they're building on each other, making each other better.

22:45

But obviously you get a really bad showrunner then it's a real nasty, toxic environment.

22:50

And that unfortunately sounds like it's more common than I realized just from talking with friends.

22:54

But I am at a spot in my career as I've become a little more comfortable in

23:00

my own skin that I have been enjoying other writers a lot more.

23:05

I've been enjoying talking to them and my insecurity can really get in the way as well.

23:11

I probably in a different life would have veered towards standup comedy because

23:17

I'm a big old drunk, was not a nice drunk, was not a nice person.

23:23

There was definitely a path for me where my behavior was going to get worse and worse and worse.

23:30

And I thank God I got sober because I was not going to have a happy life going

23:34

the direction I was going. So you don't turn that around overnight.

23:39

That takes time. That's steering a cruise ship.

23:43

You're not turning that on a dime. That takes years.

23:47

I feel like I'm at a part in my life right now that I can And be genuinely happy

23:52

for other people when they succeed and want them to succeed and have students

23:57

of mine succeed and make more money than me.

24:00

Like I will joke about that with my wife of like, that's a student,

24:03

like they're making more money than me. And that's one of my students.

24:06

Yeah, talk about that. I know Jeremy Ward was there for you through a time where

24:11

you were able to call him and he was a student of yours.

24:13

Do you want to talk about that? That special relationship? The relationship

24:16

I've developed with students over time has been very, very unique and special

24:21

and very, very gratifying. And I forgot and I told you about that, that when my dad went into hospice,

24:26

I called Jeremy, who was a student of mine, because he was in the hospice business.

24:31

And he'd become a friend over the years. He's a good friend. And I called him to ask, what the hell do I do?

24:38

What is going on? And what's my next step?

24:40

How do I do this? And he had been through it so many times with other people.

24:45

So he just went through it, just kept me calm and.

24:48

Told me what to focus on and was a real, real lifesaver during that time.

24:52

Can you talk to me about the quality of life and how, like what happened during that time?

24:57

Yeah, I was in New York for a television festival because I had a show up there.

25:02

I had a show up there and we were having screenings of this show, trying to set it up.

25:06

And then I got a phone call from my mom and saying, hey, dad was sick.

25:09

It might be serious. We're going to try to figure out what's going on.

25:13

And it was during the World Series. It was 2017.

25:16

And the last time I saw my dad where he was my dad was during a Astros playoff game.

25:24

And it was their first time in the World Series that year.

25:27

And so I've always kind of linked Astros playoffs with my dad at this point.

25:33

And then the next morning, if I remember correctly, the next morning,

25:37

it was the phone call of like, he's got cancer. It's bad.

25:41

It's pancreatic cancer. And he's got maybe six months.

25:44

So I told Kevin, my partner, producing partner on the TV show,

25:49

and I grabbed a flight that night to fly down to Houston.

25:54

Now I'm living in LA at the time. Someone's watching my cats and I've got to

25:57

make those arrangements of like, and once you tell people your dad is sick and

26:01

dad's in the hospital and your dad is dying, they rally around you.

26:05

They're like, yep, whatever you need, you know, no problem. We'll do this. We'll do this.

26:09

I was teaching a class in LA at the time and you know, like they were great.

26:13

Everything was, was great. So I flew down that Wednesday and I got there late.

26:19

I got in Houston late and I didn't see my dad. I just stayed with my mom that night.

26:24

And then Thursday morning, I went to see him and he was pretty drugged up when I got there.

26:31

But as soon as I saw him, as soon as I saw him, I was like, he's not going,

26:36

he's not lasting in six months. There's no way. He's going this weekend.

26:39

I just knew. I just knew there was no way he was on the brink of death.

26:45

You could just tell. So I called my brother Lance.

26:48

And Lance is used to the drama of the family and is very sensitive to everything.

26:54

And so I was like, Lance, you got to get down here. And he doesn't like flying. He's afraid.

26:59

He's got even more more neuroses than me.

27:03

And he's like, I was just told that it's six months. And now you're telling me, get down here now.

27:10

Really? Are you sure? Because this sounds a little dramatic.

27:14

And we're like, I've seen him. He's not going to last. You got to get down here now.

27:19

You got to get down here now. Apparently something happened that night where

27:23

he just took this terrible turn that night.

27:27

My feeling is my dad's biggest fear was being in hospice, being an invalid,

27:32

being in that kind of helpless, undignified state.

27:36

That was his biggest fear. And he talked about it all the time of like,

27:39

that's what I don't want. He would joke about take me out back and shoot me.

27:43

That's how he wanted to go. So my personal belief is his body just said, no, he just shut down.

27:49

He just said the hell with it. And he just decided I'm checking out much earlier than six months.

27:55

So that day he came home that night and he had pancreatic cancer,

28:01

which had spread to several other organs.

28:04

At some point, the doctors came to us and said, we don't think he's going to

28:08

last six months, which my response was no shit. it. Just look at him. Just look at him.

28:14

So it then switched to two or three weeks, which still seemed like a long time to me.

28:20

I don't think anyone's going to stay in that state for that long.

28:24

We brought him home and it was just me and my mom that night.

28:28

The nurse didn't show up. The painkillers weren't there.

28:32

And his painkillers wore off around 1 a.m. that night with my mom there, just me and my mom.

28:40

And this was a huge moment for us.

28:43

One, it was a huge moment for my mom and I of just the way, like having this experience together.

28:48

We talk about it a lot of like, we were the only ones who saw that.

28:52

We were the only ones who saw this. But what happened was, is my dad's painkillers ran out.

28:56

And so he started to feel all of the pain of all of these organs failing and

29:02

was in excruciating pain.

29:06

I had never seen his face like this. I don't think I've ever seen anyone's face

29:09

like this. I imagine this is what war looks like if someone is just mangled.

29:14

And it was an excruciating pain. At some point, the painkillers got there.

29:19

We were calling to have the hospice. We don't care what time it is. Get it here. Get it here.

29:26

And at some point, the painkillers showed up. And we were trying to give the

29:30

painkillers to my dad. And he said, Jeannie, no, just let my wife's name,

29:37

Jeannie, Jeannie, no, just let me die.

29:39

He said that out loud to us. We had to explain like, this is not trying to keep you alive.

29:44

This is just for the pain. Like this is just for the pain.

29:48

And so that's what ended up. He took it then. Like he finally,

29:51

he agreed to take it for the pain. And then a few minutes later, and of course your memory is all kind of mixed

29:58

up as far as the timeline goes. But not too long after that,

30:02

he said to me, just let me go. Let me go. Oh, my God.

30:05

And I said, you know, Dad, like, fine. When you know that.

30:09

So can you hold on until tomorrow when everyone gets here, when Lance gets here?

30:14

And can you hold on till that? And he and he said, yeah, I can hold on.

30:18

I can hold on. So we had like somewhat of an agreement.

30:22

That he was going to hold on until everybody got there. And so the next day,

30:26

everyone started to arrive. I have three older brothers, two brothers were there, but I have a niece that my parents raised.

30:33

And I have my brother Lance up in Philadelphia and they're both in Philly.

30:37

So they both were able to fly down that day.

30:41

And Lance got there about 1230 AM Saturday morning. So basically late Friday night, basically.

30:48

And we just kept giving my dad the painkillers through most of the day to kind

30:52

of get by and people visiting and people being there.

30:55

And his nieces came in and his brother was able to fly in and his sister was able to fly in.

31:01

And so we had a house full of people that loved him and being there.

31:06

So I am the executor of the will and I'm sober.

31:11

So not everyone in my house handles this. And so I was always very,

31:16

very grateful because somehow in some form, I ended up kind of responsible for

31:22

everything going smoothly. And I was thankful for that because it keeps me busy.

31:26

Like I said, I like processes. I like something to focus on.

31:30

So I don't have to deal with any of this stuff. I need to deal with like, what do we have to do?

31:35

Is there food for everybody? Who's here? Who needs to get picked up at the airport?

31:39

So I am able to focus on that, which I was grateful for.

31:45

My dad never really came to any kind of real consciousness after that.

31:50

He would be kind of aware, but was never talking to anyone again.

31:55

He was just on painkillers. My cousin Marnie is a nurse, and she's an intensive

32:01

care nurse. So when she got there, her dad, my uncle Tom, who I'm named after,

32:08

her dad and my dad were very close.

32:10

They're all close, but they were particularly close.

32:13

And so Marnie and Nikki, my cousins, were very close to my dad and loved him very much.

32:18

And so she came down and that was a godsend because the hospice wasn't very useful at all.

32:23

But we had an intensive care nurse and she took

32:26

care of everything and was just a real godsend. And I've grown quite close with

32:31

her since as well because of this experience.

32:33

But my dad was out through most of the day and not very aware of anything, mostly asleep.

32:40

And so around like 12, 20 that night, he kind of wakes up.

32:48

He just kind of like wakes up and we're like, are you okay? Because we're like, we're afraid.

32:53

Like, did your your painkiller run out? We're like, why are you up?

32:57

And then two minutes later, my brother Lance passes the window because he had just got there.

33:02

And so there's a lot of these little moments throughout the whole thing where

33:06

suddenly Lance got there and he didn't see it, didn't see it, but woke up.

33:12

And then two minutes later, Lance is coming through the door going,

33:16

hey dad, hey dad, and coming in and seeing him.

33:19

And those kinds of moments you don't forget. And then so when Lance got there,

33:24

he was the last one to arrive that needed to be there, was able to spend some

33:28

time with my dad. And of course, he's not that aware.

33:31

He can just smile and recognize him. And he said Lance.

33:35

And I think that was huge for Lance to kind of hear his name at the one last

33:40

time. And from that point on, I had switched over to, okay, everyone's here.

33:48

Everyone's had a moment. He's been able to see everyone.

33:51

Now I'm switching gears to how do we let him gracefully go?

33:58

Like, how does he move on? How does he want to do that?

34:01

That, you know, just kind of changing the energy of the place,

34:04

you know, like when you, like there's no crying in the room with dad,

34:08

like don't, there's no crying, go in there, spend time with him,

34:11

talk to him, let him hear your voice, but no sadness, no crying,

34:15

nothing like that. Just go in there. And we tried different things. We had his favorite music on as best we can.

34:21

And I still, one of my regrets to it was like,

34:24

We could have done better with music. We didn't have iTunes music at the time.

34:29

So it wasn't the entire Beach Boys library.

34:33

We only had certain songs. And so the next day was, how do we make him as comfortable as possible?

34:38

How do we give him the energy he needs? So if he wants to go, how does he want to do it?

34:43

Does he want to go with everyone there? Does he want to go with just mom?

34:46

Does he want to go completely by himself? How does he want to move over?

34:52

And so Marnie was like, open up the window.

34:56

A lot of people like to have the window open when they go. And so,

34:59

but one of the things that Jay Ware had told me, and because this changed my

35:03

sense, my sensibility about it was just go through the whole thing and just

35:09

be grateful that you're having these moments. Be grateful, be attentive, be aware, and be present.

35:14

You will be surprised what beautiful moments will come out of that.

35:19

And so that advice was very important to me.

35:23

And I have since, now that I think about it, when I see the other people who

35:28

had more of, oh my God, I can't believe this is happening, this is a tragedy,

35:32

this is terrible, crying, I'm so sorry you're going, that their memories of this experience are very different than mine.

35:38

My memory of this experience is just nothing but gratitude, nothing but how

35:42

lucky we were to have this experience.

35:45

How lucky dad was to go in a house where everyone was present,

35:50

how lucky we were to have these moments that we remember that meant something to us.

35:55

Whereas if you had asked my aunt Liz, who's now passed, unfortunately,

36:00

she would remember it as a terrible weekend, that this is the weekend that dad died.

36:03

Whenever I have friends who have similar experiences coming, I tell them about it.

36:09

Jeremy's advice and how much difference it made for me. So the next day was

36:13

all about saying goodbye or not saying goodbye.

36:16

Friday was about saying goodbye. Friday was about how does he want to go?

36:20

And we tried all different options. We didn't rush anything.

36:23

We just let it go. And I went to go to sleep that night, Saturday night,

36:30

and I slept for about maybe 35 minutes minutes before I got up.

36:37

I just woke up for no good reason.

36:40

And I leaned down the hall and I could hear kind of this death rattle.

36:45

It's just this really that I hadn't heard before.

36:48

And it was, I didn't like it. I didn't like it. And I was kind of surprised he was still alive.

36:53

I thought he was going to go. And so I got up and I walked down the hall.

36:59

My cousin Marnie was just outside his door and she had just fallen asleep.

37:03

And then I realized that that death rattle was my brother snoring in the living room.

37:08

And then I come in and I turned to my dad and I could see he was gone. He was gone.

37:17

And then I reached over and I touched him and he was clearly gone.

37:23

And then I woke Marnie up and Marnie had on her wrist, her sleep monitor.

37:28

So she knew that she had only been been asleep for like 10 minutes.

37:31

And it sounds like my dad, like this is, if you made me guess,

37:35

I would have said he'd probably want to die by himself.

37:38

And so as soon as Marnie fell asleep, and as soon as he was alone.

37:42

He went over, he passed over and went to the other side.

37:47

To this day, I still believe like something in the energy of that house shifted that woke me up.

37:54

Something shifted that woke me up. I had slept...

37:57

So little over those last three or four days to wake me out of a dead sleep took something.

38:03

And then it's the timeline of it. Marnie had just fallen asleep.

38:07

I had just woken up and he passed somewhere in between, which was maybe five to 10 minutes.

38:13

And we had been waiting all day for like, how does he want to go?

38:15

How does he want to go? I started to wake everybody up and say,

38:18

hey, dad has passed and dad has passed.

38:20

And one of the really peculiar things, both my mom and I I had commented on

38:24

it, that his face was mostly in pain through three days.

38:29

He just didn't look good. He just didn't look like my dad.

38:32

And then, of course, my mom and I had that night where he was in such excruciating

38:36

pain without the painkillers. But when he passed, he looked like himself.

38:41

He lied on that bed, peaceful. He looked like himself.

38:44

I don't know. It looked like he gained weight, which I'm sure there's some kind

38:48

of physiological thing that happened. It was just a few minutes, but he looked at ease and at peace and he looked like himself.

38:56

So that was a really wonderful thing to see and a peaceful thing for us to see, to say goodbye.

39:04

And so then we called the funeral home.

39:07

They brought two people out. And of course, I don't know who works funeral homes.

39:13

Like that's a unique job to do that.

39:17

And the guy that worked there, I don't know if you've ever seen the horror movie, Dr.

39:24

Giggles. No, but that's funny.

39:54

Do, finally leaned over to me at some point and said, did they send Dr.

39:59

Giggles over to pick up dad? And I was like, oh my God, it's not just me.

40:04

This guy is, because he looked like, and I hope he's not listening to this podcast,

40:09

but he looked like a creepy funeral home guy.

40:14

At that point, we just found it hilarious.

40:17

It just got such a kick out of that. that this guy came straight out of Hollywood

40:23

typecasting of what a funeral home guy looks like.

40:27

And he was very stilted in his rehearsed language.

40:31

This is what we're going to do. I'm very sorry for your loss.

40:34

We're going to take a moment with your beloved and we are going to move into

40:37

the other room. We were going to... Do this. And then we will come out and then we will check with you.

40:41

And like, just no, no bedside manner whatsoever, but very rehearsed.

40:47

Like it was written to have bedside manner, but he could not sum it up.

40:51

Like it was just Dr. Giggles. There's no bedside manner there.

40:55

So that became one of those very distinct memories we have of like,

40:59

Dr. Giggles came and picked up our dad. Like that's how it happened.

41:04

So, you know, like they, they picked up the body and I don't like big,

41:09

I don't, I'm not into materialistic things.

41:12

I shouldn't say that. I mean, like I love TVs. I love computers.

41:14

I just mean sentimentally, like I don't have, oh, this person gave this to me

41:19

that gave me this worthless thing and I've kept it for 20 years.

41:22

Like I just, I don't have that thing. I want less stuff.

41:27

I know my brother took some of the ashes. My mom's got an urn on a shelf in my dad's old office.

41:34

I want nothing to do with any of that stuff. Because I remember before my dad

41:38

passed, maybe a year my dad passed, he wanted to give me a nice coat that he

41:43

had, like a nice, really nice business raincoat.

41:47

And I was like, I can't take that, dad. I don't want it. He's like, it's really nice.

41:50

He's like, if you give that to me, I'm going to be stuck with that coat for

41:54

the rest of my life because it's going to be the coat my dad gave me and I'm

41:58

not going to be able to get rid of it ever. And so if I take that now, I'm I'm going to have that coat until the day I die.

42:04

And I don't want it. And he was like, yeah, I can see that. I didn't make sense.

42:07

So like he went and put it up again. So two things.

42:11

I'm now stuck with that coat. I still like that. I got like that was given to

42:14

me by my mom. And so like, oh, now I still got this fucking coat.

42:17

And I didn't want any of the ashes. I didn't want anything along those lines.

42:21

But I did get his electric razor.

42:24

That's great because like I don't shave every day.

42:27

And so this could be convenient if I have a podcast or anything,

42:29

I can do the electric razor. But it's old and I needed to change the blades on it.

42:34

And so I opened up the electric razor and this is like six, eight,

42:38

maybe like a year after, maybe like two years after my dad died.

42:43

And I opened up the electric razor and it's filled with my dad's whiskers from when he shaved his face.

42:49

It's filled with his whiskers. And I'm like, son of a bitch,

42:52

what do I, I can't, this is my dad's DNA.

42:55

I can't throw it away. away like so like

42:58

what do i what i'm stuck but i can't throw away his whiskers so all right i

43:05

guess i so i get a little little plastic bag that i like my little travel looks

43:09

like a little cocaine bag that you like cocaine in so i put it in there and

43:14

i was like i can't throw it out. I got to find a place to bury it somewhere. And I keep forgetting to bring it

43:21

up to my mom's house where I can bury it.

43:23

And so I am, in effect, stuck with these ashes type thing of my dad's facial

43:28

hair that I can't I can't get rid of.

43:32

And like I've even had the thought of like maybe in the future when you can

43:35

clone people, I'll have his DNA and I can have like stuck with this thing.

43:41

So like all these best laid plans of not having any sentimental attachments.

43:47

I've got the coat and I'm stuck with these these whiskers in my in my office

43:53

and a little tiny cocaine bag waiting to do something with it. I love the cloning idea.

43:58

My dad will think that's funny. I was like, maybe you could turn it into some

44:01

sort of like art piece. An art piece.

44:04

Yeah, because you're stuck with like, what's respectful? What's disrespectful?

44:08

What do I feel like? Like, everyone's going to have a disagreement of like,

44:11

take the whiskers and glue them on to you glue dad's whiskers onto a poster board. How dare you?

44:17

Like, you're not, you're, there's no good thing. Like, they're going to piss somebody off with it.

44:23

I was also thinking like, I would, if they were my whiskers,

44:26

I probably like would want to see if I could smell him.

44:28

Oh my God. That, that I got to tell you never occurred to me.

44:32

As an old drunk snorting, like this is too close to snorting,

44:37

you know, like what is the sneezing attack?

44:40

I had accidentally snorted my dad's whiskers. How do I explain that?

44:44

I know your spouse comes in and you've got hair coming out of your nose. Hair all over. Yeah.

44:51

Trying to keep you guessing, honey. Like I said, I remain very, very grateful for it.

44:56

I'm so glad I was sober for it. I've been sober 20, 22 years now.

45:01

I guess I'd been sober 18 years at that point. Was glad I was there.

45:05

You know, I had relatives that weren't sober through it.

45:07

And again, they had a different experience through the whole thing.

45:10

And, you know, just coming in, J-Ware's advice, just being present, just being present.

45:15

That was huge. Seems like there was a lot of blessings there.

45:18

In the whole experience. It was amazing. Like I said, I'm so grateful for it.

45:23

But I did have a tiny midlife crisis afterwards because I wasn't married at the time.

45:28

And my dad passed and I remember exactly where I was in the guest bedroom in the door.

45:33

And I had a moment being, God, I guess 48 and single and never been married.

45:39

And I had a moment of, oh gosh, I'm going to die.

45:43

And I am I'm not going to have a house full of people there for me.

45:46

And I was so grateful he had that.

45:49

But there was definitely the realization of, oh, I'm not going to have that.

45:53

It's going to be a nursery, like a nursing home for me because I'm not going

45:58

to have any kids. I'm not going to have. So there was definitely like a little mini panic over the next year.

46:05

And they say, like, don't make any big decisions after like a big event like

46:09

that. So yeah, it affected me in a lot of different ways, a lot of positive ways.

46:16

And like anything, you lose your dad and you start thinking about stuff.

46:20

And I essentially, I was living in LA at the time, and I essentially moved in with my mom.

46:26

So I kept my apartment in LA and I brought the cats out to my mom's.

46:32

So I took that guest room, but I had to fly back every week.

46:35

So I would fly out from maybe like Sunday to Tuesday to LA to do work,

46:42

to teach a class, do what I needed to do, and then fly back and spend the week with my mom.

46:48

And I did that for probably about seven, eight months, just so she had somebody

46:54

there in the house with her.

46:56

So that transition was a little easier for her.

47:01

And then she didn't have a dog at the time, so the cats were great too,

47:04

because they could roam the house and be there.

47:06

But that also was kind of an adventure.

47:09

I made the A-list on Southwest Airlines, so I was very excited about that.

47:13

That was that was my big achievement that year. How did you meet your wife?

47:16

I Jeannie and I had we met in college.

47:20

We went on a date in 1993, I think.

47:24

At some point you ran into I say we ran into each other. I made a point.

47:28

She was back in Houston and was in a show.

47:30

And I made a point to to go to that show and then say hi afterwards.

47:35

So that pretend like it was accidental. And oh, Jeannie, you were you were great

47:41

in that show. Hi, remember me? You know, that sort of thing. I got a second date, I think, 28 years later.

47:47

I got a second date. That is a great story. But do you ever think to yourself,

47:51

we totally could have, like, had a whole nother life together?

47:54

Oh, yeah. We talk about it all the time of just like we could have we could

47:58

have definitely dated back then. But I was a drunk, you know, I got to recall, like I was not I'm not a great guy.

48:05

You know, there's obviously I like to think a great guy underneath there.

48:09

But there was too much drinking, my social anxiety.

48:12

I didn't know I had anxiety then. I didn't know I had social anxiety.

48:16

I covered it up with drinking. So in my mind of like, oh, I need a couple of

48:21

drinks to get comfortable here, I didn't realize that's my anxiety.

48:24

And so when I quit drinking, they prescribed to me Paxil, which is an antidepressant.

48:32

And so they just thought of like, this is helpful for anyone who quits drinking and do this.

48:37

And so I ended up doing that. But then at 10 years later, I was like,

48:42

I don't want to be on these pills anymore. What am I doing on these pills? I don't need them. And then I quit those pills.

48:47

And then like three or four months later, I started to have this really hardcore

48:52

anxiety, just creeping anxiety and getting worse and worse.

48:56

And I couldn't understand it. And I was improvising and like it had become terrifying.

49:00

And I was having, I had an anxiety attack while improvising during a scene once. Oh, my God.

49:35

And then when you stop drinking, we put you on Paxil. And one of the things

49:39

Paxil treats is social anxiety. So I had this thing covered up.

49:44

I would feel it every now and then, but I never identified it as such.

49:48

Like I never knew what it was. I just thought that was life.

49:51

I just thought that's how life was. That was a big thing with my drinking of

49:54

just how drunk I would get and how unhappy I was.

49:58

And then one of the things sobriety taught me was like, oh yeah,

50:01

no, life's not supposed to be that way.

50:04

Life's not supposed to be miserable and unhappy and horrible.

50:08

You don't have to live life that way. For me of like, oh, that makes so much sense.

50:13

And I could trace so much of my issues and so much of my drinking,

50:17

so much of the choices I made based off of that social anxiety that I didn't even know I had.

50:23

It was really incredible of like how clear my life suddenly became of the choices

50:28

that I made, both good and bad, and how I ended up where I ended up because

50:32

I had this essentially undiagnosed social anxiety.

50:36

Now, I wish that I had dealt with it with cognitive therapy.

50:41

Like, that's what I would encourage anyone of like, you know,

50:43

cognitive therapy should be your first choice to deal with any of that.

50:46

But I've been on Paxil for so long. And so I'm doing it that way for the most

50:52

part. But it's such a black box.

50:54

We have so little information about what Paxil does to you long term.

50:58

We have so little information. I have no idea how much I'm going to have to pay for this in 10,

51:02

20 years. If anyone's out there with a social anxiety or anything along those

51:06

lines, cognitive therapy is such a better route, such a better route. Have you tried that too?

51:12

I tried it for a little bit, but the pills right now are just so easy for me.

51:16

I just take a pill every day and I can live a decent life.

51:19

So it's hard for me to like, okay, I'm raising an 11 year old. I'm married.

51:24

Do I really want to go through all of that again to try to like go through it?

51:31

And so I made a conscious decision of rolling the dice of, I know my memory's

51:35

worse, like my memory's not so great. We don't know what the long-term effects are. So it's definitely a roll of the dice.

51:42

But again, going back to my 20s, I was self-diagnosed or self-treating with

51:47

alcohol, not knowing what I had. But if I knew what I had then looking back

51:51

and you give me an option, I go cognitive therapy.

51:54

Like do that then when you don't have a life of responsibilities and like it

51:59

just makes so much more sense. Do you think, though, that that helps you in your creativity, having that anxiety?

52:06

No, I don't think so. My writing's better than it ever was.

52:10

OK. Yeah. Like so I don't worry about that. I think what what has changed is my drive.

52:17

That's changed the most, where my drive in my 20s was this conviction that I

52:25

was not worth loving unless I was successful, that I had to write, I had to be successful,

52:30

that my value was in how good my screenplays were, how much money I was making, and what kind of...

52:37

It never occurred to me that anyone would love me just because they enjoy my company.

52:41

That never occurred to me. So I had to be successful.

52:46

And that kind of fear does motivate you. It is motivating.

52:51

I was working all night writing, trying to get stuff done, trying to get good at it.

52:55

But I had reached some success in the 90s with my writing and still have not

53:02

matched that kind of money that I made during the 90s.

53:05

I was as unhappy as I've ever been, which was like one of my bottoms with my drinking.

53:10

I had achieved a lot of the goals that I had set out for myself and I was miserable. I was so unhappy.

53:18

And it was terrifying because there was that sense of, well, what now?

53:22

I was supposed to be, this is what I've been working for. This is what I was

53:26

supposed to be happy for. And now I've got this. And if this doesn't make me happy, where else do I go?

53:32

It was terrifying. I can relate to that. I can relate to that so much.

53:35

I mean, I had my Hollywood chapter as well. And I, at the end of it,

53:39

I even said to myself, it's like, how many times do I need to see my name in

53:42

the credits before I feel like I actually am successful?

53:45

Yeah. Yeah. And then. Or that it wasn't by chance. chance. Yeah.

53:48

If this doesn't do it, what is going to do it? It was terrifying.

53:53

So I was like, oh, I'm going to be unhappy the rest of my life.

53:56

Oh, I understand. I get it. And it was just, I didn't know how to live.

54:00

I didn't know how to be present. I didn't know.

54:03

AA, to a lot of degrees, I don't really go to meetings anymore for various reasons.

54:10

I credit AA for setting me on a path of of curiosity, of how to live. That's wonderful.

54:17

How has that helped you with the work that you do with your students?

54:21

Well, it helps with the writing a lot. And so that, in effect,

54:24

helps with the students. I'm a much more emotional writer now. I'm much more interested in the human experience.

54:30

I'm much more interested in story as change and redemption and growth.

54:35

That's become a singular through

54:37

my writing of defining story as the transformation of a human being.

54:42

I think I was somewhat intellectually interested in that beforehand.

54:46

Redemption, but I think afterwards it became much more of an emotional hook

54:52

that means something to me now. Being more present, being more aware, being more empathetic,

54:57

all these things help your writing, your storytelling, your art tremendously.

55:02

Do you put real life people that you know into your stories?

55:06

Certainly shades and moments of it. Yeah, absolutely.

55:09

When I got married, I was gifted with a six year old stepdaughter and I wrote

55:15

a horror movie like within a year with, you know, about parents and like what?

55:20

But and a lot of that was informed of the anxiety of being a parent and watching

55:26

my wife having to maneuver because I I'm a stepdad.

55:30

So I I come in it from like the bonus child bonus dad territory of like,

55:35

we're lucky to have each other. You know, like I didn't think I was going to have a child.

55:39

So I'm lucky to have you. I'm a good guy.

55:42

I'm a good dad. Most of the time I screw up a lot, but for the most of the time,

55:47

I'm a good dad. So you're lucky to have me.

55:49

So let's just enjoy how lucky we are to have each other.

55:52

And whereas Jeannie, my wife is much more like, I'm going to screw this up.

55:57

I'm going to damage her. I'm going to scar her for life.

56:00

I'm like, she comes from a place more of anxiety and more of like,

56:03

I need to do this right. Right. Watching that kind of informed like, oh, yeah, this is I might be that way if,

56:10

you know, I had been here from the beginning.

56:12

Would that have been the kind of dad that I would have been,

56:15

you know, if I was there from day one? But so that informed a lot of like that script of where does that anxiety take

56:22

you? Like like what kind of decisions do you make?

56:25

What kind of choices do you make?

56:27

And and so I, you know, I formed a horror film out of it. I love that.

56:32

I also love the question that you just said, like, would this have been different

56:36

if I was there from the beginning? That's such a deep question to ask yourself.

56:40

Yeah. Yeah. And there's no answer. There's no answer. It is different.

56:43

Being a stepdad and being a biological dad is different.

56:46

You try to make it as little difference as possible. But there are there are differences to it.

56:53

Did it at all make you think about like wanting a child of your own?

56:57

Not really. I selfishly, I would love to have like a 22 year old kid,

57:05

you know, like that's kind of what maybe a high school kid, you know,

57:09

like, like that. Not sleeping through the night part.

57:11

Yeah. Yeah. Like someone I can chat with and give advice to,

57:15

you know, I'm looking forward to Carrington being older. Like that's going to be fun.

57:19

I loved being an uncle. I love being an uncle. That's delightful.

57:23

But yeah, those first few years don't sound like all that much fun to me.

57:28

They sound pretty awful. And I've gotten older now. I'm in my 50s now.

57:35

Jeannie and I are not certainly, we're at the age we're not going to have kids.

57:38

So it has already been removed as an option. But Jeannie does think about it.

57:43

Jeannie's like, do you wish you had it? She feels bad. We got married late.

57:47

And so do you wish you had it? And I keep telling her, nope.

57:50

I really don't. I don't have that urge to go through that experience. experience.

57:58

But there is that, how nice it would be to have all the good stuff. That's not how it goes.

58:03

You don't get just the good stuff. You get the whole package.

58:08

And I'm grateful I didn't have them when I was younger because I was a drunk.

58:11

And if I had gotten married and had kids, I would now be divorced.

58:16

No matter who that was, they would have divorced me and I'd be out of the house. else.

58:21

It all ended up the way it's supposed to end up, I think.

58:25

I can't think of anything that I could add that wouldn't take away something

58:30

I'm not willing to trade away. That's really beautiful.

58:32

I love that. I am curious, have you learned anything about yourself since you did get married?

58:37

And what would you tell someone who still wants to find love later in life?

58:42

Oh my gosh, that's such a good question because I have no advice.

58:45

I know there's some truth to stop looking.

58:49

I think there's some truth to that, but I also know people who just decided,

58:53

I think I'm going to get married and they got married. I don't think there's any truth that's universal for everybody.

59:00

So my advice would just simply be, I know for me, I was not ready to get married for a long, long time.

59:08

I know what shifted for me was I had finally gotten to a place in my my own

59:14

life where I was content.

59:17

And I was happy. And I've been very good with friendships over the years.

59:21

I've been very, very blessed with long-term friendships from every phase of

59:25

my life. I have valued those. So I know how to be a friend and I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of people.

59:32

Most of the time, I was like anyone, I have some failures.

59:35

But I think what shifted for me was I finally was content with my own life and

59:42

there was a desire to share it.

59:44

That's amazing. That was the shift for me.

59:47

Yeah, I love that. Are you working on a piece right now called Daddy's Girls?

59:51

Do you see that somewhere? I think it was like on your LinkedIn or something.

59:55

Yeah. It's supposed to come out 2024. That's a project that it is a thriller. And it's a lot about my own,

1:00:01

my 20s, where I wasn't a very good guy.

1:00:04

And so it's basically a guy has a relatively short-term girlfriend.

1:00:09

He wants to break up with her, but she's hot. And so he ends up having sex with her like one last time.

1:00:17

Instead of breaking up with her, he spends one more night with her,

1:00:20

but then gets ringed into having Thanksgiving with her and her family.

1:00:25

And he's just too much of a coward to stop of like just being upfront and this is how I feel.

1:00:31

And so he ends up having Thanksgiving with her and then afterwards ghosts her.

1:00:34

As a result, the father of the girl decides you show up at our Thanksgiving.

1:00:40

We welcome you in as a family. And then you fucking ghost my daughter and then

1:00:45

decides to basically dismantle this kid's life, sets out to destroy it systematically, destroy his life.

1:00:51

So it is a piece, I wrote it in 2009 and it took 12 years to set up and 14 years

1:00:58

to sell, but we finally sold it.

1:01:01

We got a director for it. I'm going to go out to cast to see the SAG is over.

1:01:06

The SAG strike is over. The plan is to go make it next year.

1:01:09

Are you going to be shooting that in LA? I don't know. It takes place in Houston.

1:01:12

Most of my scripts take place in Houston, but they always shoot it somewhere

1:01:15

else. They shoot it in Toronto. They shoot it in Vancouver.

1:01:18

They shoot it in New Zealand. They shoot it in Bulgaria.

1:01:22

But they're all written to take place in Houston. Have any of them taken place here?

1:01:27

No, none of the scripts that have been produced have taken place. Oh, no, that's not.

1:01:31

There is one. There is one that I directed, and we shot it in Houston.

1:01:35

But that was my smallest. Oh, my gosh. Well, obviously, I love the title. No.

1:01:41

Yes, I figured you would. That's great. Is there anything that you'd like to ask my dad?

1:01:45

Oh, that's a very good, I did not expect that. Yeah. And he'll respond when

1:01:49

you get the final edit. Okay, he'll respond when we get the final edit.

1:01:52

I am very curious if you have always been this outgoing.

1:01:56

Have you always been this comfortable with other people? And was this something

1:02:00

that you, because I'm very curious about nature and nurture and like how much this affects,

1:02:07

because I've gotten a lot of good indications that both are more influential.

1:02:12

So like we have, Carrington is very outgoing.

1:02:16

Carrington is very good at, hey, I'm Carrington, want to play?

1:02:20

She'll do that with anybody. Whereas like, I just look at that as someone with

1:02:24

social anxiety of going, oh, they're going to hurt you.

1:02:26

They're going to say no, and you're going to hear your feelings are going to get hurt.

1:02:29

So like, I can't handle the thought of doing something like that.

1:02:33

So I'm curious of like, is this something that was always inside you?

1:02:37

And were you like that in the early years? or was this something that had developed over time?

1:02:42

It'll be interesting to hear his reaction, but I will tell you that I think

1:02:45

there's ebbs and flows of it, right? So as a kid, you are that, I was, that little girl that wanted to sing to people

1:02:52

and had this little confidence about myself, but then the world kind of beats you down.

1:02:56

And I think that after having interviewed over 300 people, I have worked that muscle. Yeah.

1:03:02

I desire to be that little girl again. But I think that as an artist.

1:03:06

As somebody who wants to get better at interviewing and improv-ing and connecting

1:03:10

with people, I think that it's something that you really have to work on.

1:03:13

Yeah. I mean, most things are. Most things are practice.

1:03:16

Most things are get into that mindset of, particularly as writers, of writing.

1:03:21

I talk about this a lot of like writing things down is not just about remembering it.

1:03:26

Writing Writing things down is about training your mind to filter the world

1:03:30

through a certain prism of how you see it.

1:03:32

Writing down story ideas is great because you remember the story idea,

1:03:36

but you are also creating a filter for how you perceive the world. Like, is that a story?

1:03:41

So as information comes in, is that a story?

1:03:44

And so as an interviewer, I would think there's a very similar filter that you

1:03:48

build up of where do I go from that of like, oh, is that, do I let that go?

1:03:54

Or do I dig deeper into that? Do I let that branch? Which branch off of that do I then follow up with?

1:03:59

And so the more you get comfortable with that, the more in tune that filter

1:04:03

gets of like what the right decision is. I absolutely love what you just said. And to like when you're interviewing somebody

1:04:09

that you're not sure how much time you have with them.

1:04:12

Yeah. Like, do you ask what the audience wants to ask or are you selfish?

1:04:17

Yeah. So there's a balance there, too, because sometimes you're like,

1:04:21

well, I got a piece of what they want and there's still other things I want to know.

1:04:25

Do I go deeper or do I switch? Yeah. And I'm constantly after the interview thinking about that.

1:04:32

And I wonder that about your writing as well.

1:04:34

I, for the most part, I, you know, obviously every moment is different,

1:04:39

but for the most part, I write with the assumption that if I find it interesting,

1:04:43

the audience will. Yeah. That's confidence right there.

1:04:46

Yeah. And I think for the most part, that's a safe assumption. I agree.

1:04:49

And I feel like the more that I've done interviews and the more that I have

1:04:54

found my tribe, that seems to be true.

1:04:57

Because if your audience is building and you're attracting more of the people

1:05:00

who you want to attract, then obviously your interview style is working.

1:05:04

Yeah, because they find where you go with it interesting.

1:05:08

And so it just becomes just like this snowball effect.

1:05:11

The people that like what you find interesting, interesting are the people that

1:05:15

keep coming and coming and coming. Do people pitch you? Yes, all the time. I fucking hate it.

1:05:20

Hate it, hate it. Everyone thinks they know what a good story is.

1:05:23

And like, it's, you know, we get paid good money for a reason because it's hard,

1:05:28

you know, and recognizing a good story is hard and what makes a good story hard.

1:05:32

And how are you going to execute it? It's, I've got a story idea.

1:05:35

And it's like, no, you don't. And it's hard. You can't be mad at them because they just don't know any better.

1:05:39

But it's it's very similar of like after a sporting event of people like,

1:05:43

hey, why didn't we why didn't the quarterback do that? Why didn't the quarterback do that?

1:05:47

And like it's Monday morning quarterbacking and people don't realize how hard

1:05:51

other people's jobs are for the most part.

1:05:53

Everyone thinks every other industry is filled with idiots. What do you say

1:05:57

to people in a nice way that do pitch you? Yeah, you're, I'm always,

1:06:01

I mean, just, you're always very polite about it, you know, because they mean well, they get excited.

1:06:06

You don't want someone's enthusiasm and like piss on it. You know,

1:06:10

like that's like no one, no one needs or wants that.

1:06:13

A lot of times if there's something there, I will encourage them to write it.

1:06:18

I'm like, hey, it's like, if you want to write, oh no, I need to write it.

1:06:20

Those are the ones of like, well, no, the writing's the hard part,

1:06:24

you know, like that. So I sometimes nod and go, oh, all right.

1:06:27

Yeah, that could work maybe. And then I'm too busy. I can't do it. You know, like that sort of thing.

1:06:32

But yeah, I always tend to be pretty, you know, polite and encouraging about it.

1:06:37

It always puts me in a spot of like a spot that I would rather not be in.

1:06:41

But again, like if someone's enthusiastic about something, you want to encourage it.

1:06:45

No one needs a fucking downer because they have like something they're excited

1:06:48

about. Have any people that have come to you with a pitch ended up taking your

1:06:52

class and then it becoming fruitful?

1:06:55

And I also want you to be able to promote your class because I love your Twitter.

1:06:59

I love your newsletter and you're doing amazing things. Oh, thank you.

1:07:02

No, for the most part, if someone wants to take my class, that's how I'll meet them.

1:07:07

But I've never I've never had anybody like I have a story idea because I also

1:07:11

feel uncomfortable pitching my class because that's always like a weird thing

1:07:15

of like, hey, I have a story idea. Oh, you should give me money and I will help you with it. It's like a very awkward

1:07:20

transition. I think you should try that.

1:07:51

Convince people that you work for a living when you work at home or like, right.

1:07:56

And like, there is that sense of people don't, they think because your,

1:08:00

your schedule is somewhat flexible and you don't have a boss that everything is fungible.

1:08:04

Like that you've got all the time in the world. Like it's just two hours out of your day. Yeah.

1:08:09

It's two hours out of my day. That's my point. But I'll meet people when they take my class.

1:08:14

I teach Monday nights, which is the story and plot pro, which are the more advanced students.

1:08:19

And there's a system you have to go through to qualify for that because that's an in-person.

1:08:23

And that's a real personal, we're a tight group there.

1:08:27

That's where J-Ware is. And that is much more of a writer's group.

1:08:32

Everyone's relatively close and it's a good group. And then I teach asynchronous

1:08:37

classes, which are pre-recorded videos, take at your own pace classes.

1:08:42

Which have turned out really great.

1:08:45

I've been so happy with how they've turned out. And it's really a result of

1:08:48

just teaching for as long as I have. Like I know how to structure this out to be really, really effective.

1:08:53

And so some people are a little nervous about taking an asynchronous course,

1:08:57

but I've been really, really gratified that like those people have been turned

1:08:59

around as soon as they take it. It is a really, really strong course and a reference point.

1:09:05

They're designed to take the course once, but also break it down in smaller

1:09:10

chapters so you can reference them at any time.

1:09:13

Like if you're struggling with Act 1, you can go back to those videos and watch those videos.

1:09:17

So it works as much as an appendix as anything else as well.

1:09:21

So I love those. I recommend those. Then, of course, I teach at the University of Houston. I teach three classes

1:09:26

here, which this is my alma mater. and I love being here and remarkably overqualified

1:09:32

to be teaching introduction to screenwriting like I do here, but I enjoy it.

1:09:37

And I'll keep doing at least the advanced class here as long as they have me.

1:09:41

So I'm not sure how much longer I'll be teaching all three courses at U of H.

1:09:45

I would like to retire teaching the advanced class here. I really,

1:09:48

really enjoy it. And then so my website is storyandplot.com.

1:09:52

And I have a weekly email I send out every Tuesday, which is a screenwriting

1:09:56

lesson every Tuesday morning.

1:09:58

And then I'm on Twitter at Story and Plot, LinkedIn as well.

1:10:02

I also do Facebook, but really Twitter is the best place to follow me.

1:10:07

That's where I spend the most energy to kind of develop the tweets.

1:10:10

Your tweets get a lot of hits too. Yeah. I mean, I take it seriously. I try to add value.

1:10:17

It is my goal to add valuable tweets twice a day. That's amazing.

1:10:23

Yeah. Well, you are a gift to the community. So you are very kind to say, yeah, thank you.

1:10:29

And like the whole point of the Twitter is to motivate you and encourage you

1:10:33

to sign up to the Tuesday email.

1:10:35

Like that's why it's there. It works for me. Great. Love it.

1:10:38

And I haven't unsubscribed, which I do to many newsletters because I do really

1:10:43

find it valuable. So keep it up.

1:10:46

Yeah, I spend a lot of time to make it valuable.

1:10:49

So it's really it's really nice to hear that. Thank you so much for coming on

1:10:53

the Better Call Daddy show. It has been an absolute honor, Tom.

1:10:56

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm glad to talk about my dad.

1:11:01

You've heard from my mom now let's switch it over to grandpa.

1:11:07

All right tom vaughn tom vaughn

1:11:11

it sounds like a hollywood name don't you think it does well i'll tell you i

1:11:15

got some things out of this interview you had with me that only again reinforce

1:11:20

the legacy story of the better call daddy show he started by asking me a question

1:11:25

at the end what What makes you so outgoing?

1:11:28

And isn't that also correlated to the love and attention that you get?

1:11:32

And as you know, I was the favorite of grandparents, friends.

1:11:36

I learned to go for the gusto at a very early age where I always was motivated

1:11:41

and pushed to be part of different activities and to learn how to fend for yourself.

1:11:46

And that also builds momentum. That also, when you keep striving,

1:11:49

you keep getting results. You get better and better at whatever you do or whatever you try.

1:11:54

So the key is motivation. If you have people behind you supporting you and motivating you,

1:11:59

there's no telling how far you can go. As you know, I try to do that with you.

1:12:03

As well oh yeah oh yeah i've tried hard to

1:12:06

push and give opportunity to my children just as

1:12:09

that was given to me isn't that part of a legacy story

1:12:12

is to have a continuum it can't be just about yourself you have to be able to

1:12:16

have a generational pull i just watched with maureen on tv one of these great

1:12:22

opera singers where his daughter had already heard before is terrific but his

1:12:27

son has has just come out with a new album.

1:12:29

I think his name is Mayetto. Also sounded just beautifully, and he's doing a

1:12:33

tour in New York right now where, again, the motivation and the encouragement

1:12:38

of participating really in the family business, which is, in this case, is singing.

1:12:43

And doesn't that happen through many generations where people that run factories

1:12:46

or people that run businesses or are doctors or lawyers also see the same thing

1:12:51

where they try to encourage their children maybe to do the same thing and to have that continuum.

1:12:56

What was interesting in this, episode also is that not only do you encourage

1:13:01

people when they were young to try to forge this continuum, but at the end of

1:13:06

life, Tom is working very hard.

1:13:08

His father is in a lot of pain, trying to hold on so that the task of getting

1:13:13

all of his children and all of his family to be able to see him and give him

1:13:18

a final look before he passes away,

1:13:21

the father responds that I'll hold hold on as long as it takes to gather everyone together.

1:13:26

Your great-grandma had a stroke. There was a big, was it a bar mitzvah,

1:13:30

that everybody came into town, and she held on. She was ready to go.

1:13:34

But because everyone came for the bar mitzvah and came to visit her,

1:13:38

she felt like it was okay to leave and not force everybody to come back for

1:13:42

a funeral when she decided to leave during a joyous occasion.

1:13:46

So isn't it quite ironic that people have sometimes the power to even hold on

1:13:51

when there's maybe not even any hope left to life.

1:13:54

And yet they find a determination still to hang around as long as family wants

1:14:00

to come and see them. And isn't that what we're doing with your grandma?

1:14:03

Is that we're on a cycle of having people, loved ones come visit her because

1:14:08

even a gap of just two or three days, she can't stand it.

1:14:11

She doesn't want to continue without loving family there to support her.

1:14:15

And isn't that what a secret ingredients to life really is? Is having support and family.

1:14:21

So that we can be encouraged to reach for the stars and to live and feel like

1:14:27

there's value to life because we're loved. That's a deep message.

1:14:30

Well, I think I got this out of here. And as you know, I had an uncle that got

1:14:34

married, couldn't have any children, and it broke my grandfather's heart that

1:14:39

there wasn't a continuum or a legacy of his name.

1:14:42

And after grandpa got depressed and passed away, what did his son do?

1:14:46

His son then adopted a young boy and started mentoring him, where he turned

1:14:51

into just a wonderful human being. Unfortunately, his life was cut short also. But the idea was that he decided

1:14:58

that to try to honor his father was to try to have some type of family continuum.

1:15:04

Even if he had to adopt a son, you couldn't tell that it wasn't his own son

1:15:08

because that love and compassion and support where he turned into it.

1:15:12

Just a tremendous human being. He kind of woke up and said, hey,

1:15:16

maybe my dad is right, that there should be some type of continuum.

1:15:20

And he went out after his father died and adopted a little boy.

1:15:24

And isn't that what Tom is also saying, is that with the ups and downs of how

1:15:28

creative you have to be and how you're only as good as your last show and you

1:15:32

can be creative and the glamour of Hollywood is a lot of hard work. It's a lot of strain.

1:15:38

And also where you think you've done done something wonderful,

1:15:41

and yet people can criticize you, tell you that it's not as good as you think

1:15:45

it is, or even where it's completely in the direction you want to go in because

1:15:49

people are running it as a business. If they want to change certain things based on whatever sponsors they have,

1:15:56

or they determine a lot of the final result.

1:15:58

You know, he loves acting. He loves the pressure of being creative and putting

1:16:03

something out there that's unique and being able to share it with the world

1:16:06

as a part of his communication of his value. you.

1:16:09

And yet it's not a perfect love story, is it? But how do you like how he says

1:16:14

to himself after his father had all these people together and he saw how important

1:16:18

family was and how everyone got united by rising to the occasion and giving

1:16:24

their dad a send off that he decided, hey, you know, I don't want to be all alone in this world either.

1:16:29

And he decided to straighten himself up and also make himself a family oriented version of himself.

1:16:36

So to speak, where he was able to to get married and normalized and understanding

1:16:41

that if he had certain anxieties, that there's better ways to solve that than

1:16:45

drinking and that drinking can be harmful to not only his career and his personality,

1:16:50

but also where others would not want to be around him if he's in that kind of condition.

1:16:55

So isn't that also part of the legacy of being the best of yourself?

1:16:59

So there's a lot of deep stuff that came out of this show that also reemphasizes

1:17:04

the theme of the Better Better Call Daddy show. All right.

1:17:10

Thanks for listening. Now I think I'm going to go call my dad.

1:17:13

I'll say goodbye and see you the next time.

1:17:16

Thanks for listening to the Better Call Daddy show. Join us weekly for new episodes and more daddy wisdom.

1:17:21

Better Call Daddy is good advice always.

1:17:24

Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. You can also find special episodes

1:17:28

on my YouTube channel. And you can listen on Apple Podcasts,

1:17:32

Google Play, Spotify, Amazon Music, Alexa, or your preferred podcatcher. That's a wrap for now.