0:00

ABC Listen, podcasts,

0:02

radio, news, music and

0:05

more. Do

0:08

you recall way back when Minister

0:10

Barry Jones called scientists a lot

0:12

of wimps because they

0:14

failed to demonstrate publicly when the situation

0:17

needed it? Well, what do

0:19

you make of this in Adelaide a few days

0:21

ago? Museums are

0:23

not boring. They

0:25

create new knowledge that helps

0:28

us understand the world yesterday,

0:30

today and tomorrow. By

0:33

reducing the number of specialist collection

0:35

managers and scientists, limiting the management and

0:38

access of these collections and hampering the

0:40

capacity of museum staff to conduct research,

0:43

the potential for biodiversity conservation in

0:45

South Australia into the future will

0:47

be seriously challenged. If

0:51

the restructure goes ahead it will place

0:53

at risk a legacy of research and

0:55

knowledge going back over 160 years and

0:57

it won't just be the scientists who

0:59

lose something, it will be our Australian

1:02

species, our ecosystems, our capacity

1:04

to protect our environment and our

1:06

children and grandchildren's chance to enjoy

1:08

restored biodiversity and natural wonders. Hello

1:28

again Robin Williams and a science show with

1:30

both scientists and the scientifically minded up

1:32

in arms about changes to a museum

1:34

in South Australia that's been venerable and

1:36

even peaceful for so long. A

1:39

public petition has been signed by former ministers,

1:42

even premiers and the

1:44

present Lord Mayor of Adelaide, Dr

1:46

Jane Lomax Smith. Here's

1:48

what's been happening, a summary

1:50

from another petition signatory Professor

1:52

Rob Morrison of Flinders University

1:54

and why he's concerned. scientists

2:00

protesting in the streets. What

2:03

prompted it? The planned desecration

2:05

of one of the nation's

2:07

foremost scientific institutions, the

2:10

South Australian Museum. The

2:12

museum's charter under law is to

2:14

carry out or promote research into

2:17

matters of science and historical interest

2:19

and to accumulate and care for objects

2:22

and specimens of the same. South

2:25

Australia is known as the mammalian extinction

2:27

capital of the world. Since

2:30

European settlement it's lost 73

2:32

vertebrate species, more than 20 of

2:35

the mammals and that's about a quarter of the total,

2:37

with more on the way. Identifying

2:40

species and their locations and

2:42

helping to avoid such catastrophes

2:45

is the principal role of a museum

2:47

but it now seems to be the

2:49

least regarded in changes proposed for this

2:51

one. With the saccharine catch

2:54

cry of reimagining the museum, the

2:56

current board plans to focus on exhibitions

2:59

and increased engagement with the public. Original

3:02

research and describing new

3:04

species will largely cease.

3:07

27 research and collections positions

3:09

will be abolished and replaced

3:11

by 22 new positions with

3:13

different job descriptions and mostly

3:15

lower pay. The

3:17

success of South Australian Museum scientists

3:20

and being awarded national grants with

3:22

several million dollars is unrivaled by

3:24

any other Australian Museum and

3:27

many of these are ARC grants which are

3:29

not easily won. In

3:31

the zoological collections only three collection

3:33

managers will now look after nearly

3:36

five million specimens down from

3:38

nine plus a lab manager. One

3:40

person would have to handle

3:43

fish, frogs, reptiles, birds and

3:45

mammals. The museum's

3:47

molecular unit is likely to be

3:49

abolished and its staff made redundant.

3:52

The fate of its world-class frozen

3:54

tissue collection is unknown. Over

3:56

the last 40 years this unit

3:58

has discovered more than 500 new

4:01

species, including 46 now

4:03

listed as threatened. Even

4:06

honorary curators and staff who receive no

4:08

pay are likely to be culled. There

4:11

will be no cuts to managerial staff.

4:14

It's an enormous betrayal of the

4:16

museum's history, proper role, and its

4:18

charter. What will replace

4:20

them? It's hard to know. Promised

4:23

consultations have not occurred. A

4:25

director of collections and research has been

4:27

appointed, but since staff may

4:30

no longer apply for research grants

4:32

or add specimens to collections, collections

4:34

and research must have a very peculiar

4:37

meaning to the current management. One

4:40

suspects that digital displays will

4:42

replace real artefacts and scientific

4:44

discovery. Management

4:47

claims that most current research at

4:49

the museum is subject-specialized, serves

4:51

a narrow range of research

4:53

interests, duplicates university research and

4:55

can't be converted onto the

4:57

museum floor. It's

5:00

a sweet in generalization and largely

5:02

untrue. The link with

5:04

university research gave museums their birth

5:06

and exhibits and continues to

5:08

this day. A

5:10

few examples. Since

5:13

its inception in 1856, the

5:15

SA Museum has been a research

5:17

institution. E.C. Stirling

5:19

was the founding professor in the University

5:22

of Adelaide's medical school and

5:24

chairman of the initial South Australia

5:26

Museum Committee, becoming honorary director

5:28

in 1889. The

5:31

Horn Scientific Expedition of 1894 was

5:35

the first primarily scientific expedition to

5:37

study the natural history of Central

5:39

Australia, and it was

5:42

sponsored by three universities – Sydney,

5:44

Melbourne and Adelaide. For

5:46

museum-based science, it collected the name

5:48

to many new species, some now

5:50

extinct. At its legacy

5:53

as profound, Stirling was on it and

5:55

began to build an immense collection of

5:57

specimens relating to Aboriginal life in Australia.

6:00

Australia. The SA Museum

6:02

now holds the largest such collection in

6:04

the world. Professor

6:06

Baldwin Spencer from Melbourne met Francis

6:08

Gillan at the telegraph station in

6:11

Alice Springs, and they

6:13

amassed perhaps the most influential

6:15

collection of Australian ethographic material

6:17

ever assembled, and greatly

6:19

influenced the early development of European

6:22

anthropology. Sterling had

6:24

already collected much inland flora and

6:26

fauna including the Marsupial Mole. Retrieving

6:29

fossil bones at Lake Calibona on

6:32

a museum expedition allowed

6:34

reconstruction of the skeleton of

6:36

Di-Protodon, the largest marsupial ever

6:38

to have lived. Di-Protodon

6:40

brought the museum and Australian

6:42

animals into national prominence. It

6:45

was the first named Australian fossil mammal

6:48

described by the great English naturalist

6:50

Richard Owen, who became the

6:52

foremost authority on marsupials and

6:55

Australian megafauna. Fascinating

6:57

to European science, but nobody knew what

6:59

his feet were like. Owen's

7:01

engravings showed the skeleton incongruously standing

7:03

in tufts of grass to hide

7:05

them. Sterling supplied

7:07

the answer from museum specimens enabling

7:10

the first complete skeletons to be

7:12

assembled and copies sent around the

7:14

world. Later the museum's

7:16

Norman Tyndale mapped the various tribal

7:19

groupings of Aboriginal Australians at the

7:21

time of European settlement, and

7:23

it's been an invaluable map as

7:26

indigenous issues and land rights

7:28

have received increasing prominence in

7:30

Australia. Management

7:32

describes a digitally dark museum with

7:34

currently little connection between research and

7:36

conservation in the public face of

7:38

the museum, while its

7:40

academic research is currently inaccessible to

7:42

the public. But

7:44

more than half a million of its

7:46

digital records can be accessed publicly. Research

7:49

is published in journals, many of

7:51

them open access. Museum

7:54

scientists are the public face of research

7:56

and give many talks and media interviews.

7:59

Mike Tyler The Frogman was

8:01

an internationally respected frog researcher

8:03

and science communicator. His

8:06

museum research featured in books,

8:08

public programs and many international

8:10

TV series, including David

8:12

Attenborough's Life on Earth. Attenborough

8:15

also captured Jim Galing's astonishing

8:18

work on Ediacaran fossils, so

8:20

significant that a new age, the Ediacaran

8:22

period, was added to a charter of

8:25

Life on Earth, earlier

8:27

the Lecambrian. As

8:29

a direct result, the Ediacaran trail

8:31

now runs through the Flinders Ranges,

8:34

bringing tourists from other countries and

8:36

researchers from bodies as influential as

8:38

NASA. I

8:40

have personal experience of this. Perverting

8:43

my field guide to tracks and traces

8:45

of Australian animals, I had free

8:47

access to the museum's collections. How

8:50

else do you get thoroughness in specimens? That

8:53

material has been used by interstate

8:55

museums, workshops, other books, and

8:58

even the Lindy Chamberlain trials, so

9:00

the museum links with the public have been wide.

9:04

Management's claim that the museum has

9:06

hardly changed in the last 30 years

9:08

is untrue. There have

9:10

been eight new or refurbished

9:12

galleries, including Aboriginal and Pacific

9:14

cultures, Opals and Ediacra,

9:17

Biodiversity, and the

9:19

Polar Exhibit featuring artifacts of Sir

9:21

Douglas Mawson, all apparently

9:23

now not worthy of recognition

9:25

or continuation. Management

9:28

argues that the museum needs to

9:30

attract more people, but its website

9:32

bursts with claims that it's already

9:34

one of the most visited museums

9:36

in Australia, with a dedicated

9:39

team of scientists and anthropologists who

9:41

conduct natural history and cultural research,

9:44

publishing their discoveries in peer-reviewed

9:46

national and international journals, book

9:48

chapters, and scholarly books, a

9:50

global leader in research about

9:52

Opal and Copper, where research

9:54

in biological sciences at the

9:56

South Australia Museum is unparalleled

9:58

in the world. world. Exactly.

10:02

Something is very wrong here and is

10:04

not the website. Professor

10:06

Rob Morrison of Flinders University, he

10:08

too signed the public statement. And

10:11

here's the new CEO of the museum

10:14

on ABC Local Radio in Adelaide. The

10:16

SA Museum Chief Executive, Dr David Gamestur joins

10:19

us. What are you looking to do for

10:21

our museum, David? We remember taking a reimagining,

10:24

we're all in this sort of post pandemic

10:26

world, all kind of rebooting, getting our businesses

10:28

back up to speed. And this is the

10:30

time to reset and think about the future.

10:32

And I think everybody's doing that. And we're

10:35

thinking about, well, what does that museum look

10:37

like in 10, 20, 30 years? You know,

10:39

the museum hasn't changed very much in a very

10:42

long time. You know, the Egyptian room was designed

10:44

in the 1940s. And you're

10:47

looking at a 1940s vision of ancient

10:49

Egypt, being transformations in technology. And

10:52

the way in which people engage with knowledge

10:54

and culture and natural history is very, very

10:56

different today as it was before.

10:58

And it will be very different in the

11:01

future. So it's really about thinking about the

11:03

future experience for our visitors and how they

11:05

engage and how they digest information and how

11:07

we can help people better. So does

11:09

that mean more interactivity? Because that seems to be

11:12

the way that museums are going. Yeah,

11:14

I mean, there's a whole range of new technologies

11:16

which enable that to happen and get people better

11:18

in the zone as it were, to understand

11:21

changes in biodiversity, the climate

11:23

crisis or whatever it is, or understanding

11:26

cultures better. If you come to the

11:28

museum today, you wouldn't know that there's

11:30

been huge advances in technology. We do

11:32

have the lion's tail occasionally flipped, I

11:34

think, which someone says, that's just a

11:36

grand drill by surprise. So does that

11:39

mean the mummy's going to sit up

11:41

at one point with laser eyes? David?

11:44

We've got a lot of very, very loved

11:46

exhibits. It's not really worrying about too much

11:48

about them. We want to go through a

11:50

process that's public engagement and consultation in the

11:53

next few weeks and months. We

11:55

want to ask people what they think, what

11:57

they want, how they want to consume information.

12:00

We will explore whether we need to

12:02

retain certain features or not. So this

12:04

is about the big picture, being able

12:06

to bring people into an immersive experience

12:09

about the past, about the present and the future.

12:11

The critical thing is that we can make

12:14

it accessible to everyone. That's

12:16

absolutely fundamental. South

12:18

Australia Museum director Dr David Gamester on

12:20

Adelaide Local Radio a few days ago.

12:23

And on Friday, the South Australian

12:25

Premier announced that those changes and

12:28

public consultations will be put on

12:30

hold, paused. We shall

12:32

keep an eye on this and let them know what's likely to

12:34

happen next. It's the real

12:37

tension between a museum or other

12:39

institution as mainly a showcase or

12:41

maybe one with a strong commitment

12:44

to scientific investigations of the challenges

12:46

Australia now confronts. The science

12:48

show on our end. And

12:52

so to Tasmania, where a natural history

12:55

study of an endangered mammal shows how

12:57

often a real benefit for us may

12:59

result. Peter Hatfield reports.

13:03

So what I'm doing here is I'm just transferring

13:05

Julie, our Tasmanian devil,

13:07

into the sack. What I'm going to

13:09

do is I'm going to go one, two, three, tip. And so

13:11

we're going to tip the trap a little bit. And

13:14

then we're going to go one, two, three, up. Because

13:16

what we want to do is we want to get the Tasmanian devil

13:19

into the bag, but without hitting the ground or

13:21

anything like that. OK. On

13:23

a warm day in the north of

13:25

Tasmania, Dr. Elise Ringwald is doing something

13:27

that's become a routine four times a

13:30

year, catching Tasmanian devils.

13:33

Trapping and monitoring these animals is part

13:35

of a program that's been going on

13:38

for two decades to monitor numbers and

13:40

health. The project

13:42

is run by Dr. Rodrigo Hamade

13:44

at the University of Tasmania. He

13:47

remembers how badly the Tasmanian devil

13:49

was in peril when the program

13:51

began. When I started doing my

13:53

research on Tasmanian devils as a postgraduate student, I

13:55

was very pessimistic. In fact, we all thought the

13:58

DCCs were going to be a big deal. could

14:00

drive this species to extinction. The way

14:02

the populations were declining were absolutely dramatic.

14:05

And then he says, something remarkable

14:07

happened. I still remember the first

14:09

time that I saw this female with the achievement

14:12

to disappear, I remember scanning that female 50 times

14:14

just to make sure that it was the same animal. You couldn't

14:16

believe it. I couldn't believe it. I

14:19

just had goosebumps all around. I still have

14:21

goosebumps when I talk about it because it

14:23

was an incredible moment. I was just jumping

14:26

in the bush up and down thinking like how

14:28

you did it. It's the same animal. I could

14:30

recognize her. This happened for the first time

14:32

in 2009, I think. And

14:34

2010, 11, 12 was when I

14:36

saw by then I've seen half a dozen. Now we've

14:39

seen more than 50. These

14:41

are animals that develop tumor. We

14:43

get the tumor measurements. We get samples. And we

14:46

do these every three months. And

14:48

then we went there three months later. And then

14:50

we caught the same female. And there was no

14:52

tumor. And

14:54

that was the moment that we thought, hang on a minute.

14:56

This shouldn't happen. It was a horrible

14:59

thing to go through to see that we could

15:01

lose these species. And suddenly you

15:03

see them coming back. Just

15:06

looking to see if she's got any

15:09

kind of injury or facial tumor

15:11

or something in the gum. She

15:14

looks quite healthy. So now

15:16

what we're going to be doing is we're going to open the

15:19

mouth up. And

15:21

then Colin here has got a stick. And so what he's going

15:23

to do with the stick is just to move the tongue out

15:25

of the way. And the reason why that was in that is

15:27

when you see underneath the tongue to see if it's got any

15:29

facial tumors or anything like that. Very

15:34

reluctant to open the mouth there. There

15:36

we go. We're

15:39

all glued into the mouth. The

15:44

turnaround in the fortunes of the Tasmanian

15:46

devil would be a headline in itself.

15:48

But there's more. The evolutionary

15:51

battle between the devils and the

15:53

disease has created a cancer that

15:55

adapts and spreads like a virus,

15:58

giving researchers like Hamiday. valuable

16:00

insights into the nature of

16:02

cancer itself. And then

16:05

we saw other individuals in which the

16:07

tumors were becoming smaller and smaller in

16:09

time and that's why they were surviving

16:11

for so long. In a few cases,

16:13

the tumors completely disappeared and in

16:16

other cases, the tumor didn't disappear but regressed

16:18

in size. Now this happens in every 100,000

16:20

cases in humans. It

16:23

is thought. But we don't understand

16:25

very much why and how it happens. Very

16:28

very few cases, not a lot of information about it.

16:30

So one of the things we're studying is

16:32

the genetic mechanisms for this to

16:34

occur and we have identified a

16:36

couple of genes. One particularly, that

16:38

one is highly expressed, results in

16:41

tumor regression. And that only occurred

16:43

for those animals that regressed tumors,

16:45

not for a bunch of other animals that didn't

16:47

regress tumors and has the

16:49

same analog response in humans. So

16:52

we are trying to pinpoint what

16:54

are the genetic pathways or genetic mechanisms

16:56

that allow hosts to resist cancer. And

16:58

this has occurred only because this cancer

17:01

is infectious because animals have had generations

17:03

of exposure to this disease and the

17:05

only way to get out of it

17:08

is by learning to live with it.

17:12

The evolution of cancer occurs within

17:14

the life expectancy of hosts

17:16

because cancer dies when the

17:18

host dies. So that

17:21

has been the story of cancer throughout

17:23

life and Earth. And here we have

17:25

a very very interesting situation in which

17:27

cancer has managed to overcome

17:31

the life expectancy of a host by

17:33

becoming infectious. And

17:36

page zero, this female devil that in

17:38

the late 1980s developed this cancer. Essentially

17:41

that tumor cell, that

17:43

cell line is still present throughout

17:45

Tasmania. So this cancer became immortal

17:48

by allowing itself to jump from host

17:50

to host and surviving the

17:52

death of the first individual. The very

17:54

interesting thing is that this is not

17:57

a virus, this is not a parasite,

17:59

this is cancer. So

18:01

we have never seen that in any

18:03

other cancer system or model system that

18:05

the tumors are able to fine tune

18:07

or find that sweet spot for a

18:10

system in the population. There is no

18:12

viral agent here. We're talking about a

18:14

tumor cell passed on from one individual

18:16

to the other. That shouldn't happen. It's

18:19

groundbreaking stuff, isn't it? It's

18:21

fascinating. This is why a lot of cancer

18:23

biologists and oncologists now are quite interested in

18:25

transplanting devils because it is something

18:28

that shouldn't happen. But because cancers

18:30

become essentially mortal and from

18:32

generation to generation, we can

18:35

identify evolutionary pathways that

18:37

have allowed the Tasmanian devil to survive

18:39

with cancer. And we're trying to translate

18:41

that information into cancer region in humans,

18:43

of course. We've been

18:45

working with cancer biologists and oncologists over

18:48

the last eight years probably. I am

18:50

part of an international associated lab dedicated

18:53

to study cancer ecology and evolution with

18:55

the CNRS in France and

18:57

Deakin University and we've also worked with

18:59

other cancer labs in the US. Another

19:01

thing that have implications for human cancer

19:04

is to try to understand specific genes

19:06

and genetic pathways that are involved in

19:08

resistance to cancer or tolerance to cancer.

19:11

So try to identify those genetic

19:13

mechanisms and pathways and try

19:15

to make analog research on humans and

19:18

try to understand what are the genes

19:20

and what are the pathways that are

19:22

involved in cancer suppression. I'm

19:25

just picking him up with my right hand as well

19:27

as just gently moving

19:30

the hessian sucker over the top and his little

19:32

heads out of the bag and he's

19:34

staying there and he's looking around. His little

19:36

nose is going to see where he can go. His

19:39

ears are right up and

19:41

he's gone off to the left really, really

19:43

fast and into the fence. After

19:47

almost 20 years of research, we're in a position

19:49

that we can start putting the pieces together and

19:51

say here we have a species

19:53

that maybe has learned throughout

19:56

its evolutionary history to circumvent cancer.

20:00

ranging consequences for the way we

20:02

perceive cancer. Nowadays, cancer, we don't consider it

20:04

as a life sentence. You know, in the

20:06

past 20, 30 years ago, someone would have

20:08

been diagnosed with cancer and it was almost

20:10

like this is it. Now

20:12

there's so many more things we need

20:14

to consider and that we can do

20:16

when a cancer is diagnosed. But to

20:18

me, the most important type of message

20:20

of these 20 years of research into

20:22

Smithsonian Devils is cancer will

20:25

happen. In some cases, I can tell reputation.

20:27

We can avoid cancer. What we

20:29

can do is to learn to live with it. And

20:32

that's exactly what Tasmanian Devils are doing. For

20:34

the science show, I'm Peter Hadfield in

20:37

Tasmania. ["The Star-Spangled Banner"]

20:49

Dark matter, one of the cosmic

20:51

mysteries, it's shaping the universe

20:53

by altering the passage of planets and

20:55

stars. But with no idea what

20:57

it's made of. And at

21:00

Melbourne University, the Science Gallery, a

21:02

kind of museum display, has just

21:04

ended a dark exhibition. Ryan

21:07

Jeffries is the gallery director. Dark

21:09

matter, of course, was the subject of your

21:11

last major exhibition. And

21:13

with something so mysterious, what

21:15

does it mean, says the public. Did they

21:17

turn up? They certainly

21:20

did. It was one of our most

21:22

attended exhibitions at Science Gallery at the

21:24

University of Melbourne. And

21:26

we had thousands of people turn up.

21:28

I think there's something universally

21:31

tantalising and interesting around

21:33

this idea of dark

21:35

matter. What is that 90%

21:37

plus of the universe? And

21:41

I think it really puts us as

21:43

humans in our place as well. It's

21:46

such this grand idea. And

21:48

the collision of art and science

21:50

allowed a really interesting entry point for

21:53

people, I think. But that's the worry.

21:55

How do you make an exhibition and an

21:58

event out of something You

22:00

can't see, you can't touch, you don't know whether

22:02

it exists, you don't know in any

22:04

way what it is. Exactly

22:07

and that was the tagline of the

22:09

exhibition, Unseen and Unknown.

22:12

And the way we did that

22:14

was through collaboration. And so the

22:16

exhibition was a major collaboration with

22:18

Arts at CERN, an Australian

22:20

first, and then a local collaboration with

22:23

the ARC Centre of Excellence for Dark

22:25

Matter. When you say CERN you mean

22:27

the Swiss place where they

22:29

crunch small particles at high speed?

22:32

Yes, the CERN. And I

22:34

had the opportunity to go there and it

22:36

was really the start of this journey with

22:38

this exhibition was going to CERN for one

22:40

of their open days, going

22:42

down into the Large Hedron

22:45

Collider and basically having

22:47

a science nerd moment, it's just

22:49

phenomenal. The scale of that and

22:51

the abstractness of course. By

22:53

collaborating with CERN with the Centre

22:55

of Excellence really allowed us to

22:58

tap into that scientific expertise.

23:00

People who really understand this.

23:03

And the opportunity then to

23:05

connect many of those scientists

23:07

to artists and creatives and

23:10

seeing what kind of collaborative outcomes

23:12

emerge around this idea of what

23:15

is dark matter. The

23:17

Arts at CERN residency program

23:19

is really internationally renowned. So

23:21

it's an opportunity for artists

23:24

to go to CERN to meet some

23:26

of the scientists, experience some of the

23:28

science itself and then develop their

23:30

own kind of creative outcomes. And

23:32

so the Science Gallery

23:34

exhibition included some of those outcomes.

23:37

One of the most impressive

23:40

is a work by a Korean

23:43

artist, Yoon-Chul Kim, called

23:45

Chroma. And it's

23:47

essentially this subatomic

23:50

particle detector. And

23:53

so much of the universe

23:55

we can't see but it's

23:57

passing through us. And so... this

24:00

large kinetic sculpture that then

24:02

creatively detects these particles moving

24:05

through us all the time

24:07

and then reacts with movement

24:09

and colour depending on those

24:12

particles. Still in the gallery

24:14

now until June and it's

24:16

just amazing. It's an

24:18

incredible work. Ryan Jefferies and more from

24:21

him soon on the concept of science

24:23

galleries plus their plans now

24:25

meet Dr Grace Lawrence formerly at

24:28

Swinburne University who's won a place

24:30

at UCL following her own work

24:32

on the dark stuff. Cosmo

24:34

particles to do with dark matter perhaps?

24:37

Right on the money yes specifically

24:39

dark matter and how astrophysics and

24:41

particle physics can work together to

24:43

discover it. And of course you

24:45

come from Melbourne and here is one

24:47

of the leading experiments with all sorts

24:49

of installations underground to see if they

24:51

can capture what in particular

24:53

they're looking for. Specifically WIMP dark

24:56

matter so they're searching for

24:58

these weakly interacting massive particles

25:00

using the SABRE experiment and

25:02

of course quite interestingly burrowing

25:04

underground to search the cosmos.

25:07

Because these particles will go through the

25:09

ground without noticing and will

25:12

be collectible down there separated from all

25:14

the other things that are bombarding us.

25:16

Yes absolutely so those sort of few

25:18

kilometres of rock you'd hope not to

25:20

be claustrophobic but they work wonders to

25:23

block cosmic rays and all sorts of

25:25

radiation that might contaminate our signal and

25:27

give us the best chance to actually

25:29

see dark matter. Between ourselves have

25:31

they found anything yet? Not

25:33

that I've been told. And

25:37

when they do find something showing

25:39

what 85% of the universe is made

25:41

of that they can't find what

25:44

do you think the reaction around the world would be? A huge

25:47

combination of relief, celebration,

25:50

hopefully some champagne and definitely

25:53

a Nobel Prize. I

25:55

see is that important? Hugely so. So

25:57

you've gone to London you've won yourself. place

26:00

at UCL which is University College

26:02

London and famous for Jeremy Bentham

26:04

is one of my dear friends.

26:07

And of course if listeners haven't heard of

26:09

him, he's been dead for quite some time

26:12

but his stuffed body still attends council

26:14

meetings. But UCL is a wonderful place

26:16

for all sorts of aspects of science

26:18

not least your own physics. How are

26:21

you getting on there? I'm

26:23

absolutely loving it. It is

26:25

a vibrant, welcoming research community

26:27

and I got to just dive

26:30

straight into wonderful simulations and wonderful

26:32

science discussions and I'm absolutely loving

26:34

it there. And what

26:36

is their theory? Because you see

26:38

a great number of different organisations

26:41

have got a view. I broadcast one

26:43

not terribly long ago that Dark

26:45

Matter is made of something actually

26:48

named after a laundry detergent. What

26:50

was it called? That would be the

26:52

Axion. Axion's indeed an American

26:55

Nobel Prize winner. I thought it was a

26:57

good fun to suggest. Now is

26:59

it quite respectable to think that Dark

27:01

Matter may be made up of any

27:04

number of different small particles?

27:07

I think it would be entirely reasonable. We

27:09

sort of have to start somewhere so our

27:12

theoreticians come up with these models and

27:14

we go searching for them but Dark

27:16

Matter was postulated because of

27:18

the broader sex that we observe

27:20

it having on the universe. And

27:22

so it's entirely possible that there

27:25

could be some combination of particles

27:27

and a six producing that be

27:29

it WIMPs, Axions, primordial black holes.

27:31

There's a swathe of options. Primordial

27:35

black holes. In other words, ones floating around that

27:37

you don't particularly notice and there could be zillions

27:39

of those and add them all up and the

27:41

mess is extraordinary. Yes, yes. And to

27:43

think that black holes could be zooming around

27:45

us is an almost frightening thought because we

27:47

tend to think of black holes as these

27:49

sort of star eating monsters. But

27:51

these ones are incredibly small, the size

27:54

of a marble, but with huge masses

27:56

and they're a very real possibility and

27:58

people within Australian institutions. are searching

28:00

for them. I would have

28:02

thought they'd be quite easy to find. Well,

28:05

unfortunately nothing in astrophysics seems easy

28:07

to find. But in this particular

28:09

case they're searching for a sort

28:11

of lensing event. So the light

28:13

coming from our stars between yourself

28:16

and this primordial black hole is

28:18

getting bent by the intense gravity.

28:21

And that's one of the experiments in fact

28:23

done successfully on the west coast of Australia

28:26

to prove Einstein right. Indeed there

28:28

was an event – was

28:31

it an eclipse? Suggesting

28:33

that you would see light in

28:36

a particular way because of its passing around

28:38

a gigantic body and the light would be

28:40

bent in 1919 and in the mid-20s. That's

28:45

what, turn it around for Einstein. Yes,

28:47

and so that technique was proposed

28:49

then for something as dare I

28:51

say simple as an eclipse. And

28:53

it's continued to evolve so much so

28:56

that we can search for these marble-sized

28:58

primordial black holes for the way that

29:00

they bend this stellar light. We need

29:03

incredible sensitivity but with telescopes like we

29:05

have from Hawaii and Chile we're reaching

29:07

those levels of sensitivity where we can

29:09

find them. And what line

29:12

are you taking in your research? I'm

29:14

slightly more on the theory and

29:17

simulation side. So my research uses

29:19

these wonderful supercomputer simulations of galaxies

29:21

like our own Milky Way and

29:24

I'm using them to see where dark

29:26

matter is distributed within our galaxy and

29:28

how it got there through its sort

29:30

of formation history. And then

29:32

once I know where it is I can use

29:35

that to make predictions about how we might detect

29:37

it on Earth and what those signals might look

29:39

like if we did. You were

29:41

mentioning before about the kind of reaction there would

29:43

be if there was

29:46

actually a discovery of these

29:48

mysterious elements making the

29:50

dark matter. We're mourning a couple

29:52

of weeks ago the passing of

29:54

Peter Higgs at the age

29:56

of 94, the person behind

29:58

the Higgs boson. And

30:01

it's quite interesting that even though he was

30:03

something of a recluse in many ways, especially

30:05

as far as the media were concerned, that

30:07

he is being mourned internationally. Are you surprised?

30:10

No, not at all. I didn't have the fortune

30:12

to meet him in person during his life, but

30:14

I'd heard that he was an incredibly generous and

30:17

interest with his students and his colleagues. And what

30:19

he offered the world with the Higgs boson

30:21

changed our understanding of physics. And so I

30:23

think it's only right that he'd be mourned

30:25

in that way. They've actually

30:27

identified them a few years ago and

30:30

there were all sorts of bits, I

30:32

think, of science ministers offering bottles of

30:35

champagne in Britain. They were the team

30:37

that maybe found them or could interpret

30:39

what a boson was supposed to be.

30:42

But is it the case that rather

30:45

like dark matter may solve the problem, a

30:47

massive one of the nature of the universe,

30:49

that the Higgs boson might

30:51

explain the ways in which mass,

30:54

in other words, a physical presence

30:57

can be realized even

31:00

when you think there's nothing there? It's

31:02

a very interesting question and one I'm

31:04

afraid I don't probably have a compelling

31:06

answer to. Certainly

31:09

creating something from genuine nothing remains

31:11

a mystery. We understand so much

31:13

about those first few seconds or

31:16

less than seconds after the Big

31:18

Bang, but not the moment itself.

31:20

So I think you've just written

31:22

a PhD thesis within that

31:25

question. I

31:27

should be so lucky. But thank you very much. Congratulations

31:30

on winning this prize. Thank you so much. It's

31:32

a pleasure to be here. Dr Grace Lawrence,

31:34

one of our brilliant women over there at

31:36

the University College London, having done her PhD

31:39

with Alan Duffy in Melbourne. And

31:41

so to what may seem a bit

31:43

of rivalry in physics, this time with

31:45

quantum computing. In Australia,

31:47

as former Australian of the year,

31:50

Michelle Simmons recounted in her recent

31:52

Boyer lectures how they like to

31:54

pick up single atoms in silicon

31:57

as a basis for computing. As

32:00

Professor of Physics and Astronomy, Eric

32:03

Hudson explains, they use different methods.

32:06

The difference is in

32:08

how you get those individual atoms to

32:11

be in position and to be able

32:13

to manipulate them. We use what

32:15

are called trapped ion systems. So

32:18

we configure some electrodes inside of

32:20

a vacuum chamber. We apply electric

32:22

fields to those electrodes and use

32:24

that to trap the ions in

32:26

space. In some

32:28

sense, it's very similar to the

32:30

silicon approach in that there are

32:32

electric fields of these crystals holding

32:34

effectively electrons or nuclei in place.

32:37

It's just that instead of using silicon

32:39

substrate, we're using these electrodes.

32:42

A potential advantage is

32:44

that the atoms are then held in

32:46

vacuum, so they're not being bothered by

32:48

any other things. The substrate, whereas in

32:51

the silicon, there can be crystal

32:53

effects. Now, the other side of

32:55

that coin is that

32:58

our systems are big and manmade and

33:00

kind of bulky to trap these atoms,

33:02

whereas if you can do it in

33:04

silicon, then you have the atomic cage,

33:06

if you will, trapping for you. So

33:08

you could be much smaller and maybe

33:10

more scalable. And ways

33:13

in which that, in fact, codes for

33:15

whatever you want, like transistors might, which

33:18

is also a mysterious thing to some of

33:20

us. You have a system which can then

33:22

be so much more powerful than conventional computers.

33:25

When it comes to all these different

33:27

systems around the world approaching in different

33:29

ways, have they all reached

33:32

inside of the finishing line? It

33:35

depends on where you put the finishing line. I

33:37

would say the finishing line

33:39

that most of us are pushing for

33:41

right now are to get

33:43

to systems that are undeniably in

33:46

the quantum regime. And what I mean

33:48

by that are systems

33:50

that have enough quantum bits

33:52

or qubits that you

33:55

cannot, in any conceivable

33:57

way, simulate what they would do on

33:59

the quantum system. a classical computer. A

34:02

number of years ago some people claimed to be

34:04

in that regime and then the classical simulation caught

34:06

up with them. But with the

34:08

scaling of the problem, by the time

34:10

you get to let's say a hundred

34:12

or maybe two hundred of these quantum

34:14

bits, these qubits fully controlled,

34:16

there's just no conceivable way

34:19

that you can simulate this

34:21

classically. And so most

34:23

of the systems are getting very close to

34:25

that finish line right now. Some people have

34:27

that number of qubits but don't

34:29

quite have the control. Others have the

34:31

control but not quite that many qubits. So I

34:33

think in the next, I would

34:35

say two years or so we're

34:37

going to move into that fully

34:39

quantum regime. Now the

34:42

finish line that many people may think

34:44

of as using some Shor's algorithm

34:46

to break encryption or simulating

34:48

molecular structure for solving chemical

34:50

problems on a quantum computer,

34:53

that is further away. Is that a

34:55

10-year problem or a 30-year problem? I

34:58

don't think anyone knows. It requires technology that we

35:00

don't really have right now. We think we know

35:02

how to build it. So it's an adventure. Indeed

35:06

and the suggestion is that we all

35:08

have a picture of the computer on

35:10

your desk over there. We can have

35:12

an object that we can call a

35:14

computer. There's going to be a quantum

35:16

one and will that be something that

35:18

you can buy or your firm can

35:20

via the cloud have access to? And

35:23

Michelle Simmons says perhaps 10 years

35:25

that might be possible. In some

35:27

sense that already exists. So there

35:29

are many companies that will sell

35:31

you a quantum computer. They will

35:33

also sell you cloud access to

35:36

that quantum computer right now. So that's

35:38

certainly the model that I think is

35:40

the foreseeable one. The quantum computers right

35:42

now are at the stage where they're

35:44

mostly learning devices. So if you have

35:46

a company and you think that hey

35:48

some day quantum computing could solve some

35:50

important problems for us, we need

35:52

to train ourselves how to use them, how to interface

35:54

with them, how to think about quantum algorithms. People

35:57

are doing that now. In the next couple of years

35:59

those things as I said, will be

36:01

completely in the quantum regime. And

36:03

so there'll be a bigger draw to access

36:06

them. But yeah, they'll be on the cloud.

36:08

They're not going to be in your pocket

36:10

anytime soon. Big pocket, yeah. But you described

36:12

your own approach here at UCLA. And

36:15

what about your own personal line, apart

36:17

from running a big department with astronomy

36:19

attached? What is your favorite part in

36:21

this scheme? So the thing that we

36:24

work on, this is actually a really

36:26

interesting question, I think, what is the

36:28

role of an academic when

36:30

you have an industry that has popped

36:32

up? Companies investing 100x

36:35

academics spend on research. They have

36:37

100x the number of people. What

36:40

should a poor professor do to help

36:42

out? And it's an interesting

36:44

place we're in, in the quantum field. And

36:47

that is, there's still much basic research to

36:49

be done. But we can't actually

36:51

do that basic research without the technology

36:53

of industry. And so the

36:55

field, in some ways, I would say has been

36:57

slowed by the silodeness

37:00

that we have in the way we do science

37:03

in the world today. There's industry, there's government, there's

37:05

academia. And although there

37:07

are certainly counter examples, the interplay

37:09

between those three is not what

37:11

it should be. So

37:13

you have industry who can't really

37:16

do basic research, because they have

37:18

shareholders or investors, and they

37:20

have timelines they have to hit. You

37:22

have academics who don't have the technology

37:25

to really do all of the basic

37:27

research. And so what we do

37:29

here, we try to work on the

37:32

basic research ideas that could make all

37:34

this much, much easier. But they're a

37:36

little too wacky or a little too

37:38

crazy to convince investors or shareholders to

37:40

allow you to do. That's

37:42

sort of one thing. And then the other

37:44

thing we've done is establishing this research park

37:46

near campus. The idea is

37:48

that we're going to have academics and

37:50

industry working together onto the same roof.

37:53

And part of that is a purely human

37:55

one. When you go to work in the

37:57

same building, you get the same cafeteria. with

38:00

someone, then you really become peers and

38:02

you start communicating, talking over lunch, over

38:04

coffee, and we hope to

38:06

break down that silo with the few

38:09

choice industry partners to really facilitate the

38:11

basic research transfer out of academia to

38:13

industry, but then also transfer the technology

38:16

of industry into academia so that we

38:18

can help with the basic research problems.

38:21

So, it's very exciting. You've actually bought

38:23

Shopping Mal, where you've got this kind

38:25

of... is it set up yet or

38:27

is it going to be set up

38:29

pretty soon? So, it is in the

38:31

process of being set up for research.

38:34

It's about two years away

38:36

from opening labs. The building

38:38

itself has been renovated on

38:40

the exterior, all the sort

38:42

of seismic things have been brought up to

38:44

code, and we're at the point now of

38:47

putting where's the drywall going to go to

38:49

define the labs, and that takes about a

38:51

year or two. And which parts

38:53

of industry do you think might join you there? Within

38:56

the research part, there's going to be

38:58

work on immunology, which I'm not involved

39:00

in, and then also work in quantum.

39:02

So we are very fortunate that

39:04

a company here in Los Angeles

39:06

called HRL, used to be Hughes

39:08

Research Lab, will be our

39:11

first anchor tenant in this building.

39:13

They work on your silicon spin

39:15

qubits. So, they'll be establishing

39:17

a research effort that's both academic and

39:19

industry around that, and we're working up

39:21

with some other partners who prefer not

39:24

to be named right now. I'm

39:26

bringing in other technologies. Now I

39:28

did mention to you before the

39:30

amazing earnings of Cambridge in Britain.

39:32

Their park has been superbly successful

39:34

because of this proximity

39:36

of people working together. And

39:39

that synergy is something you're surprised in

39:41

some ways not to see ubiquitously because

39:44

the examples are being so convincing. So

39:46

you don't have to live in hope,

39:48

there are examples. Yeah, I know that

39:50

we've certainly looked to those guys with

39:52

a bit of envy and for inspiration. A

39:55

lot of it is just human nature. We

39:58

end up being physically siloed and therefore... leads

40:00

to intellectual sallowing. And

40:02

you know by getting under the same roof,

40:04

working together, it creates the motivation for the

40:06

science. And so then when the attorneys get

40:08

involved and there's weird questions about IP, people

40:10

figure them out. They don't let that stop

40:13

them anymore. And so that's really what the

40:15

hub is about. We hope it will drive

40:17

that sort of economic growth for

40:19

Southern California. I mean we have the companies here,

40:21

we have the academics here, so we just have

40:23

to figure out how to work together. Good

40:26

luck. Thank you. I'll be back in two years. Sounds

40:28

great. I look forward to hosting you there. I

40:30

shall be there. Eric Hadsson, Professor

40:32

of Physics and Astronomy at the University of

40:35

California Los Angeles. And so

40:37

to a final visit to the Rockies and

40:39

the Denver Botanic Garden, where it's a bit

40:41

like a museum that we started with in

40:43

South Australia, but lots of interaction with the

40:46

public outside. My host

40:48

this time is Dr. Alba, Christine

40:50

Alba. Alba. Alba. Which

40:53

means dawn or light in Latin. And

40:57

lots of plant names have Alba in

40:59

them. Such as? Melalotis Alba

41:02

is a white sweet clover. So

41:05

the Alba denotes that it's white. So

41:07

Christine, you have a classical education. Well,

41:10

you just learn a little bit of that

41:12

botanical Latin as you go. It helps you

41:14

to learn characteristics about the

41:16

plants, which helps them stick in your

41:18

mind when you're learning them. I often

41:21

wonder how botanists like yourself remember

41:23

all that. All I can remember

41:25

is cannabis sativa and

41:28

mimosa pudica. Yes.

41:30

Good. Good job. Mimosa you can

41:32

actually touch and it responds and curls

41:35

up. Yes. As if it's got

41:37

a nervous system. Yes. Yes. I think that's

41:39

called a sigmonastic response. If

41:41

I remember correctly from intro

41:44

botany. Yes. That's

41:46

lovely. Now going first to

41:48

what you're working on in terms of

41:50

fire around, what's it

41:52

like in this district, this area,

41:55

because it's obviously affected by drought,

41:57

rainfall and all the rest of

41:59

it. But as I look around

42:01

me now, covered in snow, one gets the

42:03

impression there's plenty of water. Yes, that's

42:05

true. But we are having regionally

42:08

across Colorado and across the

42:10

southwestern U.S. there is a

42:13

trend towards increasing temperatures as

42:16

well as what's referred to as

42:18

a repackaging of rain events. And

42:22

so it's not just the overall amount

42:24

of rain that comes into a system

42:26

over the growing season, for example, but

42:28

how it's packaged. So if

42:30

you get large, longer amounts

42:32

of rain that have a chance

42:34

to kind of really soak into the soil,

42:36

that's very different than a short, quick storm

42:39

that comes through. So

42:41

it's a little bit more

42:43

difficult to predict long-term changes

42:46

regionally in precipitation than in

42:48

temperature. The temperature is

42:50

predicted to kind of march up

42:52

regionally, whereas the rain events are

42:55

predicted to change, maybe

42:57

increase in some regions and decrease in

42:59

other regions. So how are you following

43:01

that up for your work? I make use

43:03

of just that knowledge that's being

43:05

created by climate change forecasters

43:08

just to inform my understanding of

43:10

what's happening in the system. But

43:13

really what I focus on is

43:15

when a fire event does happen,

43:17

coming in and actually measuring the

43:19

response of the plant community to

43:21

that fire event. So

43:23

most recently, we have a lot

43:26

of open space around Colorado. So

43:28

we're in a very urban context

43:30

here in Denver, but

43:32

you don't have to go very far

43:34

outside of the city to start getting

43:37

into some really beautiful open space properties.

43:40

So for example, in Boulder, Colorado,

43:42

which is just about 35 minutes from here,

43:44

there was quite a large fire that burned

43:46

through in 2020. It's called

43:49

the Calwood Fire. That

43:51

happened just north of Boulder on some Boulder

43:54

County Parks and open space land. And

43:56

so they were really interested in knowing

43:59

how their management. management of some

44:01

invasive grasses that are there,

44:04

their management leading up to the fire, how

44:06

did those decisions surrounding removing the

44:08

invasive grasses with a new herbicide

44:10

interact with the fire that came

44:13

through? So it's not

44:15

just about understanding that pulse

44:17

disturbance or perturbation by the

44:19

fire event, but also folding

44:22

in that management aspect of

44:24

it to understand how

44:26

both of those things, the management

44:28

and the fire, shaped the plant

44:30

community post-fire. Indeed, of

44:32

course in Australia there are many plants which

44:35

are responsive to fire and in fact various

44:37

things are triggered by it and

44:40

Kingsley Dixon, as a scientist from

44:42

Western Australia, found out

44:44

what the ingredient is in

44:46

smoke, which does that sort

44:48

of thing. So do you have fire adapted

44:50

plants here as well in this district? Yes,

44:53

there are fire adapted plants. The area

44:55

that I was just talking about where

44:57

we did our work was grassland and

45:00

there are plants that

45:02

come in after fire, these kind of

45:05

showy flowering plants, they're

45:07

called forbs and they're

45:09

subdominant. So in these grasslands you get

45:11

perennial grasses that are kind of the

45:13

dominant type of plant that's there, but

45:16

then if a fire burns through it

45:19

can burn back a lot of the

45:21

thatch and a lot of the litter

45:23

and biomass that's being created by those

45:26

dominant plants and it gives a little

45:28

window of opportunity, high nutrient availability, good

45:30

resource availability for these showy kind of

45:32

flowering plants to come in. So

45:35

that's one example of how fire

45:37

can reset or change the system,

45:39

which gives a flush of biodiversity

45:41

that comes in. If

45:43

you go up in elevation into

45:45

some of the coniferous forest, there

45:48

are pine species that their cones

45:50

only open when they're exposed

45:52

to fire. So they

45:54

require that fire event to set

45:57

seed basically. In general, do

45:59

you find that... the landscape is

46:01

adjusted to the fires and

46:03

to the changes in temperature so far

46:06

anyway? I would say that's an area

46:08

of ongoing research. So there's a fire

46:10

regime is what it's called that is

46:13

considered to be historically typical for

46:15

a given area. So

46:17

the fire regime incorporates things like

46:19

the frequency of the fire, you

46:21

know, how many years on average

46:24

is there between a fire event? How

46:26

intense is the fire? Of course in

46:28

California it's been horrendous. So the

46:30

fire regimes are probably starting

46:32

to move outside their historic

46:35

norms. And again, you need

46:37

kind of long term data to build that picture

46:39

in order to get to the

46:41

point where you build a lot of confidence

46:43

where you can say, okay, we are definitely

46:45

outside of the historic norm that these plant

46:48

and animal communities have evolved under. So

46:50

that's the crux, like that's the question that

46:53

needs to be answered is whether the fires

46:55

are for example, getting much more frequent than

46:57

they used to be. That is

46:59

the case, for example, in the Great Basin

47:01

region of the Western US, we

47:04

are losing sagebrush step in

47:06

that area across vast acreages

47:08

because the fire regime has

47:10

changed so drastically due

47:13

to the introduction of a

47:15

non-native invasive grass called cheatgrass.

47:18

So this is probably one of the best studied systems

47:20

for this kind of question. And

47:22

what has happened is that grass

47:24

has altered the fire regime to

47:27

the extent that the native sagebrush

47:29

and perennial grasses cannot recover in

47:31

between fire events. Let's

47:34

bring you off the landscape and into the

47:36

cities and the urban area. What are you

47:38

doing there? Yeah, I love

47:40

the work that we're doing in the

47:43

urban context. So at the Botanic Gardens,

47:45

we have a mission to create information

47:47

and knowledge that's really relevant

47:49

to the public who visits the gardens and

47:52

makes use of us as a resource. So

47:54

we're in an urban area, we want to

47:56

learn about where we are at. We've

47:59

been partners. with another nonprofit

48:01

called the High Line Canal Conservancy

48:03

for several years now. There

48:06

is a 71-mile-long urban

48:09

recreational corridor that runs

48:12

just right nearby Denver here. That

48:14

is just a beautiful gem of

48:16

kind of a resource for the

48:18

local people. It's a green corridor.

48:21

So it was built up alongside

48:23

of a canal that was dredged

48:25

in the late 1800s.

48:28

It never worked very well for its

48:30

original intent, which was to move stream

48:33

water from the foothills and mountains

48:35

out onto the eastern plains to

48:37

allow for settlement and farming to

48:39

happen. That's about 120 kilometers long. Thank you for the

48:43

unit conversion. Yes,

48:46

it's a huge amount of space, a

48:49

huge, really kind of green thread

48:51

that runs now through what has

48:53

grown up around it to be

48:55

quite a built urban and suburban

48:57

environment. So it's an extremely

48:59

beloved recreational corridor. There is still

49:01

water in the canal, but

49:04

there's not as much as there

49:06

used to be. Less water being run from

49:08

the headgates of the canal along that 71-mile

49:11

extent. There's a great desire

49:13

to manage this corridor for the long

49:16

term for people and for the animals

49:18

and for the trees and other woody

49:20

plants that have grown up along the

49:23

corridor since the late 1800s. It

49:25

provides shade. We're a semi-arid city.

49:28

So it's difficult to get trees

49:30

into the ground and to get

49:32

them growing and surviving for the

49:34

long term. So it's really an

49:36

ecologically important corridor. So one thing

49:38

that's happening that we've been working

49:40

in partnership with the Highline Canal

49:42

Conservancy is they're starting

49:44

to implement what's called

49:47

green stormwater infrastructure along the length

49:49

of the canal corridor. So

49:51

if there's less water coming from the

49:54

inception of the canal, how

49:56

can we plan to bring it in

49:58

laterally from the sides? And you

50:00

can take advantage of natural just rain events

50:02

that occur. If you put in

50:05

some infrastructure to channel the

50:07

water into the canal laterally and

50:09

hold it in place, it

50:12

allows some time for it to slow,

50:14

spread and sink into

50:16

those earthen canal bones. So

50:19

it can feed the water to the

50:21

cottonwoods, the willows, all of

50:23

these woody plants that need water. So

50:25

that's part of this longer term management

50:28

plan for the canal. And

50:30

we're also taking data on trees. Another

50:32

really exciting thing that's happening is

50:35

that there's a large scale tree

50:37

planting campaign going on. So

50:40

the plan is to put in 3,500 trees over the next

50:42

10 years along the length of the canal

50:46

because some of those cottonwoods and willows are

50:48

starting to age out. Just naturally they're coming

50:50

to the end of their lifespan and

50:53

it's getting drier and we

50:55

need to figure out how to get these woody

50:57

plants, the water that they need. So

50:59

we're taking advantage of the fact that all these

51:01

trees are going into the ground to

51:04

take data. So we're going to start

51:06

to build a long term data set. There's

51:09

about 10 species of trees that are going

51:11

in and they have different levels of drought

51:13

tolerance. All the way from extremely

51:16

drought tolerant trees to some of

51:18

our native riparian trees that typically

51:20

really need to be right up

51:22

next to a waterway in

51:24

order to survive. And we're going to track

51:26

survival and growth in different aspects of the

51:28

health of the trees over time and

51:31

relate that to the micro

51:33

environment, the exact planting location

51:35

and what those trees are

51:37

experiencing once they go into the ground in terms

51:40

of soil characteristics, light

51:42

availability, water availability. So

51:45

what are the most turn up as a result? There

51:48

are coyotes along

51:50

this corridor. There are owls,

51:52

there are raccoons, there are...

51:55

Bears? Any bears? Nope. Bears.

52:00

If you go to the really southwestern

52:03

extent of this canal where it starts

52:05

at the inception where the South Platte

52:07

River is, you might be getting into

52:09

some bears. The only bear I've seen since

52:12

I've been to Denver is one that's as big as

52:14

this building outside the

52:17

Convention Center and it's all blue. Yes,

52:20

it's a very unique bear. It's one

52:22

of a kind. Tell

52:25

me, is your example here, 120 kilometers

52:28

long, being watched and

52:30

maybe copied by any other cities

52:32

in the States? There

52:34

are a lot of these

52:36

long, narrow corridors that are

52:38

being developed throughout the U.S.

52:40

along like old railroad corridors,

52:42

for example, the Rails to

52:44

Trails initiative that's going on.

52:47

Lots of that in France as well. It's interesting.

52:51

I think that there is this

52:53

element of people going like, huh,

52:55

well, we already have this linear

52:57

corridor in place. How can we

53:00

beautify it? How can we increase

53:02

the ecosystem function along this standing

53:04

infrastructure? My hope is that we

53:07

are developing protocols that we plan

53:09

to freely share with whoever would

53:11

want to take them up and make use of them

53:14

for the monitoring that we're doing. That

53:16

would be a next step, would be to start

53:18

to reach out to the broader community and see

53:20

what we all might come together and collaborate on

53:22

a little bit more. Chris, very

53:24

exciting. Congratulations. Thank you

53:26

so much. Nice to talk with you. And

53:29

I wonder if you've seen those long

53:31

strips of green in France along old

53:33

railway lines, now safe

53:35

bucolic cycle paths. Dr.

53:38

Christine Elba in fire-prone Colorado,

53:40

Denver Botanic Gardens. Last

53:43

week, how that Melbourne Science Gallery

53:45

works, batteries for the future

53:47

and how your clothing may

53:49

replace all those gadgets. The

53:52

science show is produced by David Fisher. I'm Robin

53:54

Williams. great

54:00

ABC podcasts, live radio and

54:02

exclusives on the ABC Listen app.