0:00

If you need to wake someone up before

0:02

you go, Go. Where. You go

0:04

going from and why are you there you know.

0:18

Welcomed here and about. I'm

0:20

Sarah Marshall and today we're

0:22

bringing you the first part

0:24

of a two part episode

0:26

on George. Michael In.

0:28

My personal opinion you're wrong about is

0:30

often at it's best talking about pop

0:33

stars and proud sex havers. And.

0:35

I think this episode is no exception. Our.

0:38

Guess today is Marcus Mccann, author

0:40

of Part Cruising. What happens when

0:42

we wander off the path you

0:44

can find part cruising or ever

0:46

find. Books are sold and if

0:48

you want to hear a longer

0:50

version of this episode we have

0:52

put went out on Patreon and

0:54

Apple Plus subscriptions. So. Had over

0:57

there if you want a director's cut. I.

0:59

Caroline's cat if he. well, Speaking.

1:02

Of bonus content will be putting

1:04

out Part Three a very serious

1:06

and Britney Spears his memoir which

1:08

were talking about with the irreplaceable

1:11

Eve Linley next week. So if

1:13

you want to listen to part

1:15

three of our for part saga

1:17

and Britney Spears had over to

1:19

Patreon or Apple Pie subscriptions next

1:21

week for that and the week

1:23

after that for an extended cut

1:25

of Church Michael part to thank

1:28

you so much for joining us.

1:30

Thank you for being hair. Happy

1:33

April! I

1:40

am excited. I feel like we're at the

1:42

start of a fairly epic journey. My.

1:45

Relationship to George Michael A similar

1:47

to the so many other people's wishes

1:49

that. I. Like to listen

1:51

to freedom when I'm feeling sad

1:54

and faith when I'm feeling happy

1:56

and he's just not into the

1:58

fabric of our lives. I love that.

2:01

I don't know. George Michael is, I

2:03

guess, give you my baggage and then he can give us the

2:06

story. It's just someone who I was born in

2:08

the late 80s, so I think he was an

2:11

absolutely ubiquitous pop star. The

2:13

music was there. He was on the radio. His

2:17

most shocking moment in rock, I'm pretty sure,

2:20

was that he had started off in

2:22

Wham, which had, of course,

2:25

one of the most upbeat sounding songs

2:27

ever recorded. Wake me up before you

2:29

go go. What a delight, yes. He

2:32

came out at some point as

2:34

gay. His career continued, and

2:36

yet everything he did was regarded

2:38

as somehow potentially sinister because of that. I

2:41

say that like it's a 90s thing. We're

2:43

still doing it. This is an incident

2:45

that does not loom huge in my memory of the

2:47

90s to the point that I forgot I was

2:50

very off in my memory of when it happened, but

2:52

that he was arrested for

2:55

solicitation, question mark? Public

2:57

lewdness, yeah. Public lewdness.

3:00

Basically, for would it be correct to

3:02

say the man was merely cottaging? Yeah,

3:05

that's exactly what was happening. George

3:08

from the time he's young is asked,

3:10

are you gay in basically

3:12

every interview, like during his Wham years and

3:14

afterwards? Then after the

3:16

arrest in the bathroom in Will

3:19

Rogers Park in Beverly Hills, for

3:22

the rest of his life, now they're asking him

3:24

about park cruising. They're asking him about cottaging. We

3:27

had a general belief, I think, for a long time that

3:30

any sex more interesting than missionary with

3:32

the intent to have a baby was

3:34

somehow a mark of an antisocial personality.

3:38

The question of where public sex

3:40

fits into community

3:42

life feels important in this. Yeah,

3:45

I think that's right. To

3:47

start with, maybe can I send you a photo

3:49

to look at? Do you

3:52

know what George Michael looked

3:54

like when he was young? Not

3:56

really. I would love for you to

3:58

describe what you... what

4:00

you're looking at. Oh my God. I'm

4:08

having a positive maternal

4:11

response to this photo. He's

4:14

just got like this big shaggy

4:17

bowl cut. His head looks

4:19

like a dandelion. Big

4:21

glasses, big teeth, just kind of like

4:24

big features in that way where it's like you're gonna

4:26

be a pop star later but for now you haven't

4:29

grown into your face. I

4:31

mean, yeah, that's exactly right. I

4:33

also think he's got a bit of an air

4:36

of androgyny as so many of us did when

4:38

we were kids. With

4:41

a few alterations, this could be a photo of

4:43

me in the seventh grade. Right,

4:46

me too, maybe all of us in a way.

4:48

Yeah. So

4:50

George Michael was born Yorhios

4:53

Kiriakos Penayatu on June

4:56

25th, 1963. He's

5:00

gonna take the stage name George Michael, actually

5:03

between the release of the first and

5:05

second Wham! singles, which is a bit

5:07

odd timing wise. Wow.

5:10

Well, let's call him George because that's how

5:12

he's known to all of us. But George's

5:15

mother, Leslie Harrison, she's

5:18

from a working class North London

5:20

family. His father Jack is

5:22

actually born in Cyprus and

5:24

he migrates to the UK in the 1950s.

5:28

The story that's told about Jack is that he

5:31

couldn't afford even a second class

5:33

ticket to England and so

5:36

he ends up arranging to work on the boat

5:38

in exchange for passage. And

5:41

when he arrives, he's got nothing, basically no

5:43

money in his pocket. Jack and

5:45

Leslie meet in 1957 at,

5:48

I think this is appropriate for our story, they needed

5:50

a dance. We

5:52

really, you know, you hear about dances and

5:54

all these stories from this period. We need

5:56

to have dances again. This is why the

5:58

kids aren't meeting. dances. Well

6:01

I feel like yeah this would be a different it would

6:03

have a bit of a different tinge if it was like

6:05

they met at the club. The

6:10

life of this family from

6:12

when George is born to when

6:14

he sort of ends his teenage years is

6:18

this trajectory of

6:20

kind of middle-class driving. When Jack

6:22

and Leslie are first married they

6:24

live with another married couple in

6:27

a rented apartment. Jack's working first

6:29

as a busboy and then he

6:31

works as a waiter and then the head of front

6:34

of house and by the

6:36

time George is a teenager Jack and

6:38

Leslie have bought a restaurant and they're

6:40

running a restaurant themselves. And

6:43

you can also see this kind of with

6:45

like the musical instruments that George gets when

6:47

he's a kid. So when he's really young

6:49

he's singing in choir which requires no money.

6:51

He's playing the lungs. Yeah

6:54

exactly. By the time

6:57

he's a teenager like early teens he has

6:59

a violin and like the

7:01

violin is just the archetypal instrument

7:04

of middle-class longing right?

7:07

The migrant story told by thousands

7:09

of kids forced to play the

7:11

violin against their will. Wow yeah

7:14

that makes me think of an American tale

7:16

and how Papa Mouseowitz has a violin and how

7:18

then when you think about it at the

7:20

scale that a mouse's violin would be it

7:22

would make the most annoying sound in the

7:24

world. Oh like like this

7:27

sort of high-pitched screechy noise. Yeah but

7:29

maybe to a mouse it sounds

7:31

perfect. At the same time and

7:33

as he gets older into his teen years he

7:35

gets a drum set. Hmm. His living situation is

7:37

also changing in the same sort of way over

7:39

hit the course of his childhood. So when he's

7:42

born his family's living

7:45

in a rented apartment over a laundromat

7:48

and then when he's 12 in

7:51

1975 the family buys a

7:53

house sort of northwest of London and

7:55

move into this kind of more

7:58

affluent middle-class neighborhood. And

8:00

like, I mean, I don't want to be too cute

8:02

about it. Like that sounds pretty unidirectional. But I do

8:04

think that this is a family that has come from

8:07

kind of stark circumstances. And

8:10

the parents are just working really hard. So

8:12

Leslie, for example, is working at

8:15

a fish and chip shop during the day. And

8:18

at night working in the family

8:20

restaurant. She hates it. She's like

8:22

describes her hair smelling like, like

8:25

fried oil and fish. She doesn't have any

8:27

time for herself. She's in

8:29

the chip mines. She's in the

8:31

chip mines. Yeah, exactly. And now

8:33

of course, we have to deal with the fact that everyone

8:35

except the super rich seem to be getting poorer. Well,

8:38

I mean, that's it. Exactly. The

8:40

idea that somebody who's a waiter

8:42

could then buy their own restaurant

8:45

and buy a house for their family. It that

8:48

seems naive, right?

8:50

It seems hopeless today. Yeah,

8:52

good for the George Michaels.

8:56

George would later say of this period that

8:58

he felt that he felt ugly and fat.

9:00

He would also say that he never received

9:03

praise from his father and

9:06

that he sensed his mother's

9:08

discomfort with his sensitive side. He

9:11

was close to his mother, Leslie, throughout his

9:13

and throughout her entire life. But

9:15

here's what, you know, in a candid moment, he

9:18

says this, sometimes I felt

9:20

that my mom made me feel I wasn't

9:22

man enough or boy enough when I was

9:24

growing up. I mean,

9:26

it makes me think about like my understanding of sort

9:29

of beliefs about parenting at

9:31

this time are that like, if

9:34

you see gay qualities in your child,

9:36

you must stifle them

9:38

immediately so that he grows up normal

9:40

and can have a normal life and

9:42

not be condemned to living on

9:45

sex criminal island or whatever, or collecting

9:49

stamps. Right. And

9:51

the irony is that you behaving weirdly

9:53

around this kid is going to

9:55

generate the neuroses. It's going to prevent them

9:57

from feeling Normal and accepted.

10:00

Love to think it. Pray and

10:02

it feel and especially like Americans

10:04

are horrible. To and and and many

10:06

and basically the same way as Re

10:08

Like the apple doesn't fall far from

10:10

the British tree, but I feel like

10:12

learning, especially about like English parenting in

10:14

the twentieth century. You're just like wow,

10:16

they really were afraid of loving their

10:18

children. Especially in the

10:20

middle class I do want to

10:23

give was we're a short shrift

10:25

here because now so she's growing

10:27

up in a culture. And

10:29

she may have been thinking in the back

10:31

of her mind about her brother. Colon.

10:34

Harrison says George's uncle

10:36

calling Harrison was gay.

10:39

says. Her brother and was locked in

10:41

a man's mental institution in the Nineteen

10:44

fifties and sixties. And when when he

10:46

gets out for a few days to

10:48

visit his family? and nineteen Sixty Four.

10:51

He overdoses on pills and kills himself and

10:53

so George's and told about the story when

10:55

he's a kid. He doesn't heal me, learns

10:58

about his game. go much later, Leslie didn't

11:00

have any control over that. But

11:03

she she has seen really

11:05

close in her immediate family.

11:07

The. A Sacks of Homophobia

11:09

and how deadly they can be.

11:12

Are there things that you feel like had

11:14

have been within her rights? And

11:17

that time and place as ideas that.

11:20

We wish he thought of she's

11:22

giving. Tours the kind of

11:24

material. The advantages that she thinks

11:27

are important. The. Reason is

11:29

that they can move from one neighborhood

11:31

to a fancier neighborhoods with answer neighborhood

11:33

and go to a middle class school

11:35

and have middle class friends and towards

11:37

it's gonna have this middle class life

11:39

afterwards. Read something wrong with that imposed

11:41

on it's on it's own the desire

11:43

to want to provide materially for your

11:45

kid but I think like it is

11:48

a demonstration of affection but it is

11:50

not a section on it's own say

11:52

and and I say like I can

11:54

also create the say namic. You know,

11:56

not necessarily in the family, but certainly

11:58

in some families as. I.

12:01

Have sacrificed everything and made

12:03

one million sips. So.

12:05

That you can have the slaves and you're

12:07

not going. To. Talk about

12:09

by being gay. Both

12:11

I mean totally as and the family

12:13

as towards develops a love for music

12:16

in is trying to. To. Get

12:18

a record contracts His dad

12:20

is saying. you know? You

12:23

need to think about what happens when your

12:25

dream fails because you're not going to be

12:27

a pop star. You have a terrible voice.

12:29

No one's gonna listen. Ceo, you know parents

12:31

are almost always right about that. Some of

12:33

the out her first. Rip

12:37

it. Also, would you rather be right? Or

12:39

would you rather inspire your kid to follow

12:41

their dreams? Are. A lot I

12:43

feel like there's there's also this idea

12:46

and maybe this is more. An American

12:48

idea that like talent is like

12:50

this big lottery and either you

12:52

when bag or you don't get

12:54

anything and it's like know you

12:56

ideally you love the thing you

12:58

love and you explore that a

13:00

make sense of it. And

13:02

you find a lie for yourself within kind

13:04

of the wider world of it unless it's

13:06

something that there's practically no paying job that

13:09

always I realized has happened to them fields

13:11

but he. Analysis of the savior that

13:13

you either. You. Either

13:15

succeed one hundred percent an exact dream

13:17

he had when he were five, or.

13:20

You. Haven't made any progress. As

13:22

if we get to all or

13:24

nothing about it. When you're a

13:26

kid or when you're a Tween,

13:29

your parents attitudes towards you or

13:31

for views are to so important.

13:33

flakes business to this moment. Word

13:36

towards he's a teenager. He has

13:38

a demo. And it's just

13:40

like of of snippets of songs. it's not

13:42

even whole songs and he. Slips

13:44

into his dad's car. Why does he

13:47

do that? Isn't like Jack has

13:49

any influence over the music industry. Is not

13:51

like from trying to get discovered by his

13:53

dad. he says time get a little bit

13:56

of approval. He is a

13:58

cat. Discomfort sizes. The and.

14:01

I feel I go with like a

14:03

withholding parent near lake Sunday. They're

14:06

gonna discover me. They're

14:09

gonna be like oh my god has I

14:11

didn't realize this was my child. I love

14:14

them Now said top of a dish has

14:16

been taken off would. Certainly

14:20

have any. make. Sauerkraut? Yeah,

14:22

exactly. Oh My. God. We're

14:25

We're fixing a different this

14:27

exactly. And ah, Emotional.

14:30

I mean, like Austin, the task of

14:32

your adult life is to be like,

14:34

actually don't need my parents' approval. Yeah,

14:37

even if my parents don't understand this

14:39

aspect of me, I'm succeeding on my

14:41

own terms. Raise. A.

14:43

I'm really working on it. It's a whole thing.

14:47

It is a whole say it's it, it

14:49

is a lifelong project as it's not support

14:51

hours doesn't have the skills when he's fifteen

14:53

years. and as music something that them

14:55

for into his parents are as he just kind

14:57

of on his own and then. Music.

15:00

Was important to them and they put

15:02

it aside because they're working so hard.

15:04

me like when he's a teenager. he

15:07

finds this like nasty record player in

15:09

the garage the he scuse and he

15:11

finds his parents old records and is

15:13

not a lot of them. But there's

15:16

the Supremes and there's Tom Jones and

15:18

the Stevie Wonder they went. they met

15:20

at a dance ray at one point

15:22

they were in to pop music. they

15:24

were in sir. What music

15:27

could make them feel me? And it's just

15:29

like such as a. Metaphor.

15:31

That now though. The. Record player

15:33

is in the. In

15:35

the garage getting dusty. Reality.

15:38

Busy is a. For

15:41

four years as he gets older, he

15:43

said he's like a musical omnivore. He

15:46

likes Naba, He likes the D G's

15:48

He likes the Sex Pistols you like

15:50

Scream For. He's like he's taking it

15:52

from. From. all over that kind

15:55

of pop spectrum he's finding his sounds

15:57

totally rates for nike maybe he's into

15:59

the Sugarhill gang. Like he has to

16:02

get these records imported from

16:04

the US. Okay, wait, I feel

16:06

like I've gotten ahead of myself a little bit.

16:08

When he's 11, he moves to

16:10

this school in the nice

16:12

neighborhood in Radlett. And he

16:14

enrolls at Bushe Meade's school,

16:16

great name, very British sounding.

16:20

And on his first day, he meets Andrew Ridgeley.

16:24

Wow. George is described

16:26

as being shy and awkward. He

16:28

has big glasses. He's developing a

16:30

unibrow, which is very cool now,

16:32

but was not cool at the

16:34

time. And Andrew,

16:37

on the other hand, is cool

16:39

and confident and fashionable.

16:42

And they're an odd couple, but

16:44

they become instant friends. Andrew

16:46

and George are going to be

16:49

inseparable for 10 years. Yeah.

16:51

And it also feels like as

16:53

an introverted kid, you do, you need to

16:55

find someone who's more extroverted and sure of

16:57

themselves. And then it's like you have a

17:00

partner in crime for exploring the

17:02

world, which you don't feel you have license

17:05

to do on your own necessarily. Yeah, 100%.

17:07

Or like somebody that

17:09

you don't have to start

17:11

at zero when you're having a conversation. They

17:14

form a band called the Executive in 1979. So George is 16

17:16

at the time. And they record a demo, which leads to nothing.

17:22

There's five of them in the executive.

17:25

And as the these boys start

17:27

leaving the executive, Andrew

17:29

and George start to discuss a

17:31

duo. And that duo

17:33

will become wham! George

17:36

is writing some sort of proto songs. And

17:38

they're trying to record a demo. In a

17:40

way, like this is my favorite time to

17:42

think about George. We think of

17:45

him as this wonderkin selling millions of records

17:47

and touring the world. He's like 19 and

17:49

20 years old. But

17:51

just before that, from

17:54

1979 to 1981, he's holding down a

17:57

variety of jobs. He works at a company called the Executive in the car

18:00

wash, he works at a

18:02

construction site, a movie theater. His

18:05

dad actually in 1980, his dad gets him

18:07

a job DJing at a restaurant. I

18:10

do think there is something there where he

18:12

is learning about how people react to music

18:15

by DJing at this restaurant. Yeah,

18:17

he's also hanging out with Andrew

18:19

and Andrew's girlfriend,

18:21

Shirley Holliman. Shirley has a car.

18:23

And in the summer, the

18:26

three of them are like, they're spending time at

18:29

the swimming pool. They're

18:31

going to McDonald's. They're going

18:33

tanning, you know, they're getting

18:35

ice cream. Like cruising around in

18:37

Trillie's car, and also hanging out at

18:39

George's house, listening

18:41

to music and being stupid teenagers,

18:44

and making like choreographed dances to

18:46

the songs just to be fun.

18:49

That's so great. Right. In a

18:51

way, it's like this is the moment

18:53

when George is at his most secure,

18:55

he's like with his closest people. This

18:57

like little trio him and Andrew and

18:59

Shirley. They're 18 and no one can tell

19:02

them what to do. Yeah,

19:04

God, and you know, and not to say that that's what's

19:06

happening here, but there are definitely like relationships

19:09

maybe more in adolescence

19:11

and young adulthood than later

19:13

on, where, you know, you're like

19:15

a third wheel in a relationship, and nobody

19:18

has the language to talk about it. But you're

19:20

really kind of like having a three

19:22

way relationship in a lot of senses. And

19:25

you're just like, we're teenagers, we're not going

19:27

to talk about it. But everyone's

19:29

confused. And we like it. You know,

19:33

and not that it's like a sexual relationship,

19:35

but just where you're like, you're all kind

19:37

of intimate and supporting each other. And you

19:39

like choreographed dances. Yeah,

19:41

it's going to be a part of his sort

19:43

of social support network

19:46

into his 20. Like

19:49

Shirley is going to become a backup dancer in

19:51

Wham. And you're going to see her in the

19:53

Wham videos. Oh my God. What's

19:56

his self image like at this point? What

19:58

do we know about that? he feel about himself?

20:02

Yeah, he's insecure in his

20:05

teen years. He's getting fashion

20:07

advice from Andrew and also from his

20:09

sister Melanie, to like

20:11

straighten his hair, to pluck his

20:14

eyebrows, to get contact lenses so

20:16

he doesn't have the glasses. Simon

20:18

Napier-Bell, who's going to become his first

20:21

manager of WAM

20:24

said, George was like so insecure

20:26

and trying to emulate the cool

20:29

and the aesthetic of

20:31

his best friend. And that by

20:33

the time you get to the end of the

20:35

WAM years, the power dynamic has completely swapped. And

20:38

George is the international superstar.

20:41

But at this moment, I think he's feeling pretty

20:43

insecure. He's going to start

20:46

going to gay bars and cruising pretty

20:48

soon. He will

20:50

say during this period that he's still dating

20:52

women. He did have a

20:55

high school girlfriend. But it

20:57

seems that the most

20:59

significant relationship in his life at

21:01

this moment is the one with

21:03

Andrew and Shirley. Okay. WAM

21:05

signs with inner vision in 1982, when George is

21:08

18 years old. Wow. Each

21:13

of them receive 500 pounds as a

21:15

signing bonus. George is going to

21:17

be like reasonably good with money his whole life. So

21:19

he doesn't blow it on partying or

21:22

buying stuff for himself. But he does

21:24

give himself one treat, which is he

21:26

gets his ear pierced. It's going to

21:29

be very important, I feel like. Iconic,

21:32

right? Yeah. George Michael Tostier.

21:34

You can see that 500

21:37

pounds on him for the rest of his

21:39

life. Pretty much exactly that. Yeah. The first

21:42

two WAM singles are not really big

21:44

successes in Britain. And they're not even

21:46

released in the US. They're not, they don't. In

21:49

order to promote their first song, which is called

21:51

WAM rap. No.

21:53

Yeah. Oh, yes,

21:57

yes, it is. It's called WAM rap. Like as

21:59

soon as rap is making its bridging

22:01

into popular culture is having its

22:04

moment, there are white people doing

22:06

it too. And then that's how

22:09

we make that happen. George

22:11

is going to have an uneasy

22:13

relationship to race over the course

22:15

of his musical career, because

22:18

his influence is he's influenced by

22:21

Stevie Wonder and by Prince

22:24

and by the Supremes. And some of this music

22:26

is going to sound, the

22:28

echoes are certainly there. They're very strong.

22:30

In the early in the mid 80s,

22:34

the American Music Awards renames

22:36

the categories. Like it used

22:38

to be hot black singles

22:40

was the category. Hot black

22:43

singles? Yes, yes. Now

22:45

only for like the adult websites.

22:51

I'm speechless. It gets

22:53

renamed R&B Soul Artist,

22:56

right? Male R&B Soul Artist. Which I guess

22:58

is a bit of a dog whistle when

23:00

you think about it. And

23:02

George is going to get nominated and win that category.

23:05

And when he does, Deanne

23:07

Warwick and others say, what are you

23:09

doing nominating this guy in this category?

23:11

Right. When there's great music being put

23:13

out by black artists that are being

23:15

ignored. And this is

23:17

basically like the one category where a

23:20

black artist can win something and he's

23:22

in their category now. Yeah. Well, that's just

23:25

it, right? Just

23:27

one more example of his relationship

23:29

to race. The executive, the

23:31

first band that he was in, has

23:34

this kind of like reggae vibe.

23:37

Five white people from suburban London

23:40

making this kind of reggae two

23:42

tone music. Who do they think

23:44

they are? The police? Well, exactly.

23:46

Right. Sting wasn't

23:48

affecting a fake Caribbean accent,

23:50

though. And that's

23:52

part of the what happens with the executive. So

23:55

it's good that they, you know, this is like

23:57

a bad idea that a group of teenagers have

23:59

that goes nowhere. I'm happy

24:01

to hear that. Great to throw away a

24:03

first draft. Yeah. So Wham!

24:06

Rap is the song that they're promoting

24:08

in 1982. The phrase Wham! Rap is

24:10

really great. As

24:16

stressing as the implications may be.

24:19

It's quite something. I mean the message I

24:21

think is pretty neat. In the first couple

24:23

of songs they have this kind of like

24:26

anti-authoritarian message. They're basically like, if you don't

24:28

like your job you should quit it and

24:30

go on the dole. Why not? Very political.

24:32

Yeah. It was very political and this is

24:35

and that's like that is the first two

24:37

singles that that they're doing. Anyway

24:39

no one is listening to Wham! Rap and so

24:42

what they decide to do is start making

24:44

appearances at London dance clubs.

24:46

They basically go in

24:48

and lip sync. Andrew would like

24:50

hold a guitar. They would

24:53

do it for like four minutes and then flip out

24:55

the back door and go to their next engagement. They

24:57

would do like as many as five of these in

24:59

one night. That was a brilliantly insane idea that only

25:01

teenagers could come up with. It's

25:04

great, right? And like they're not just

25:06

appearing at straight clubs. One of their

25:08

first appearances is at Bolts, a gay

25:10

night at Lasers. Wow. The boys decide

25:12

they're gonna change into these tiny little

25:14

gym shorts to perform like basically like

25:17

Go Go Boys. That's beautiful. Well

25:19

it's so the kind of thing that you get

25:21

in these you know kind of teenage performance

25:24

art movies too where it's like if only

25:26

they hear us or see us perform they'll

25:29

know we're the real deal. It's like it's

25:31

that it's not egotism

25:33

exactly. It's just sort of like this

25:36

beautiful childlike confidence in

25:39

something, some kind of magic. Like

25:41

or like musical meritocracy. Yeah I

25:43

love that. I'm happy for the

25:45

people who got to see those

25:47

performances. Totally right. And also

25:50

they're touring like as they're doing this

25:52

around London they have backup dancers as

25:55

well. So it's Shirley. Wow.

25:57

Andrew's now ex-girlfriend but still close friend of

25:59

mine. the two of them, and

26:01

DC Lee, who would later go on to be

26:03

in the band's style council. So

26:06

contrary to this idea that if they

26:08

only try hard enough, they're going to

26:10

get noticed, it's only because

26:12

of a last minute cancellation on top of the

26:14

pops. Right. And this was a

26:16

show that just kind of everybody saw, right? If

26:19

you were on top of the pops, you would

26:21

just be known. So

26:24

the second single, which is called Young Guns, had

26:26

stalled out in the low 40s at around 43

26:28

on the board chart. And

26:32

after the appearance, it rockets up to

26:34

number three. They

26:37

then re-released the first single, which hadn't

26:39

done well, and it does better because

26:41

now they've got a fan base. Because

26:43

now people know it's cute boys singing,

26:45

and that changes everything. The

26:49

album, Fantastic, is a number one

26:51

album in the UK. It

26:54

peaks at 83 in the US. So

26:56

it doesn't have the same cultural

26:58

reach. And I literally think that

27:00

calling an album Fantastic is itself

27:02

a bit gay coded, and I

27:04

wondered if that affected American. I

27:07

love it. The next

27:09

album is called Make It Big, which is also maybe... Well,

27:11

there you go. That's what she

27:13

said. During

27:15

the filming of this music video, George comes out

27:17

to Andrew and Shirley as gay. How

27:20

does that go? He apparently told

27:22

Shirley first, and Shirley's like, we

27:24

have to tell Andrew. Andrew

27:27

and Shirley and George talk about

27:29

it, and they decide not to

27:31

tell George's parents. Certainly

27:34

Andrew's self

27:36

recollection, and what he will say

27:38

in later interviews, is like, I thought, I don't

27:40

care. This is just

27:42

one thing in the sort of great potpourri

27:45

of his life. He

27:48

never expresses a homophobic attitude

27:50

toward George. I

27:54

feel like it's part of the kind of

27:56

upward trajectory that we like to imagine history

27:58

is Expressing. is it moves forward.

28:00

We liked her same that me. now. There's.

28:03

A straight line of things getting better and I

28:05

feel like throughout history there have always been friends

28:07

who have ended friendships because of how a phobia.

28:10

And there have always been friends who don't care

28:12

and I know they deserve to be celebrated to.

28:15

Yeah I mean I just think it's like

28:17

what a risk for George in that moment

28:20

yeah like is is he afraid he's rolling

28:22

the dice which kind of a friend as

28:24

he didn't get and the says his family

28:26

totally And it's also like they're recording the

28:29

video for that's going to accompany the released

28:31

as the album The full length album act

28:33

as a lot riding on them continuing to

28:35

work together and to have chemistry amazing And

28:38

also it feels like that's the point where

28:40

you're like we can't go any farther forward

28:42

without without me telling you potentially. Yeah,

28:45

he feels like he needs to be honest

28:47

in them. Rumors about your to

28:49

sexuality are already brewing. When

28:52

he signs with his first agent the

28:54

agent gets calls from people be like

28:56

I've seen him in the gay clubs.

28:58

The. Guy that you to sign This guy. In

29:01

part as a result of that, The.

29:03

Record label starts

29:05

producing content. That.

29:07

Shows him dating women moon. So

29:09

there's a manufactured story about him

29:11

dating Brooke Shields for women who

29:13

is romantically linked to a number

29:15

of game and why was that

29:17

her job gratitude not her judge

29:19

to do it for free. Ah,

29:21

but maybe the worst version of

29:24

it is that the Music Journal

29:26

number one record. Sets.

29:28

Georgia up with a Karen Woodward from

29:30

Been In or Emma and they go

29:32

on a date. And it's a date

29:35

with Karen and George. And

29:37

the reporter or

29:40

ah wow. Later

29:42

on terror and will meet and

29:44

fall in love with Andrew Ridley

29:46

and get married and they stayed

29:48

together till twenty seventeen. Guy

29:51

and I really thought the punchline was gonna.

29:53

Be that Karen one is a lesbian and

29:55

that's why it's especially Grace. i

29:57

was like banana ramidus and guess true

29:59

True, true, true, true. Cruel summer, very

30:01

lesbian song. Love

30:04

that. It's interesting because

30:06

everyone is participating, right? Like

30:08

the music, right? The

30:10

reporters are, on the one

30:12

hand, reporting rumors that he's gay, and

30:15

also setting him up with Karen

30:17

Woodward on this fake date. Yeah,

30:19

because I guess both stories are profitable.

30:21

Right? I guess that's the moral of

30:24

the moral of it. That's

30:26

how reality is counter-aided. He

30:28

will later say that he wishes that he had

30:30

been more honest early. Earlier, he's

30:33

getting asked though constantly, every time

30:35

he does media, are you gay?

30:37

And at first, he's like trying to

30:40

be cute about it. He says like,

30:43

things like, well, you know, I don't think you

30:45

should have to answer that. Anyone should have to

30:47

answer that question. Or like David Bowie and Mick

30:49

Jagger were allowed to live in a kind of

30:51

ambiguous space. Why am I not allowed to? Later

30:54

on, he's going to say like, he starts saying

30:56

to reporters who ask, it doesn't matter what I

30:58

tell you because you're not going to believe me

31:00

anyway. And

31:03

all of that sounds very defensive to me. Right?

31:06

You may think so, but I

31:08

couldn't possibly comment. Yeah, right. Exactly.

31:11

Around this time, they go on

31:13

tour. So this is just in

31:15

the UK. For

31:17

a relatively young band with

31:19

only nine songs to their name.

31:21

It is

31:23

a massive event. It must be a

31:26

short concert. Right. They do some covers

31:28

and they spice it up a little

31:30

bit. But in order to finance it,

31:32

they get an endorsement deal from Fila,

31:34

the like, athleisure clothing company.

31:37

And they wear these tiny matching tennis shorts

31:39

on the tour. I just sent you a

31:42

photo if you want to have a look.

31:44

Oh, shit. I think

31:46

many people believe this

31:48

as well. I think basketball

31:51

really needs to return to having

31:54

men wear hot pants. Oh, yeah.

31:56

Yeah, those are good days. I don't know why we

31:58

stopped. So yeah, so

32:01

George Michael is wearing a lemon

32:03

yellow feela athleisure

32:06

suit, I guess with yeah the short shorts

32:09

It's just great. You know, it's just

32:11

how I think everyone should dress

32:13

if they feel like it It's

32:18

so adorable right? Yeah, we think

32:20

of whams music is being kind

32:22

of like cheerfully neutered hmm,

32:24

but it's like not sexual and And

32:27

these photos they are in

32:29

the basically male lingerie Mm-hmm.

32:32

If you need to wake someone up before you go go

32:36

If you're with them in the morning and you're go

32:38

going Where are you go going

32:40

from and why were you there? You know? The

32:43

music press responds with a kind of

32:45

bafflement to to wham and wham success.

32:47

Hmm Like they can't see these girls

32:50

who are just losing

32:52

their mind for Andrew and George

32:55

For as long as there's been pop culture

32:58

teenage girls have loved a segment of it

33:00

that everyone else has then acted confused about

33:02

But it's like I don't know.

33:04

I don't think it's ever that confusing. I think we

33:06

like to act like we can't see The

33:10

value in something because we

33:12

like to performatively revile What

33:15

teenage girls care about because as a culture

33:17

we think they're stupid Yeah,

33:19

there's something like like our culture

33:21

says it's okay to sexualize teen girls But

33:24

when yeah, they're the ones doing the desiring

33:26

when it's their desire. That's the moment when

33:28

we're like, nope shut it down

33:31

Yeah, whatever it is that they're desiring

33:33

isn't serious isn't worthy of our attention.

33:35

We can only react with With

33:38

surprise or in comprehension Yeah,

33:41

it's so frustrating that it's like the

33:43

only really socially suspect thing you can

33:45

do with the teenage girl is care

33:48

about her feelings Whoa, yeah

33:50

or like listen to what she has to

33:52

say. Yeah, we have a lot to do

33:54

I mean, I don't I'm a grown-up.

33:57

I like wham. I never stopped liking them. I

33:59

don't know why It's hard for people. Totally,

34:02

right? Maybe, yeah, maybe it's easier

34:05

now that teen girls are into euphoria

34:07

and like this sort of like extremely

34:09

dark. Yeah, we're like,

34:11

no, do wham again. Yeah,

34:14

I mean, it's funny that we're having this conversation about George

34:16

at 20 because his relationship

34:19

to aging is going to

34:21

be very public as he gets older in the 90s. But

34:24

for now, you mentioned make it

34:26

big. So that's the next thing that happens. At least

34:28

this album that is going to be massive

34:30

in the UK and

34:32

in the US. It's going to

34:35

go six times platinum in the US

34:37

and sell 10 million records worldwide.

34:40

My god. It's going

34:42

to spawn four massive singles. We were talking about

34:44

Wake Me Up Before You Go Go. There's also

34:47

Careless Whisper is on there and

34:49

Freedom and Everything She Wants. Yeah,

34:52

I can't believe Careless Whisper

34:54

was on that early. The

34:57

mythology of Careless Whisper is that he writes it when

34:59

he's 17, taking the

35:01

bus out to that DJ gig. That's

35:03

insane. Yeah, yeah. I find

35:05

that disheartening. I'm

35:07

sure many people disagree, but I think

35:10

Careless Whisper is incredible.

35:14

It's a bop, right? There's a reason that we're still singing

35:16

it. So

35:18

it is on this album, but when they

35:20

release it as a single, they're going to call it a

35:23

George Michael single. They're not going to call it a wham

35:25

single. In some

35:27

parts of the world, they release it as

35:29

wham featuring George Michael. OK,

35:32

and is this like a record company idea or

35:34

what? What's happening here? He's sort

35:36

of like stepping out from behind the

35:38

shadows. He's taking center stage. Wow.

35:42

He records it twice. He records it first

35:45

in a very famous studio

35:47

in Alabama. And

35:49

he doesn't like the results. Is that Muscle

35:51

Shoals? It sure is. Yes, Camille. That's crazy.

35:54

Amazing. He does it when he's

35:56

like 19, records it, And

35:58

he doesn't like it. The record that seems

36:01

like even shudder music video for it.

36:03

And they have to like take apart

36:05

the music video and use what little

36:08

pieces they can because his voice is

36:10

no longer thanks to. A family

36:12

of thing that he was able to do that. Honestly,

36:14

totally ray are going to talk about

36:16

the saxophone from other way. I mean

36:18

the i feel like we have here.

36:20

It's like the elephant in the room

36:22

like what's going on with be I

36:24

had the saxophone Get America So upset.

36:26

I mean apparently in the first rendition

36:29

there's like a session musician who plays

36:31

the socks on it and. torches,

36:33

And like it a fly and someone

36:35

else from New York towards doesn't really

36:37

like it either. and then when they're

36:40

recording and he just like additions people

36:42

all day and the version of it

36:44

that guts recorded. Is. Recorded

36:46

on an older saxophone that doesn't have

36:48

the high knows like that. there's just

36:50

how know you can't play it and

36:52

so they transport transposed the whole thing

36:55

down a half tune. He

36:57

plays if they love it and they speed it

36:59

up a half tone. And another version

37:01

that's on the record. Wow. There's a

37:03

ceiling of uncanny ness. It feels Aliyah

37:06

artificial or plastic key and like maybe

37:08

that is the recording techniques. But also

37:10

it's literally been sped up. It's been,

37:12

it's been put into different key. Yeah,

37:15

it's a ghost saxophone. Cut.

37:18

I really love that! I don't

37:20

know. Pop music is so hard to

37:22

understand from the outside because some of

37:24

it is like so manufactured. And

37:26

the artists as his kind of me, you know, Moves.

37:29

Through it as if by Paracelsus

37:31

and sometimes he really looking at

37:33

an oscar. and I love that

37:35

you know he was six. I.

37:38

Will find the correct saxophone for this

37:40

and I'm going to is he had

37:43

a saxophone Addison Day and an elderly

37:45

if I mean I don't know and

37:47

we've talked about the and I recently

37:50

The Carpenters and Fleetwood Mac on the

37:52

show and. Sinead. O'connor. I

37:54

think that's less than others but I think George Michael

37:56

to like These are. either earnest

37:58

that that are import to me anyway because

38:01

they made pop music

38:03

that is pretty

38:05

deathless because it just

38:08

somehow coheres into

38:11

a perfect hole that you then

38:13

can listen to for the rest

38:16

of your life. I'll never, I'll

38:18

always have a nice

38:20

few minutes ahead of me in my life whenever

38:23

careless whisper comes on the radio. It's

38:26

so hard to make something that doesn't

38:28

feel heavy and plodding when

38:31

you're a perfectionist and he does it on this

38:33

album. I love it. I love that

38:35

there's artistic triumph in this story and that

38:37

he has a feeling of agency within

38:39

all this. Totally,

38:42

right? So these singles

38:44

are massive singles. There's

38:46

one more single in 1984 which is

38:48

the Last Christmas song. Oh

38:50

my God. A truly deathless

38:53

song. George Michael

38:55

is going to have an

38:57

evolving relationship with monogamy. By

39:01

the time we get into

39:03

the 90s, he's talking about

39:05

casual encounters and has a

39:07

relationship to sex and

39:09

sexuality which goes well beyond monogamy.

39:12

I think that's actually common

39:15

that people have an evolving

39:17

understanding of their sexuality and

39:19

what you want when you're 20 might not be

39:21

the same thing that you want when you're 40.

39:24

Oh yeah. I feel like in a way young people

39:26

are a lot more wired for monogamy

39:29

than older people because

39:31

when you're 20 you can't imagine loving

39:33

the same person forever and only wanting

39:35

to have sex with them forever.

39:38

And then you're 21 and you're like, oh my God.

39:41

Totally, right? I

39:44

also think because the world is just

39:46

serving these pro-monogamy tropes over and over

39:49

and over again that there's only one

39:51

way to love. Right. Where's

39:53

the great polyamorous romance

39:55

movie, the polyamorous approach

39:57

to Polyamory.

40:00

The Titanic. Live in.

40:02

The problem is that is just be like one

40:04

endless house meeting through the like three now so

40:06

far no I was a. Nightmare

40:09

before and Nineteen Eighty Five are

40:11

a whirlwind. They're making

40:13

music videos for the singles, they're touring

40:16

the album. The Us

40:18

to her as called where America.

40:21

Ah ah ah ah. I really

40:24

love that. Yeah, so as of

40:26

April and it's like a stadium,

40:28

sewer and the music industry. Is

40:30

surprised that it's such a big hit. And

40:33

it's the same thing is back in

40:35

England, Thousands and thousands of teen girls

40:37

and young women screaming at the top

40:40

of their lungs. every word of every

40:42

song. said the teen

40:44

girl Though it is suddenly

40:46

elevating. Wham. And making

40:48

us all where Americans as sounds

40:51

like total yes, it's there when

40:53

Erica and we didn't have this

40:56

yeah exactly. I've always thought

40:58

that epithets it at the height of their

41:00

fame. George tells Andrew. He

41:02

wants out. And. Early. And Nineteen

41:04

Eighty Six they announce. Wham. Is

41:06

splitting up? Wow. That is

41:08

a very that. So they were only

41:11

on the scene for like four years.

41:13

Yeah, and really less than that. And

41:15

they were barely making a blip in

41:17

the United States. And so, Nineteen Eighty

41:19

Four. So really, just two or two

41:21

and a half years of extreme celebrity

41:23

though, right? Like he cannot go out

41:25

in public everywhere she goes. He's mobbed

41:27

by women and girls. Listen. Girls.

41:30

I gotta just like a them but

41:32

as he gotta let people go about

41:35

their day he wanted to be the

41:37

biggest act in the world. And

41:39

now he is. That's the thing to

41:41

write. What do we do with that? and I feel like

41:43

famous. Fundamentally something that the human brain

41:46

isn't designed to compute. Woodward

41:48

says at the time is that

41:50

the kind of clean cut, cheerful

41:52

image of When with Anders idea.

41:55

And it doesn't suit him anymore. I mean

41:57

he's a some pretty nasty things like offhandedly

41:59

about and. You. Basically.

42:02

He's He tells reporters that andor

42:04

didn't contribute anything to make a

42:06

bag. And. It's not good for

42:08

his ego. Feel bad for Andrea to get

42:10

dragged around like this. And so it's time

42:12

to split up the band. What

42:15

do you think about those same ants? I.

42:17

Do think that there is this kind

42:19

of power of reversal that has happened

42:22

over the course of of of the

42:24

years of lamb were now George is

42:26

that the main guy and Anders the

42:28

psychic whereas it had never been that

42:31

way. Andrew. Is also going to

42:33

release a solo record. It's not going to

42:35

do anything but. They both gonna

42:37

be are both going to continue making

42:39

music obviously. I will also say because

42:41

he announces that they're going to split.

42:44

Months. Before it's over.

42:46

They. Have an opportunity to do something

42:48

which I think it's kind of nice

42:50

the release of final single which is

42:53

The Edge you haven't. They release a

42:55

compilation album and they do a big

42:57

final concert at When When Mile and

42:59

And I say it right. the the

43:01

lights come up. Wham. Is over

43:03

mile towards his twenty three years old.

43:06

I'm a guy into. I think

43:08

there is something nice about George

43:10

being honest with Andrew and I'm

43:12

giving a lead time letting everybody

43:14

has their like last interactions, doing

43:17

a final concerts and a final

43:19

single like that it's I think

43:21

that's nice. Okay, are having

43:23

an ethic all are consciously uncoupling? Wham?

43:25

that's Raise betrayed. I mean, he sang

43:28

some pretty nasty things about Andor at

43:30

this time, but I do think that

43:32

there's a kind of honesty to it

43:35

that I appreciate. After

43:38

he leaves, he goes to a recording studio

43:40

in Denmark. He spent two months there and

43:42

he comes out with the Face album basically

43:44

and in hand. A lot of talent for

43:46

one person to have. I'm kind of shocked

43:49

by how my she's Pretty thing and such

43:51

a short period. one hundred

43:53

percent right like and this album is

43:55

gonna have six big singles on it

43:58

it's gonna sell sixteen million com at

44:00

the time. By now, it's over than 25 million copies.

44:04

Yeah. The first single is actually not

44:06

a number one hit. The first single is, I Want

44:08

Your Sex. It's kind of like

44:10

Zac Efron being in that Ted Bundy movie.

44:13

He's like, I'm a grownup. Totally. Well, right.

44:15

I think there is this deliberate, he's shifting

44:17

his image by releasing I Want Your Sex

44:19

as a single. As you can

44:21

imagine, US radio refuses

44:24

to play it. A lot of radio

44:26

stations won't. This is like very typical

44:28

or 1988. On

44:31

the BBC, they won't play it before 9pm.

44:35

In the US, a lot of radio

44:38

stations bleep out the word sex or

44:40

overdub it with the word love or

44:42

something else. Oh,

44:44

that's really good. Well, right. So this is

44:46

the thing that the themes of it are

44:48

also kind of at odds

44:50

with the cultural moment. You're at the

44:53

height of the AIDS panic. There

44:56

are gay folks who are

44:58

recommending the abandonment of

45:00

casual sex altogether, either

45:03

through abstinence or through partnering up.

45:05

There's this kind of mainstream, I don't

45:07

know, fear of contagion. In

45:11

that kind of soup, George has

45:13

to respond to allegations that he

45:16

is promoting sex like

45:18

he invented it. And

45:21

he leans into one of the lyrics, which is, sex

45:24

is better when it's one on one. And

45:27

in the video, he writes on Kathy's body, explore

45:30

monogamy. That is not what that song is

45:32

about. But he is hedging his bets, you

45:34

know, he would later

45:36

say he regretted not being

45:38

not having the courage of his convictions to

45:41

promote his song in an unapologetic way.

45:44

So George Michael is upsetting the moral

45:46

majority, which is always ideal for a

45:48

pop star. Right.

45:50

And he's also got this kind of like

45:52

quasi religious imagery that he's using on the

45:54

album cover. Right. And the album is called

45:57

Faith. The second single is called Faith. He's

45:59

got An. During that has a

46:01

across on a rant. There is some

46:03

sort of religious a canuck iconography going

46:05

on as well. Just like in Nam

46:07

the like a prayer controversy is like

46:09

also again on First Blush. You might

46:11

think that when he's singing say that

46:13

slate faith in a romantic partner rain

46:15

but he's not saying that at all.

46:17

He saying i'm gonna leave my romantic

46:19

partner who I feel is insufficiently in

46:21

best suited me and I'm good at

46:23

because I have faith that I will

46:25

find something bigger and better out now

46:27

that like the faith he has his.

46:30

In himself Me: I had you feel

46:32

it is another thing said it's hard

46:34

to be in a bad mood. For.

46:36

As long as it's plane. And

46:39

nice mediate he begins the

46:41

global to or of face

46:43

moon. And he would later

46:45

says that he thought he would have

46:47

a more sophisticated grown up audience that

46:49

you know back in the Wham days

46:52

things he had been. Overwhelmed

46:54

by the hormone. All teens you know

46:56

him but he goes on at the

46:58

say to her and it is the

47:00

same or worse. Understandably, they're just a

47:03

few years older and I it's hard

47:05

to understand where to surprise in a

47:07

way. He's like producing. The. Kind

47:09

of perfect firestorm. He's doing it on

47:11

purpose and I think you can have

47:13

both of those feelings the same time.

47:15

that like. I. Wanted

47:18

this and gosh, this is hard.

47:20

He's got a personal Sas and

47:22

a personal trainer. He's working out

47:25

for four hours a day some

47:27

days. And he

47:29

wanted to go solo. But now he's

47:31

really genuinely alone in his best friends

47:34

aren't there with him anymore. Read.

47:36

And confronting that as a solo artist

47:38

rather than part of a unit seems

47:40

in many ways much harder. He.

47:42

Said here's a quote from him. He says. The.

47:45

More people you employ them were people

47:47

you have in your life who can't

47:49

be honest with you. And that's what

47:51

I find most distressing about touring. Yeah,

47:54

On. The one here are we going to

47:56

have like limitless sympathy for him? He's

47:58

doing something that he loves, his making

48:00

the as making bank but his feelings

48:03

about this to her are going to

48:05

influence how he behaves over the next

48:07

ten years. In Nineteen Ninety he begins

48:09

recording the follow up album which is

48:11

what would become Listen Without Prejudice volume

48:13

One. The songs come very slowly, fragment

48:16

by fragment, sometimes only four bars at

48:18

a time and like this is gonna

48:20

be how he record music for the

48:22

rest of his life. Basically session musicians

48:24

will be called the studio and wait

48:26

around all day and then the elite

48:28

qb like okay bass. Player come in.

48:31

And. Then he'll have something for him. And.

48:34

A bass player. oh play that. He's like,

48:36

okay, now go back and went out and

48:38

that in the lobby. It's like quite a

48:40

kind of slow tortured method of the appreciate.

48:42

Also that he's got, he's doing this over

48:45

the course of months. He's got the kind

48:47

of studio time that as you are talking

48:49

said to Carolyn Kendrick about. With. Respect

48:51

to rumors, we don't have that

48:53

to that, like like musicians don't

48:55

have that luxury to him but

48:57

that that's how Listen Without Prejudice

48:59

gets made. The record does fairly

49:01

well, but it's not the same

49:03

massive success as Face. And.

49:05

Same thing is that giant than like. Culture.

49:08

Pivots and a few dominate a moment

49:10

and make sense that you be less

49:12

likely to dominate the next moment. One

49:14

hundred percent yeah. And I mean towards

49:17

isn't gonna help himself with us. When

49:19

it comes to like the artwork and

49:21

the promotion of of the album, he

49:23

is a complete meltdown. He

49:25

refuses to use his name or image on

49:27

the cover of the album more. How are

49:29

they gonna sell? Like George state, the compromises

49:31

that they're allowed to put a sticker that

49:33

has his name on it on the record

49:35

as the like, only dollars. With that, it's

49:37

him. Funny to think

49:40

about this period when. Artist. Had

49:42

this kind of control cause they don't. I

49:44

don't even know. How much she said. Misbehave.

49:48

These say is where the record

49:50

label tell I wonder like I

49:52

don't think fit that Sony in

49:54

this period is. Behaving.

49:56

Well either. He's about

49:58

to sue to try to get. Release from his

50:01

record contract. but this part of it

50:03

of the fact that he's not talking

50:05

to journalists he like refuses to to

50:07

go on to or with the album.

50:10

He doesn't appear in any the music

50:12

The Seattle it's She was overwhelmed by

50:14

what happened both in the whim days

50:16

and in the first with his first

50:19

studio album. On it's like there hasn't

50:21

been. A time to sort of. Metabolize:

50:24

The last thing? riot access keeps being

50:26

a new thing, so. You

50:28

know, I don't have to think it's a good response

50:30

and order to think it makes sense as a response

50:33

given what's been going on for the past. Decade.

50:36

One. Hundred Percent One Hundred percent I will

50:38

say You know, like in hindsight you

50:40

could say this is the moment that

50:42

his fame and of plateau same rate

50:44

isn't is a massive star. But.

50:48

After this period, it's the beginning of

50:50

the kind of waning of his popularity, especially

50:52

in the Us. In the Uk, it's he's

50:54

going sell a bajillion more records. For.

50:57

Decades, but in in the U S this

50:59

is sort of the last were going to

51:01

see of him as a major cultural force.

51:03

Him. We. Don't need to

51:05

to make this distinction late. so

51:08

stark. But there is something about

51:10

this idea. Like Americans love celebrities

51:12

who are very young and very

51:14

pretty. and it's cheaper for the

51:17

industry for Hollywood or the recording

51:19

industry to dispose of those people

51:21

and find new broke twenty. or

51:23

yeah, Of which there are.

51:26

One hundred Melia. No excuse for up?

51:28

Yeah, but he's still have a big

51:31

pop star. He's still have the top

51:33

of his game in January of Nineteen

51:35

Ninety One. When. He plays rock

51:37

in Rio. So. Rock in

51:40

Rio is this sprawling outdoor concert.

51:42

Keith. Audiences are one hundred and

51:45

twenty thousand people die and with

51:47

huge it goes over nine days,

51:49

is scheduled actually to perform twice

51:51

and he has the. As.

51:53

Good tell you but his diva writer

51:55

but yeah plate now please they'll sit

51:58

in his writer it says that. They

52:00

are required to source and putting his dressing

52:02

room. Palm. Trees which are

52:04

to be painted white and baby

52:06

blue. com ah man when he

52:09

gonna do it though. He

52:11

also negotiates that after his performances. Like.

52:14

The organizers are going to pay for

52:16

him and his friends to stay in

52:18

Brazil and party in this resort town

52:21

of booze. Yes, we are more understandable.

52:23

I had him hasn't the the palm

52:25

trees that seem like a waste at

52:28

this concerts is and some awful apa.

52:30

George. Would later say that he first

52:32

laid eyes on in Solo from the

52:34

stage that he looks out into the

52:36

sea of people and season solo. I

52:39

don't know if that's true in other

52:41

accounts and Summer was sitting so far

52:43

away from the states that he eschews

52:45

binoculars to. Ensure it's.

52:47

A in his with

52:49

his hearts Iii believe.

52:51

That he believes that I tell myself

52:53

the same story of a lot Bad.

52:55

Totally right. At at at

52:57

any rate, by the morning after the

53:00

last concert. And summer. Has

53:02

dragged his friend have breakfast in the

53:05

lobby of the hotel. That even mean

53:07

George's day and George comes down into

53:09

the lobby and they lock eyes but

53:11

you're just being with stuff to a

53:13

car on his way out of town

53:15

to go to. possess. And

53:17

and Sa Mo isn't having any

53:19

of it, He figures out where

53:21

George is going and by nightfall,

53:23

he's at the same night, club,

53:25

is on the same dance floor,

53:27

and they're dancing together and flirting.

53:29

Yeah, and they're going to become

53:31

inseparable And Samoans words. And

53:34

some or has a kind of like

53:36

sunny. Upbeat. Way of being

53:38

in the world. And. towards his to

53:40

spin. And. Summers like he soup and

53:42

summers. Brazilian. He's thirty five,

53:44

so he's six or seven years older

53:47

than. Than. George prior to

53:49

meeting. And. Summer has a career

53:51

in fashion. He's like he's lived in

53:53

Paris, he's lived in New York. He's

53:55

a worldly man. In addition to being

53:57

just this this sunny and bray personality,

53:59

the. My bad, I feel like so

54:01

often he hear these less stories where you're

54:03

like you know, And he locked

54:06

eyes with her in the crowd

54:08

and she was eighteen And you're

54:10

like, oh, that's nice George's only

54:12

to see age appropriate think you'd

54:14

shards. And

54:17

someones are going to stay together for

54:19

the the rest of the busiest holiday.

54:21

And George's to accuse you, sized L

54:23

A and within a few days he's

54:26

sent friends amo and someone comes to

54:28

Georgia to live with him in California.

54:30

and they're basically together. for the rest

54:32

of. it's almost like an Us versus.

54:35

Love way and Nine had a

54:37

flame. Throwers his head Infatuation

54:39

he's had. He certainly had sex he

54:41

said had various types of sexual and

54:43

romantic relationships, but he's never been in

54:46

love like this. The kind of love

54:48

where you wake up every morning with

54:50

the man you love in bed with

54:52

you. He's experiencing that for the first

54:55

time with and somehow and it's like,

54:57

i don't know. It's hard to overestimate

54:59

that feeling. Yeah, like A and

55:01

it feels like he's had this period.

55:03

Of of adding up. Like.

55:06

These kind of mountains of career success

55:08

that he hasn't had this before and

55:10

maybe he that have to get to

55:12

a point where things. Slow.

55:14

Down a little. And order

55:17

to have this Yeah and it also

55:19

his the see that it changes his

55:21

relationships, it being game and entirely. I'm

55:23

going to send you a quote from

55:25

towards. He says it's very

55:27

hard to be proud of your own sexuality

55:29

when it hasn't brought you any way that

55:31

once it's associated with so and love as

55:34

easy to be proud of who you are.

55:36

Assessed. Simple when he put it that way. But

55:39

lake. And that's what's brilliant

55:41

about and is that it makes sense once

55:43

he here it. But you and them necessarily

55:45

ever realized that on your own? Maybe

55:47

we have a problem. or

55:50

maybe we don't always recognize

55:52

that in order to be

55:54

loving actors outwardly. We. Need

55:56

to be receiving mail of as well. Yeah,

55:59

totally. And again the sills

56:01

like maybe. An American thing is us. the culture

56:03

I know, but we're. We're the

56:05

say the of like if you don't love

56:07

yourself, how the hell are you gonna love

56:10

anyone else minute? Like, well you can't simply

56:12

ask me to learn how to love myself.

56:14

All. At once and like. Be

56:16

done and then move onto the next

56:19

thing like he does. starts himself simultaneously

56:21

re read. It is also this idea

56:23

that it is. It's okay for it

56:25

to be an unfinished product. Re projects

56:27

that it's not a matter of like

56:30

you tick the box at some point,

56:32

you just you're like it done out.

56:34

Accepted my saturdays and straight now which

56:36

I feel like is kind of one

56:38

of the themes of of face. Ninety.

56:41

Were it's like. You know, that feels

56:44

like a sign being signed by someone who knows

56:46

what it's like to be accepted by an entire

56:48

stadium of people. And knows that

56:50

that's that. That is fundamentally a different

56:52

feeling than having a meaningful connection with

56:54

us. One of them. So

56:57

open. And really happy

56:59

for him. I miss you and

57:01

it's coming to complicated really

57:03

fast from within a few months.

57:06

The. Pair learns the and Somone

57:08

is Hiv positive. And

57:11

they people to get really hard it.

57:14

This is a very different situation in

57:16

nineteen anyone than a diagnosis today and

57:18

twenty twenty four, but like so just

57:20

to set the scene. There. Are

57:23

Aids drugs in Nineteen Eighty One? Easy

57:25

T was approved by the Us to

57:27

a in March of Nice and Eighty

57:29

Seven, But the real breakthrough isn't going

57:31

to come until the beginning of Nineteen

57:34

Ninety Six. With. The introduction

57:36

of Park which is an

57:38

acronym for highly Active. Anti

57:41

Retroviral therapy. And.

57:44

A year after hard to get combination therapy and

57:46

we're still using a version of combination therapies to

57:48

that of But of Course and Saw and towards

57:50

can't they don't know that it's thanks in any

57:53

one. It feels very scary and very bleak. My.

57:56

Brain as is very. simple thing

57:58

with say think probably a lot of ours do,

58:00

where if I'm reading something about, you know, people

58:04

in World War II and like the end of

58:06

1944, I'm like, Oh, you got to hang on.

58:08

It's just a few months to go. And it's

58:10

like, but they don't know that. Like

58:13

nobody in history knows where they are

58:15

in history generally. Well, right. We think

58:17

of the real kind of like the

58:19

tragedy, the highest number of deaths in

58:21

the US is happening in the 1980s.

58:24

But it's not true. It's happening in this period

58:26

in the early 1990s. And

58:29

those peak years are

58:31

higher than everything else combined. This is the

58:33

era where people are going to more than

58:35

one funeral a week. 100,000 people are going

58:39

to die in New York City. I

58:41

think there's still like lots of

58:43

HIV stigma today, it persists the

58:46

kind of long tail of the

58:48

memory of HIV as this boogie

58:50

man continues. But the reality

58:52

today is of course, very, very different. Now,

58:55

people are having basically a

58:57

normal life expectancy with HIV.

59:00

It's like a diagnosis like

59:02

diabetes. We also know that if

59:04

someone's HIV positive, but receiving treatment,

59:06

the odds are we can get their viral

59:08

load down to basically zero so that they

59:11

can't transmit the untransmittable.

59:15

And at the same time, we also have the introduction of prep, right

59:17

in the last 10 years, a drug

59:19

that HIV negative people take,

59:21

which makes it very unlikely

59:23

to transmit to become HIV

59:25

positive. So in

59:27

the global north, now, we

59:30

have a very different relationship to

59:32

HIV than George

59:34

and Anselmo had toward AIDS

59:37

in 1991. Maybe I'm saying

59:39

the obvious point, but it's just I think

59:41

it's worth remarking on because this diagnosis is

59:44

going to be it's going

59:46

to dominate their next two years together. I

59:49

think the seemingly obvious is often the thing we

59:51

need to talk about the most because if

59:53

you think you understand something, it can become, you

59:55

know, you can grow a kind of callous that

59:58

allows you to not think about it. It's

1:00:01

a different mentality than

1:00:03

it's easy to access without

1:00:05

being asked to remember or

1:00:07

to learn what it felt like a little

1:00:09

bit. Yeah, yeah. And

1:00:13

of course it's not all misery. So during this period,

1:00:16

George and Anselmo are living together, first

1:00:18

in a house in Santa Barbara,

1:00:22

and then George buys this house in Beverly Hills,

1:00:24

tears it down, and replaces

1:00:26

it with this modern glass

1:00:28

mansion, balconies, beautiful

1:00:31

garden. And

1:00:33

he fills it with orchids. And

1:00:35

Anselmo, on the phone, calling his friends back

1:00:38

in Brazil, he tells them how

1:00:40

happy he is, how much he loves George, and

1:00:42

how much he loves the house. They

1:00:45

get a dog, a golden retriever

1:00:47

named Hippie. That's

1:00:51

really cute. So around this time,

1:00:54

we're now in the fall of 1991. On

1:00:58

the 24th of November, 1991, Freddie Mercury announces that

1:01:00

he has AIDS. He's

1:01:04

bedridden, he's going blind, and

1:01:07

he dies the next day. Oh

1:01:09

my God. And they call

1:01:11

George Michael for a quote. And

1:01:14

here's what he says. This is his

1:01:16

later recollection. He says, I remember

1:01:19

my publicist phoning me to tell me that

1:01:21

Freddie Mercury had died and they wanted a

1:01:23

quote from me. I remember I was

1:01:25

trying to give her the quote, and I was crying.

1:01:27

I mean, bless him, I

1:01:29

was really sad that Freddie had passed away.

1:01:31

But of course, I was crying about somebody

1:01:34

else entirely. I mean, I imagine

1:01:36

it's like there's this, you know, there's this

1:01:38

rising tide, and you're stuck

1:01:41

on the beach. And it's also like, if

1:01:43

it can get Freddie, it can

1:01:45

get anybody. Yeah. So that's

1:01:47

November, 1991. And

1:01:50

surviving members decide they're going to have a

1:01:52

giant concert and it's going to be a

1:01:54

fundraiser to raise money for HIV. And

1:01:57

that happens in April of 1991. 1992

1:02:00

so about six months later So

1:02:03

Queen performs as like essentially the backing

1:02:05

band and it's a parade

1:02:08

of vocalists taking Freddy's parts He

1:02:11

ends up performing three songs. He sings. These are

1:02:13

the days of our lives He

1:02:15

thinks somebody to love and he

1:02:17

comes that the concert ends

1:02:19

with Liza

1:02:21

Minnelli singing a completely

1:02:26

It's wonderful, but so strange version of

1:02:28

we are the champions. I Love

1:02:36

Liza Minnelli to death and

1:02:38

I think she knows exactly how funny she is

1:02:40

or she wouldn't have been so good on Arrested

1:02:42

Development and that's So funny

1:02:44

to imagine like as the as the

1:02:47

concert is ending. She's singing We are

1:02:49

the champions George comes out and grabs

1:02:51

her around the shoulders and the two

1:02:53

are rocking and swaying and I

1:02:57

love it. Okay. Um, I I'm of two

1:02:59

minds here about whether to show you The

1:03:03

quote about what he was thinking when he was singing first.

1:03:06

Let's do the quote first If

1:03:08

you think you're like dipping dipping your toe in

1:03:10

in the shallow end, I think

1:03:13

you're wrong, but here you go He

1:03:17

says For many

1:03:19

months. I was kind of sworn to secrecy

1:03:21

by Anselmo I went out there knowing I

1:03:23

had to do two things. I had to

1:03:26

honor Freddie Mercury and I had to pray

1:03:28

for Anselmo So it meant so

1:03:30

much to me all in that one performance. I'm

1:03:32

so proud of the fact that I held on to that feeling

1:03:35

Because I wanted to die inside It

1:03:38

was just overwhelming for me and I think what

1:03:40

I did was turn in one of the best

1:03:42

performances of my career Wow, and I

1:03:44

agree with him. I do think it is one of the best

1:03:46

performances of his career It's interesting

1:03:48

to think about being this vessel for public

1:03:52

Mourning right and for a band mourning

1:03:55

and for the community the home music community

1:03:58

Everybody mourning this person and who

1:04:00

talks so many lies. And at the same

1:04:02

time, he's thinking about how he found his

1:04:04

somebody to love and he doesn't know what's

1:04:07

gonna happen now. This is the experience of

1:04:09

mourning. How does one, in a way

1:04:11

it's like, this is perfectly

1:04:14

what Stadium Rock is about.

1:04:17

It is about a shared experience,

1:04:19

communal experience. To

1:04:21

have the sort of

1:04:24

Freddie Mercury Tribute concert be

1:04:26

this thing where there's 100,000 people singing

1:04:30

the songs that he sang

1:04:33

back at the band. Sometimes

1:04:36

I guess like look at humans and I'm like,

1:04:38

I love us. We

1:04:41

also like really favor those moments. We

1:04:45

got one of them and it was in April of 1992, okay. Listen,

1:04:50

I don't know what happens when you die. We

1:04:53

know that in the long run, our

1:04:55

molecules get broken up and

1:04:57

go back into the universe. And

1:04:59

what happens to our voice is like, as

1:05:03

far as we know, our voice goes silent.

1:05:05

But in this moment,

1:05:08

it's almost like Freddie Mercury's voice

1:05:11

has been broken up. It's

1:05:13

in the throat of George Michael and

1:05:15

Annie Lennox and Lord

1:05:17

Helper, Liza Minnelli as well. Yeah.

1:05:21

And also in the throats of 100,000 people enjoying

1:05:25

this kind of communal experience of mourning.

1:05:28

Yeah. You can feel

1:05:30

people coming together to create something

1:05:34

just in terms of the musical power in the

1:05:37

room feels bigger than

1:05:39

what it ever could have been otherwise. It's

1:05:42

also this moment of honesty. Freddie

1:05:44

Mercury comes out right before he

1:05:46

dies. And the band

1:05:48

has this enormous concert as an

1:05:51

AIDS fundraiser. It's

1:05:53

like turning to the camera and saying,

1:05:55

what has been going on? And not to

1:05:58

bring Reagan into all of this, but as I... as

1:06:00

I always like to mention, it's a, 1987

1:06:03

was a time when, in America, when

1:06:06

the White House had done nothing

1:06:08

to acknowledge AIDS, and so a sitcom had

1:06:11

to do it. And, you

1:06:13

know, you were getting potentially

1:06:15

public health information from Delta Burke, and

1:06:17

she might've been the best source available

1:06:19

to you. And so, you know,

1:06:22

it does fall to artists in

1:06:25

times of a moral vacuum. It's

1:06:28

hard to overestimate the failure

1:06:30

of American politicians in this

1:06:33

moment. $800 million

1:06:35

package is passed by

1:06:37

Congress, and it never

1:06:39

gets implemented and never gets spent. People

1:06:42

were fundraising for

1:06:44

research, research that

1:06:46

should've been funded by governments,

1:06:50

and for hospice care and

1:06:52

for treatment, things that

1:06:54

should've been paid for by the institutions,

1:06:58

the institutions that we should rightly be able

1:07:00

to depend on. And

1:07:02

we were unable to depend on them. In

1:07:05

that concert footage, you've

1:07:07

got George, and he's

1:07:09

wearing a big old AIDS pen, right?

1:07:11

The like red ribbon. And

1:07:13

it's not just him, it's also, it's like

1:07:15

the biggest stars in the world. It's Elton

1:07:19

John and David Bowie, and

1:07:22

they're all saying the same thing. They

1:07:24

don't have to, they don't have to preach. They don't

1:07:26

have to evangelize in that moment. Their

1:07:29

presence is saying, hey, we

1:07:33

gotta get it together on this, you know? And

1:07:35

it is profoundly moving for George as well.

1:07:38

Like after this concert, he

1:07:40

basically cannibalizes the record he's working

1:07:43

on, like what would've been

1:07:45

Listen Without Prejudice Volume 2, and

1:07:47

he gives the best tracks of it to AIDS

1:07:50

fundraiser compilation albums. Like

1:07:52

his peers are giving remixes or

1:07:54

like previously recorded tracks, and

1:07:57

he's giving his best work, including

1:07:59

the song, too funky, which is going to turn

1:08:01

out to be a big hit for him. And

1:08:04

as a result of this, Listen

1:08:06

Without Prejudice, volume two basically dies on

1:08:08

the paper. Instead, he releases an EP

1:08:11

called Five Live, which

1:08:14

includes this live version of Somebody

1:08:16

to Love, and These Are

1:08:18

the Days of Our Lives, and is a

1:08:20

fundraiser for the Phoenix Mercury Trust, and

1:08:22

is a number one record in England. I

1:08:25

love that. And he's going to be doing

1:08:28

work fundraising around HIV

1:08:30

and AIDS for most of the rest

1:08:33

of his life. In

1:08:35

the year that followed, Anselmo got

1:08:37

sicker and sicker. He thinned,

1:08:40

he became frail. He

1:08:42

lost mobility. On

1:08:44

March 26, 1993,

1:08:47

Anselmo has a brain hemorrhage, and

1:08:50

he dies. Were they

1:08:52

aware that they were in his last days

1:08:54

or that he seemed to be

1:08:56

holding steady? He was sick. Like, there's

1:08:58

no doubt he was he was quite sick in February

1:09:01

and March of 1993. And

1:09:04

he's getting treatment in in Rio. He's in

1:09:07

Brazil. And George is living

1:09:09

mostly in Los Angeles. And in

1:09:11

the date, like they're talking on the phone. But

1:09:14

George doesn't fly down to Rio to be

1:09:16

with him in his last days. And

1:09:19

he's not there when he dies. And he

1:09:22

doesn't attend the funeral. He's later

1:09:24

going to say he was worried about

1:09:26

turning Anselmo's medical care and last days

1:09:28

into a tabloid spectacle. And what he

1:09:30

really wanted was for Anselmo to have

1:09:32

peace. I

1:09:34

find that awful to think about having

1:09:37

to make that decision based on on

1:09:39

that. I don't know. Yeah, I guess whatever it

1:09:41

would add to the grief to have not been able to

1:09:43

be there. It's a lot

1:09:45

to reckon with. A few days

1:09:47

after the funeral, George does fly down. And he

1:09:51

goes privately within Anselmo's mother to

1:09:53

the grave. The day

1:09:55

after he goes to the grave, he

1:09:58

writes a letter to Leslie his Mother.

1:10:00

And. Comes out as gay. Well.

1:10:03

Maybe there's something about like time is

1:10:05

precious but I also think the something

1:10:08

about like I'm hurting so much right

1:10:10

now and the only way that you

1:10:12

can understand. Why I'm in so

1:10:14

much pain is by telling you this thing is

1:10:16

that I have been keeping a secret for cinema.

1:10:19

Yeah, I think he's doing. and in part to get

1:10:21

it off his chest, and in part because he needs

1:10:23

support in that moment. And what happens.

1:10:26

Jack endlessly love and support him

1:10:29

throughout his entire life. They're not

1:10:31

estranged, they continue to have a

1:10:33

relationship. Yeah. You know,

1:10:36

Especially Jack. Jack had been telling him

1:10:38

he was gonna be such a failure

1:10:40

when he was a teenager and. When.

1:10:42

We amazon when Erica where

1:10:44

Jack finally says I was

1:10:46

wrong. You are a

1:10:48

big success! It

1:10:51

will be really weird to try and keep

1:10:53

claiming he wasn't that. Bad.

1:10:57

It's like for all the rest of

1:10:59

us, all it takes is a sold

1:11:01

out stadium sewer for your parents to

1:11:03

finally be like okay yeah that he's

1:11:05

like when are you gonna be on

1:11:07

us stamps. After

1:11:09

right after and somos das.

1:11:12

Tony Parsons who's a former friend

1:11:14

and ally of towards Michael. Cells.

1:11:17

The Story to the British Press. It's

1:11:20

published as a three part

1:11:22

special over three days posting

1:11:24

exclusive access to the Popstars

1:11:26

personal life. And summers

1:11:28

described as. A. Good looking

1:11:31

Brazilian. And the great love

1:11:33

of his life. Of an

1:11:35

accurate. Person's. Starts to

1:11:37

sort of saying that George's gay, but

1:11:39

it's all there on the page. Heartbreaking.

1:11:43

Maybe a bit fuzzy? sadness.

1:11:46

Despair. Reduced. To

1:11:48

a spa. She had my man. i

1:11:50

mean how lying after and summers death as

1:11:52

the scamming there's a break it's not it's

1:11:55

not like immediately in the months and like

1:11:57

in the weeks afterwards but still yeah it's

1:11:59

sam On the one hand, did

1:12:01

anyone need to hear that? And on the

1:12:03

other hand, yes, we needed

1:12:05

to hear that, but we needed to hear it from

1:12:07

George. Right. And what, I mean, what's his

1:12:10

reaction to it? George is gonna dedicate

1:12:12

his next album in 1995 to Ensalmo. And

1:12:15

he says that the

1:12:17

Parsons tabloid special

1:12:19

plus his dedication to Ensalmo in

1:12:21

the record sleeve is the

1:12:24

equivalent of his coming out. That he understands that

1:12:26

to be, he is now an out gay celebrity.

1:12:29

I think most of us don't see it that way,

1:12:32

but he does. He feels

1:12:34

like he has been out, like basically

1:12:36

that the veil has been pulled back. Does

1:12:39

his record label freak out about this?

1:12:41

What happens in that respect? Stay

1:12:44

tuned for the second part. Yeah.

1:12:46

Thank you. Because

1:12:49

in 1993, he's going to go to court

1:12:51

with Sony to try to get out of

1:12:53

his record deal. And

1:12:56

one of the things that's gonna come to light as

1:12:58

part of that lawsuit is that

1:13:00

the senior executives at Sony in America

1:13:03

have been referring to George Michael

1:13:06

as that F-bomb client of

1:13:08

yours to George's

1:13:10

agent. Yeah. Well,

1:13:12

it might be time for new

1:13:15

management. For

1:13:17

a new record label. Yeah, he's gonna try to get out

1:13:19

of it. And

1:13:22

you know what? He looks so hot when he has to

1:13:24

testify. No. There

1:13:28

should be like a courtroom look compilation book

1:13:33

of like, yeah, you know? Cause it's a whole

1:13:35

genre. It's really hard

1:13:37

to succeed within and the lighting, terrible. Put

1:13:39

him on the cover. He

1:13:42

really knew what he was doing with that. And

1:13:44

that's where we'll leave George today. He's

1:13:47

in a Catholic cemetery on

1:13:50

a hill, standing at the grave

1:13:52

of his dead lover with

1:13:54

his lover's mother in, and

1:13:57

it's almost hometown of Petropolis in

1:13:59

Brazil. And

1:14:24

that was our episode. Thank you

1:14:26

so much for listening. Thank you for being

1:14:29

with us here today. Thank

1:14:31

you to Marcus McCann, author of Part

1:14:33

Cruising, what happens when we wander off

1:14:35

the path, for being our wonderful guest.

1:14:39

Thank you to Colin Fleming for editing

1:14:41

help. And thank you so much

1:14:43

as always to Carolyn Kendert for producing.

1:14:46

Thank you so much for being here. We'll

1:14:48

have part two for you in a couple of weeks. Now

1:14:51

get out there and plant something. And

1:14:54

if you're in the Southern Hemisphere, you can plant garlic.